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I certainly wouldn't call a tyre fitter or a car salesman a 'professional'. Someone who has a couple of engineering degrees and CEng. status is a professional - not some young lad who scraped one GCSE. Let's be honest, anyone with any nous wouldn't be either a car salesman or a tyre fitter - they are both awful jobs. (Before anyone 'has a go' at me I used to sell s/hand cars and do service repair work - but couldn't stand the **** that goes with these jobs and worked my way up through university to a PhD in engineering and a proper 'professional' job in the industry).
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Aprilia has hit the nail on the head there. I worked in garages until I realised there were much better career options outside the trade. Still working towards my PhD though! :-)
My opinion is to find a good independent, where your concerns will be listened to. Good independent garages don't need to advertise because they get their custom via word of mouth recommendations. (Makes them a bit harder to track down!)
I'm sure if you tell the forum which county you are in, some good tips may follow.
number_cruncher
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I agree with Aprilia and Number Cruncher. I'm also a degree qualified engineer and it drives me mad the number of grease monkeys etc calling themselves engineers, technicians and professionals!
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\"Nothing less than 8 cylinders will do\"
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I dont have a degree.am qualified mechanic..Since 73.Agree with all the above..
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Steve
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Hang on a mo....
This thread may be going off topic.
The initial question was how to deal with individuals providing a service when you feel that they are not doing the job properly. The introduction of higher education qualifications etc is perhaps not relevent here. That is a different discussion about the use of the word "Professional".
To try to answer Doctorchris's question, I think I would question why certain jobs had been missed out, then assert your position that you are the paying customer and you want the job done properly.
If you don't get the response you desire, a polite request to speak to the supervisor, branch manager may be in order. A prase such as "With respect, I understand your position but I don't agree with it. If it is policy to do it that way then I would like to speak to your manager/supervisor to ensure I receive the service I believe I am paying for. Would you please point me in his direction - Thank you."
The common repsonse is usually "Well he'll just tell you what I have told you" to which my usual response is "Fine, but I still want to speak to him" Always remain polite but firm. If you treat the individual with a high level of respect then he can't accuse you of being rude. If you still get no joy then escalate it through the firm or don't take the car there any more.
Hugo
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Just had a "we know best" discussion with a service receptionist at the local Citroen dealer. I doubt I'll hold your interest if I give a blow-by-blow account of the incident but it boils down to being promised a particular type of towing relay fitted to my Citroen C8, me researching it to check the salesman could provide it and it would work, and then being told by a condescending service receptionist that they couldn't fit it after all. "It's got multiplex wiring, sir". I protested that I had been promised the relay and that I had researched the project but the wall of ignorance was just too thick. Irritated, I returned home and wrote a stiff letter to the general manager setting out the facts and asking for a meeting to resolve it. My reward was a handsome apology and a free 12,000 mile service.
Hawkeye
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Stranger in a strange land
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I know exactly what you mean! I once had a most frustrating Sunday morning in a fast fit emporium.The brakes started to grind and I knew the pads had worn to the backing and because I was quite a bit from home I decided to pop into one of these fast fit emporiums and get a new set of pads fitted before things got worse. It went a bit like this.....
I've got a grinding from the front os.
Fitter removes front NS (only slightly out)
'Seems OK sir'
Yes but it was the other side.....
I'll have a look in a minute - must fix a puncture for this chap - have a seat in the waiting room.
About half an hour passes and eventually fellamelad decides to take off front os wheel.
Your pads are worn down to the backing sir.
That's what I thought....can you fit new pads?
Well I can't sir, you see I'm not trained to work on ABS.
But this car doesn't have ABS (early Xantia)...
Oh yes, Sir, you'll find that all these Citroens have ABS
Not this one.....
I'll get my foreman to have a look when he's clear.
Another 30 mins spent in the waiting room.
Foreman - bad news sir, you'll need 2 new discs and a set of pads. One disc is scored and we have to renew them in sets...
How much will that cost?
(Frantic tapping on computer keyboard . Can't remember the exact sum but it was something astronomical like £400)
That's a lot of money - would you be able to do it today anyway?
Oh no sir, we don't keep parts like that in stock.....
Thank you and good day..
Following day, I bought one new disc and a set of pads (the other disc was absolutely 'as new') Fitted the lot myself. Cost was about £50.
