Hi,
We have an S-type car that had a leak from around the area of the auto gearbox. The dealer (Jag) looked at the car, and told us the fault was a leaking sump gasket. They gave us a quote to the job then did it at that price.
But; then the leak started again, a week or 2 later, we took the car back, now they have said the sump is slightly distorted and needs to be replaced. After some discussion they dropped their labour rate to 50% and knocked 10% of the part but it still ends up costing more than it should as I am paying for them to do virtually the same thing twice.
I thought it would be reasonably fair to pay for the new sump but get them to the labour free as they initially diagnosed the fault incorrectly, but no go.
How does that stand with the The Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982 that seems to say ?The work has to be carried out with reasonable care and skill, in a reasonable time?,
They did not diagnose the fault correctly so why should I have to pay them to do the job twice? (Albeit once at half price)
How do you balance it against the fact that perhaps it was not the easiest thing to diagnose without taking the sump off (which they did when they changed the gasket) ?
Cheers
Geoff
(First post hello all)
|
Did they charge you a separate amount for the diagnosis, if yes then you can probably claim back the diagnosis fee as it was incorrect, but not the fee for work done.
|
oh to work on cars for a living
i do feel for those guys that do
|
|
|
There was no fee for the diagnosis, they gave me a quote to fix the leak, then I had the gasket replaced, I was happy with that. Then it started to leak again :(
They didn't daignose the fault correctly.
I don't mind paying for the sump, or for the work they did before. Its just them doing almost the same job twice and me paying for the work twice I don't like.
Geoff
|
why didnt you tell them where the leak was then Geoffxpl and then let them fix it for you? rather than getting them to give you a professional opinion that can sometimes be wrong but you agreed to their fix
it is only a car remember
think of it as a washing machine,it might be the pump but then again it could be the woofer
no offence but what do you really want them to do?
|
Fair enough, I just wanted some other people's opinion.
G
Edited by Geoffxpl on 17/04/2009 at 00:03
|
|
|
|
|
Bellboy is a little unsympathetic I think - most customers aren't going to know exactly where an oil leak is coming from. That's what we pay professionals for - particularly in this day and age when everything is much more complex than it used to be.
I suggest you go through the costings carefully with the garage and try to agree an arrangement where you pay for parts and labour once only - i.e. where the first job doesn't overlap with the second. They should see that as fair given that neither party will want to line the pockets of lawyers.
|
avant
i am not unsympathetic im being realist
the garage tried their best of first fix
they failed
they still have overheads
what do you want them to do?
roll over and go bust
i make mistakes weekly where i think ive sorted a problem on a car but my diagnosis was wrong first off,a leak is even harder to find
|
I'm a realist too and I do appreciate that many garages run on low profit margins. But they are in a service industry and part of that 'service' has to be not expecting your customers to pay for your mistakes.
As this seems not to be exactly the same job second time round, that's why I suggested a compromise as opposed to being expected to do the second job totally free of charge.
|
|
|
|
I agree with Bell Boy - garages are in an awkward situation, and I don't envy them.
It's very easy to be wise after the event, or from a distance on a web forum, but, making the call can sometimes not be clear cut. From the story as presented, I don't think the garage have behaved badly or negligently.
|
Worth a chat with trading standards about this and your rights under SOGA.
As said above no customer can be expected to pay for a mistake made by the service supplier. You asked them to fix the leak, they charged you for doing so but didn't fix it.
NC I don't see it as bad behaviour or negligence on the garage's part. The customer just didn't get what he paid for. If one of my customers pays for something not then provided/received for whatever reason then they expect either a refund or for the service to be delivered. That's business, surely, whatever the particular sector?
|
So the garage now say the sump is distorted - is this something they noticed when they replaced the gasket ? If so, they should have said so at the time and given you the option of replacing it at that time.
However, mistakes do get made and it appears that the garage have given you a deal on the second job - it's your decision to accept the offer or push for something more. I would ask them to phone you if there is anything that concerns them while the job is in progress.
|
|
Too many garages , and main dealers at that , are now simply incapable of diagnosing a problem correctly and fixing it. They have a guess and if that fails to cure the problem, they have another guess. Mean time, the customer is paying for each and every guess. It's a win win situation for the service department.
|
|
|
It can be notoriously difficult to pinpoint the exact location of an oil leak. The escaping oil will not only gravitate from the leak source to the lowest point, but airflow under the car tends to blow it about as well. I've misdiagnosed leak sources many times on many cars. It is very easily done.
