I was wondering if anyone had ever taken a dealership to court and represented themselves?
I'm facing an uphill battle but having fought this far I may as well follow it through to the end. I bought a little FIAT Panda new from a dealership and followed the warranty requirements to the letter. The car developed a misfire and by 12,000 miles I reported this to the garage but they were unable to find a fault.
This went on, each time the car went in they couldnt find a fault, they even had it overnight once and....no fault!
Then at just before 48,000 mile service it went back in an again I reported the misfire and also a smell from the engine. They were unable to find a fault...or so they said...I have now had a copy of the mechanics notes stating...oil in the throttle body...cleaned out..customer should monitor...Unfortunately the finding was not reported to me nor was I told to monitor anything..that said I wouldnt know where to start to look for the throttle body...
Then when my car just went outside of the warranty mileage the engine started misfiring really badly..they took it in and looked at it and found oil in the throttle body...this prompted them to carry out a pressure test and they discovered that the oil was coming from the valves....blah blah (technical speak) and now they say it needs a new engine or an engine rebuild.....I believe they should have carried out this pressure test back at 48,000 miles....or before...
I was completely gutted as FIAT wouldnt even offer me any goodwill towards the cost of the repair/new engine.....and described it as "fair wear and tear"..I decided to have the car independently assessed and although they did warn me to be prepared for a wear and tear pb but they found that the problem of oil in the throttle body was down to the valves leaking (past seals) for quite some time...(hence misfire from before 12,000 miles)
Sorry if this is going on.....hope you are still with me....so I am now faced with paying for a massive repair which will end up costing more than the car is now worth or attempting to fight my own corner and at least getting some contribution from the dealership...who I believe didnt investigate the engine problem well enough..and so missed the opportunity for me to repair it under warranty.
So back to my question...have you ever represented yourself in court...I am a Geologist so know absolutely nothing about engines (except the oil, water, levels and tyre pressures)! and I am afraid that I will be bamboozled with technical speak from their expert witness and end up looking like a complete....well blonde (no offence intended to blondes...I am one myself!!)
If you have represented yourself do you have any advice? I think I will just be me, get all my notes together beforehand and explain what has happened. Its not iminent though...have been without my car for 4 months and have a court date of March 2010!!! so have plenty of time to prepare!
Any comments gratefully received!
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Why are you taking the risk of representing yourself in court? If the upside is a new engine, plus labour, and the downside is you paying their costs, then perhaps it's worth reducing the chance of the downside and increasing the chance of the upside by being represented by a lawyer?
How much trust would you place in a geological survey that had been done by someone with just a law degree?
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How much trust would you place in a geological survey that had been done by someone with just a law degree?
Well put!
Have you tried writing to the FIAT UK MD?
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If you have represented yourself do you have any advice? >>
use forum search to find the Corsa camshaft failure threads posted under the name "pete and ed"
Why are you taking the risk of representing yourself in court? ... How much trust would you place in a geological survey that had been done by someone with just a law degree? >>
In reply to oldnotbold:
Just one big difference. This website:
www.moneyclaim.gov.uk/csmco2/index.jsp
Is there a simialr one for geological surveys?
Go on be bold, you know you want to!
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"Just one big difference. This website:
www.moneyclaim.gov.uk/csmco2/index.jsp"
If the OP has a court date of March 2010 then it's not in Small Claims, I'd expect.
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If the OP has a court date of March 2010 then it's not in Small Claims, I'd expect. >>
We shall wait for the OP to clarify which court process he is using.
If it is not the small claims track, then there is information available from the HMCourts main web site for the middling "fast" and large "multi" track claims:
www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/infoabout/claims/index...m
www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/courtfinder/forms/ex30...f
www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/courtfinder/forms/ex30...f
There are three routes called tracks (small claims track; fast track; and multi-track):
Small Claims Track – generally for lower value and less complex claims with a value
of up to £5,000 although there are some exceptions. Further information is available
in the leaflet ‘The Small Claims Track’
Fast Track – claims with a value of between £5,000 and £25,000
Multi-Track – very complex claims with a value of £25,000 or more
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you say you have a technical report,does this cover things like compression readings?
you say car parked up? why? did it seize?
too many unanswered bits (its difficult on a forum i know ) to give an answer to without looking hearing and seeing the independant report
i will add that these are simple engines though and a full rebuild from an FER member would be quite reasonable
yes i would go to court if it is indeed a dealer fault, but i would want full technical assistance from say my aa membership to assist me
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Fanny,
What type of hearing is this?