Not being trained to work on ABS is one thing - not being trained to know the difference is something else!
AAARGH!
Graeme
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Due to problems with high blood pressure etc. I've recently been a regular visitor to my local GP surgery. Lots of new doctors learning the trade there ! Highly trained and qualified they are - and yet each one makes a different diagnosis, and prescribes different drugs. I don't trust 'em !!
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I think you may be touching on a wider subject here. I get back to the point eventually, please bear with me!
If you read the technical part of this forum, you will find disagreement on virtually any subject you choose. Diagnosis by human being rather than robot.
I've been working on vehicles, reading about engineering and science, and experimenting (playing!) for over 20 years. I still am only scratching the surface - the more you find, the more you realise that you don't know.
I don't see why it should be any different for quacks. OK, they are clever, and lurk in university for 7 years, but that doesn't mean they know everything.
In answer to the original post - I always ask the doctor lots of wide open questions. Why is this? How has it been caused? Why is your prescription appropriate?, etc, etc. Unfortunately, I think the average mechanic would take open questions as confirmation that you as a punter know nothing, and can therefore be told anything.
I suppose research is good and is your best armament. When I had to send SWMBO in to have a bearing changed, I prepared her thoroughly. I had diagnosed the bearing previously, I asked her to go in, and ask for the front passenger bearing to be fitted, and that under no circumstances were they to even consider anything else.
number_cruncher
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As far as doctors are concerned, after ten minutes on the internet you're likely to know more about any given problem than the doctor is. The same goes for car trouble. The wonderful thing about the internet is that you get a broad set of views on a subject and can make up your own mind.
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Erm, if I may, a brief caveat:
Just because its on the internet doesn't necessarily mean its true. One must be discerning in what one chooses to believe.
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Agreed. But just because a doctor or mechanic tells you something doesn't necessarily mean it's true either. Better to get a range of views and form your opinion based on those, and your own experience...
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I suppose research is good and is your best armament. When I
>>had to send SWMBO in to have a bearing changed, I prepared her thoroughly.
Hope Mrs number_cruncher is better now. Did she have a general anaesthetic or alocal one? :-)
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Alyn Beattie
I'm sane, it's the rest of the world that's mad.
{It helps if you use the quoting system provided when replying, rather than putting your own quotation marks in and end up hiding the words. Amended, btw. DD}
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I suppose research is good and is your best armament. When I had to send SWMBO in to have a bearing changed, I prepared her thoroughly.
Hope Mrs number_cruncher is better now. Did she have a general anaesthetic or a local one? :-)
Made a mess of first post sorry
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Alyn Beattie
I\'m sane, it\'s the rest of the world that\'s mad.
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I suppose research is good and is your best armament. When I had to send SWMBO in to have a bearing changed, I prepared her thoroughly.
I'm relieved to learn that it wasn't just my weird mind that went down that avenue, Alyn!
Could we be related?
Use it up : Wear it out : Make do : Do without
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SWMBO is fine thanks! Her bearing is quite as one would expect!
number_cruncher
Note to self - check posts for sense before clicking! Doh!
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Due to problems with high blood pressure et
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i posted a reply in similar vein - tonque firmly in cheek. but it was edited out in to the ether.
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Now look here, being a doctor involves a long and complicated training, so no disparaging comments please.
Oh, OK, as this is a forum of discrete and friendly people I shall let you in on some of that training. Now, to suceed as a doctor repeat after me "It is a virus, there's a lot of it about. Take 2 Paracetamols and call me in the morning if you are no better."
it also helps if you can learn the new spelling of Amoxicillin for those tricky occasions where you can't get out of issuing a prescription.
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A mechanic was removing a cylinder head from the motor of a Harley Davidson when he spotted a world-famous heart surgeon in his shop. The heart surgeon was waiting for the service manager to come look at his bike.
The mechanic shouted across the garage, "Hey Doc, can I ask you a question?"
The famous surgeon, a bit surprised, walked over to the mechanic working on the motorcycle.
The mechanic straightened up, wiped his hands on a rag, and asked, "So, Doc look at this engine. I also can open it up, take valves out, fix 'em, put in new parts and, when I finish, this will work just like a new one.
So how come I get a pittance and you get the really big money?when you and I are doing basically the same work?'