That said, I understand why you are annoyed, being out of pocket and still having a car with a fault. However, it doesn't sound to me like they have been deliberately negligent or deceitful.
As SteVee says, they've made an offer - it's your choice whether you accept it. It can't hurt to politely haggle though. Given that it's a main dealer that you've probably used for some time(??), you are a dissatisfied customer, and they should be prepared to come to an arrangement with you.
Dealers have room for negotiation on this stuff. My dad got £200 off the fitted price of a Ka catalyst from his local Ford dealer with a few minutes friendly negotiation in a similar situation (other parts fitted, didn't fix fault)
It's a tough one. I can see both sides of it.
Cheers
DP
|
|
Oil leaks are difficult to trace. A sensible garage could use a tracer-dye unless they were sure the sump was leaking via a gasket. One of the issues for replacing a gasket sealed part is checking for trueness. Have they never heard of a straight edge or engineers blue? Beware the next stage: the gearbox, the crankcase seals etc.
|
|
|
Agree the garage has not behaved badly, but why didn't someone there check the sump for distortion when it was removed to change the gasket?
Edit: Posted at the same time as nortones (above).
Edited by ifithelps on 17/04/2009 at 11:18
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
They misdiagnosed the problem and now the problem is identified as the sump. It would have needed a new gasket anyway but I reckon a fair deal would have been a refund of the first jobs labour charge but the rest is down to you.
|
If a garage diagnosed HGF, removed the head and replaced the gasket, and put the head back on without checking the head wasn't distorted, I would say that was a failure of the garage to do a proper job
I don't see why it should be any different with a sump - it would take a couple of minutes to check if there was a distortion.
MVP
|
Cheers for the Info, I will try to negotiare with them a bit more. I still feel a bit hard done by to pay for the same work twice when they made a mistake even if understandable.
Geoff
|
Difficult one this, as it really hinges on what was said prior to them replacing the gasket:
1/ "It's the sump gasket that's leaking, we can replace it for £XXX" ..... OR
2/ "It might be the sump gasket that's leaking. We can try this which will cost £XXX"
Clearly if it was #2 the cost is down to you; if #1 well then I would argue that they should refund the cost of the first job. I take it that you didn't get a quote in writing?
|
When did it start leaking?
there must be a reason for the sump to be mis-shapen, did something hit it, or... was the gearbox serviced/repaired recently?
|
so basically the garage should have stuffed Geoffxpl for a sump in the first place and the appropiate labour rate
would there not be a post saying,"my sump is leaking and the garage would only fit a new sump,why couldnt they have tried a gasket first"
dammed if you do dammed if you dont
as for the same type of thing in any other trade i can only assume the posters have never had anything fixed by a tradesman who cant give a definate price but only an estimate
so
we have no
roofers
builders
tv repairmen
denture fixers
piano tuners
to name but a few on here
|
|
If a tradesman doesn't give me definite price, he doesn't get the job. I'm paying well, for expertise and experience, not amateur night. A sump leak should be a known quantity. Its hardly a major task.
|
as i said then the garage should have just gone for the new part rather than trying a cheaper fix for the customer
no wonder the garage trade are called rip off if they try to repair rather than replace components because 2 weeks later it leaked again
|
Cut and dried in my opinion. They failed.
You don't pay for what they did before.
Pay to have the problem fixed and then claim back the original payment.
They add a percentage to every job to pay for the ones where they fail.
If they are not sure something will fix a problem, they should tell you and explain why they think it is XYZ but say it's not guaranteed to fix the problem. This is what my garage does. He says, I don't know if this is the fix for sure, but if it was my car, I would replaced XYZ first. So I say go ahead.
|
If they are not sure something will fix a problem, they should tell you and explain why they think it is XYZ but say it's not guaranteed to fix the problem. This is what my garage does. He says, I don't know if this is the fix for sure, but if it was my car, I would replaced XYZ first. So I say go ahead.
i certainly dont know a garage man that doesnt say this Hamsafar and this is my point
|
Have read some posts, not all......................BUT.............if a quote was given then they must have quoted to do a specific job!! 'twas NOT an Estimate.