It doesn't sound like small claims because of the long lead time.
If it's an 'old fashioned' civil hearing, the chances are the loser will have to pay the costs of both sides.
Great if you win, but if you lose and the other side have briefed a barrister - add one or two other bits and pieces - the costs could amount to several thousand pounds.
As regards representing yourself and being bamboozled by technical speak, there's nothing to stop you calling an expert witness to handle that side of things.
What you need is someone who can demonstrate they have the qualifications and experience to comment who will say that in their opinion the valve problem was almost certainly present when you reported the misfire at 12,000 miles.
You do not have to give evidence yourself, you could prepare a statement and put that in as evidence, although you would then be open to cross-examination.
I reckon your best hope is the other side believe you are keen/mad/rich enough to press ahead with this case and they offer some form of settlement.
Edited by ifithelps on 29/09/2009 at 18:02
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I can't really help with advice to the OP but just wanted to say best of luck, and hope you take them to the cleaners.
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Your problem will be evidence. What evidence do you have that the car misfired during the warranty period?
If none, then you may as well withdraw your claim.
The Judge will have to weigh the evidence of the claimant and the defendant, so you better make sure you have plenty and not just your non-expert opinion or hearsay.
What is more, the Defendant has the right to challenge any evidence which you present, so you must make sure this is possible (such as by making sure authors of written evidence are present) otherwise it will be ignored.
The Judge's job is not to feel sorry for you or identify with your predicament, but to gather the relevant and admissible facts from both parties and apply the laws to these facts in order to reach a decision, so it is best to verse yourself with the law so that you know which facts are crucial to find and present.
Also remember that in civil cases, the burden of proof required to win is much less than in criminal cases. The former being 'on balance' and the latter being 'beyond all reasonable doubt'.
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>>What evidence do you have that the car misfired during the warranty period? <<
He says he reported it several times. There must be a record of that in the notes writtten by the service manager.
If those don't exist then it does look a struggle.
I thought the "small claims" otr whatever it's called now is limited to £5k of damages.
Do you have legal expenses on your insurance (not just motor, check your household policies), even credit cards if you paid that way.
Edited by Nsar on 29/09/2009 at 18:54
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If there is evidence at the dealership that he reported it, it will say "No fault found" which would weaken the claim, not strengthen it.
The judge would see a layperson saying "there is a misfire" and an 'expert' saying "there is not". As evidence, this would tell the judge that there was no misfire. It is as it is, make no bones about that.
Edited by Hamsafar on 29/09/2009 at 19:01
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Fault reported, fault not found, fault still there - sounds like negligence.
But neither of us is the Judge, so our opinion is probably unlikely to help the OP.
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Well, I did get most of the way through a law degree.
Edited by Hamsafar on 29/09/2009 at 19:15
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A little knowledge is a dangerous thing.
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Allegedly Fiat is running a warranty cost saving program - the name of which and discussion of the issue being -`banned` on the marque specific forum. What with it`s heavy dealership and perhaps central office membership.
Edited by oilrag on 29/09/2009 at 19:28
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I thought the "small claims" otr whatever it's called now is limited to £5k of damages. >>
OP does not mention age of the car, but 2006 Panda with 50k miles can be easily bought for under £5000, including a 12 months Fiat approved used warranty.
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48,000 mile old Panda with engine fault . owner tries to sue garage.
I hope he can afford to pay his and the garage's legal bills as odds on he will lose.
Edited by madf on 29/09/2009 at 20:32
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Not much helpful information in this thread.
A modern car engine shouldn't need expensive repairs at 48K miles. On that basis alone it's not fit for purpose.