The surgeon paused, smiled, leaned over, and whispered to the mechanic, "Try doing it while it's running!"
Kevin...
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A mechanic was removing a cylinder head from the motor of a Harley Davidson when he spotted a world-famous heart surgeon in his shop. The heart surgeon was waiting for the service manager to come look at his bike. The mechanic shouted across the garage, "Hey Doc, can I ask you a question?" The famous surgeon, a bit surprised, walked over to the mechanic working on the motorcycle. The mechanic straightened up, wiped his hands on a rag, and asked, "So, Doc look at this engine. I also can open it up, take valves out, fix 'em, put in new parts and, when I finish, this will work just like a new one. So how come I get a pittance and you get the really big money?when you and I are doing basically the same work?' The surgeon paused, smiled, leaned over, and whispered to the mechanic, "Try doing it while it's running!" Kevin...
Don't they actually stop the heart during surgery though?
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Now look here, being a doctor involves a long and complicated training, so no disparaging comments please. Oh, OK, as this is a forum of discrete and friendly people I shall let you in on some of that training. Now, to suceed as a doctor repeat after me "It is a virus, there's a lot of it about. Take 2 Paracetamols and call me in the morning if you are no better." it also helps if you can learn the new spelling of Amoxicillin for those tricky occasions where you can't get out of issuing a prescription.
Veterinary medicine operates along similar lines...a typical consultation proceeds as follows;
Client (2 legs, credit card) places patient (4 legs, teeth & claws) on consulting room table.
Client informs vet that patient is 'not himself'/'off his food'/'under the weather'/'off colour' (delete as applicable). Patient wags tail.
Vet examines patient, takes temperature etc. and finds nothing abnormal.
Vet injects patient with Synulox (antiiotic) and Rimadyl (steroid), pats patient on head, pronounces patient cured, tells client to come back in a week if still concerned and present bill for £60.
Simple!
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OK, to answer the original questions...
1. Don't use fast-fit type places if at all possible. Try using a decent independent, preferably one run by a middle-older aged guy rather than someone with spiked-up hair and body piercings.
2. Be polite to salesmen, but ignore anything they say unless they are prepared to put it in writing. Any technical/spec details etc should be in writing in the manfrs literature.
Expecting the average car salesman to know about car technology is a bit like expecting a Dixon's salesman to be able to explain the finer points of MPEG motion compensation algorithms for digital video.
Incidentally, the best sales experience I've ever had has been at a place called 'Availablecars' near Nottingham. I've gone along there a few times as an 'expert' with people who've wanted to buy cars from them. The prices are pretty good and there is very little pressure. They have some saleswomen who help 'facilitate' the sale but don't claim to know anything about the cars - a nice honest approach if you ask me and much better than having some stuffed-shirt who insists on calling you 'sir' in a very condencending way.
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I am a retired engineer (although electrical), I also look rather ancient, and perhaps vacant. I too hate the condescending attitude of salesmen and mechanics. I have rebuilt many cars in the past under the tuition of expert mechanics, and that has taught me to discern when people are talking garbage. The chap who sold me my present car is very personable and pleasant, but I observed him going to cars which were due to be handed over that day and starting the engines, just to check, and then stopping them.
Top of the range models, too.
I don't believe in long service intervals (12000 miles etc.), and when the service manager says, "But it doesn't need the oil changing, it was only serviced 5000 miles ago". I say "Indulge me!" I hope that they actually do it and not just charge me, I rarely check.
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>the number of grease monkeys etc calling themselves engineers, technicians and professionals!<
So Prince Charles was right then?
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I also agree. Finished my degree and M.Phil but couldn't face writing up my Ph.D. (ex-research chemist working vaguely in IT).
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For anyone who owns a Citroen the term "professional" only applies to Citroen dealers when the word is changed to a phrase "professionally incompetent"..
imo. of course...
madf
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"Be polite to salesmen, but ignore anything they say unless they are prepared to put it in writing. Any technical/spec details etc should be in writing in the manfrs literature."
>Any technical/spec details etc should be in writing in the manfrs literature<
Even the manufacturers specn is open to change by the time the car is delivered. So you cannot even rely on that!
So the only answer is get it in writing and witnessed....... (and the small print in the sales contract probably disallows that anyway!).
pmh (was peter)
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