MD
|
To answer a couple of Q?s
When I took it in the first time they said it needed a new gasket; there wasn?t a ?but it might be this or that?? The paper quote is currently misplaced, ( I thought the car was ok) but I have the receipt for the job the first time. In the receipt they have the job ?investigate leak from under vehicle, parts ordered sump gasket?
In terms of when it started to leak there had been a very very slight leak, hardly noticeable, but it got significantly worse in the cold snowy week, first week of Feb. I?m not aware of anything happening to the gearbox, my wife usually drives it and she?s a good driver. Why did it start leaking? Stuff happens sometimes @ 80k.
There was absolutely no ill intent or badness from the garage, they just made a mistake. That?s why their rates are so high, to cover their backside. Similar to many overblown professions that do less important less useful things. What does a good mechanic get paid £15- 20 / hour, less? What does the garage charge hmmmmmm?.., they could do it twice and still not loose money.
Legally they made the mistake therefore in law ( I think) they are liable. The complexity and process of fault diagnosis on something sophisticated that occurs in the real world isn?t really properly represented in law is it?
They fixed the car, I paid them the 50% of the labour and the sump was needed anyway; you can argue till you are blue in the face but life is too short. I was working so my wife picked up the car. It?s part of a big company so I will write further up the food chain.
Cheers
Geoff
|
|
|
Hi Geoff,
I'm with bell boy on this one.
The garage replaced the cheapest and most likely cause of the leak first. In 99.9% of cases the new gasket would have fixed it. If the distortion of the pan had been obvious or it appeared to be damaged I seriously doubt they would not have informed you while it was stripped down. The last thing they want is a P'd off customer.
The alternatives here are to replace every leaking sump pan on the off chance that it may be "slightly" distorted or charge every customer to have the mating surfaces checked with something like a dial gauge. A straight-edge isn't accurate enough and engineers blue would probably "fail" good pans.
I think 50% off labour and 10% off parts is very reasonable in this case. Of course you can keep pushing for a 100% refund for the previous work but don't be surprised if they don't want your business the next time you have a problem.
Kevin...
|
I wouldn't make too much fuss in trying to get more of a rebate on this.
Gaskets need, really, to be replaced with a new sump pan anyway - so you're ahead on that price. You paid over the odds for total labour, yes, but not twice as much because of the 50% reduction in labour rate. It's not inconceivable that even a new sump pan & gasket wouldn't have stopped the leak - sometimes the sump pan & housing can distort & age making even a new sump pan & gasket leaky. I'm also assuming you got your autobox oil replaced twice (free 2nd time around?) so it's had a nice flush through.
On a more general point: if you use them again & don't make too much fuss over this, they may be more likely to give you the 'benefit' in some other circumstance - very often discretion can be used to (your) advantage. It's easier for them to return 'money' in kind than actual folding stuff - bear that in mind.
Next time (maybe when service is due) you might be able to coax a bit more goodwill if you lightly make reference to this occasion rather than stand your ground on SoGA this time .
|
Wise words, woodbines.
I've known such things happen when I worked for a Renault dealer.
The 'nice guy' might get a spare part taken off a new car, rather than being told to wait.
Or if a job takes a lot longer than expected, the workshop foreman might not charge for every last minute.
Or they might be able to offer a loan car two minutes after 'Mr Nasty' was told there were none available.
Difficulty for the OP is he will probably never know he's been looked after, but it certainly happens.
|
|
|
Next time (maybe when service is due) you might be able to coax a bit more goodwill if you lightly make reference to this occasion rather than stand your ground on SoGA this time . >>
And pigs may fly, even.
Geoffxpl: I support your view. Please do take it further up the food chain.
A bird in hand is worth two in the bush. forget about "future goodwill".
Who know, even if you stick with this garage in future, it is quite possible that the personnel at the garage will have moved on and the new staff won't remember you.
|
jbif i honestly think that your attitude is the reason there is a problem between repairers and customers in the automotive world
i see no slack from you even though the OP has said that the garage has negotiated reasonable terms to counteract the original bill
i suspect this is why people who work in the automotive business and who posted before in the hj forum have now stopped posting interesting snippets and answers because basically why should they bother if they are always dammed
one can only take so much you know
i would be interested to hear your present employ
|
jbif i honestly think that your attitude is the reason there is a problem between repairers and customers in the automotive world
Exactly... some customers get 'cut more slack' than others.... doesnt take a degree which ones...