I too am wondering why this case is in a higher court (is the OP suing for the whole cost of the car - yikes!) where legal argument could get quite involved, but I would have thought a Small Claims Court case would have a good chance of success on the basis of the engine's short life and the reported faults not being dealt with earlier.
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Small Claims Court under Sales of Goods Act (six years etc) would have limited the downside.
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I too am wondering why this case is in a higher court >>
Higher court? - has that been confirmed?
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I too am wondering why this case is in a higher court >> Higher court? - has that been confirmed?
Just to clarify...I am pursuing this in the small claims court as the repairs will be under £5,000...I wouldn't be suing in the high court for a car.
I have received advice from the CAB and followed their advice step by step and this has culminated in me going to the Small Claims Court.
Apologies for not specifying that at the outset.
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Take them to the cleaners, they don't like it up 'em. I would get a lawyer though. Representing yourself can be risky as nerves may play a part on the day.
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I wouldn't! It will probably cost you more than the claim and you won't be able to claim it back if you win or lose.
The small claims court is designed for the ordinary person to have access to justice without representation.
Paperwork preparation and familiarisation is essential. You also need to submit copies of any evidence to the court and the defendant a couple of weeks before, but you should receive letters informing you of this.
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www.bbc.co.uk/watchdog/gotastory/
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I refer back to the honourable gentlemans post of Tue 29 Sep 09 16:15 and the independant report,without this report going to court will be a wasted moment and a lost case ,as of this time fanny hasnt come up with any positive proof that the engine has a manufacturing fault so the gaslight is out in my opinion
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Having been to court (albeit non motoring related), I will say that the £400 per hour that my Barrister cost was the best money I have ever spent. The other party represented themselves and my Barrister destroyed them in five minutes. They lost and had to pay my costs.13K in total.
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I cant afford the cost of a Barrister, it is really not an option. I have now started the small claims court proceedings so I will pursue it to the end.
The misfire is reported on the documentation of the garage each time I took the car in so I will go on them not carrying out further diagnosis given repeated opportunities to do so
They should have carried out a pressure test at 48K when they found oil in the throttle body. They noted the oil in the throttle body on their mechanics report but didnt put it on my invoice or the paperwork handed to me so they missed the opportunity to right this problem under warranty....when they again found oil in the throttle body when the car had gone out of warranty they said and I quote "bleeding oil through breather system into throttlebody, investigation c/o pressure test" so why did they choose not to do the pressure test when the car was under warranty.
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have you had a vacuum test done to ascertain leaky valves?
have you had a compression test done for leaky valves/piston rings
have you being using low grade fuel
have you been using excessive revs on cold start
have you run the car low on oil
these are some of the questions i would be asking for the defence
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Interesting questions
have you had a vacuum test done to ascertain leaky valves? - YES (yes as part of independent assessment)
have you had a compression test done for leaky valves/piston rings - YES (yes as part of independent assessment)
have you being using low grade fuel - 90% of my fills done at local shell garage - which I can prove as keep receipts for tax purposes!
have you been using excessive revs on cold start - no
have you run the car low on oil - no, never, Im quite on the ball with levels and especially tyre pressures.
Fanny (not my real name!)
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Worth contacting :
wchelpdesk@whatcar.com
or
fightback@autoexpress.co.uk
www.carpay.co.uk/public_html/autoexpress25032009.p...f
If the fault on your car is a common fault (a fault commonly known to exist by the car trade, just ask a secondhand car dealer) and you have been using a Fiat dealer to maintain / service the car then either of the above will be interested.
Edited by macavity on 30/09/2009 at 15:13
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Yeah i threated a main VW dealer a couple of years ago. My new passat was nearly wrote off (it should have been actually). drug dealer off his head ploughed into it while parked up.
The repair took 6 weeks through the incompetance of the bodyshop. I wasnt happy gave them car back and told them to sort it. Came back with more faults and ones i had shown previousley not repaired. I arranged a meeting with the dealer principal/who happened to be the owner. I physically took them around the vehicle showed them how incompetant the repairs and the company was, and gave them one last chance. I threated legal action on return of vehicle not satisfactory. It back like new, subsequently i didnt need to go the legal route.
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