We in the motor trade are only human, and we react to the way we are treated, just as our customers do, if we do the best we can to help, we dont expect a knife in the back - if we do get one, then we often pull it out, and reuse it....
|
|
|
Bellboy, I disagreed with you up above but this comment is entirely fair. There are a lot of customers who take advantage of suppliers - more than the other way round, and the honest trader is tarred with the same brush as the cowboy.
I didn't, and still don't, think that Geoff, the OP, is that sort of customer, which is why I hope that some sort of compromise will be reached whereby he pays for a repair once, as opposed to twice or not at all.
I certainly hope we don't lose our experts on this forum because of a stroppy minority.
|
People who think you can check a sump with a straight edge have obviously never seen a sump, I've yet to see an engine sump that does'nt allow the crank through it at both ends.................................................
Times money, how long is a garage supposed to spend measuring for trueness whilst the sump is off and dripping oil all over the technician.
You can't really expect a lot from a board of Watchdog enthusiasts though.
Who said a little knowledge is a very dangerous thing?
|
People who think you can check a sump with a straight edge have obviously never seen a sump I've yet to see an engine sump that does'nt allow the crank through it at both ends.................................................
I think laying a suspected distorted item on a sheet of glass is the normal method to detect a problem - it shouldn't take more than a minute of two to do either
MVP
|
...People who think you can check a sump with a straight edge have obviously never seen a sump, I've yet to see an engine sump that does'nt allow the crank through it at both ends...
Dox,
The OP refers to an auto gearbox sump, not the engine sump.
Most auto gearbox sumps are simple metal trays - bit like what SWMBO does the roast dinner in.
As such, they should be easy enough to check with a straight edge/sheet of glass.
A little reading of the original question is obviously a dangerous thing.
I don't watch Watchdog, either, though for all I know everyone else on here might.
Edited by ifithelps on 20/04/2009 at 10:40
|
Dox The OP refers to an auto gearbox sump not the engine sump.
Nope, it says "around the area of the autobox" (or similar) which could mean engine sump.......................................
It would be nice to know the costs involved, gasket only + labour and the cost of the sump (that the garage were initially trying to save the customer, no praise needed)
|
..it says "around the area of the autobox" (or similar) which could mean engine sump....
Dox,
Do you really believe it could be the engine sump? Looks to me more like an attempt by you to rescue a 'forum foot in mouth moment'. :)
Anyway, back to motoring.
I have known auto gerarbox sumps bent by injudicious use of a trolley jack.
The gaskets need to be in one piece when fitted and they are prone to leak around the set screw/bolt holes - in my limited experience.
|
Do you really believe it could be the engine sump? Looks to me more like an attempt by you to rescue a 'forum foot in mouth moment'. :)
Touche;o), hopefully OP will clear this one up later and give us the price of the sump.
I'd say for every 1 gearbox sump replaced / sealed you'd replace / seal 10 engine sumps.
I have known auto gerarbox sumps bent by injudicious use of a trolley jack.
Another watchdog comment......................................
The gaskets need to be in one piece when fitted and they are prone to leak around the set screw/bolt holes - in my limited experience.
>>
A lot sump "gaskets" these days come out of a tube and in my limited experience the leak where they wrap around the crank because you can't measure them there with a piece of flat glass.
I've had the Caithness glass tour though, very interesting ;o)
|
|
SQ
I think laying a suspected distorted item on a sheet of glass is the normal method to detect a problem - it shouldn't take more than a minute of two to do either MVP
How do you measure the two semi circle cutouts for the crank with a sheet of glass?
As said, you've never seen a sump have you?
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 20/04/2009 at 11:18
|
|
I am not familiar with this car but it is possible that the sump cannot easily be removed completely,due to a xmember for example,so they would have dropped it to fit the gasket.Checking it for trueness would therefore require more labour and a higher cost.A mechanic would not be expecting a sump to be distorted unless there was very obvious damage.
|
|
The distortion aspect seems to me to be a bit of rationalisation for a cocked-up gasket replacement. I wonder how an oil pan could "distort" when fixed to a crankcase/gearbox by numerous bolts. It would have to be very well hammered to twist or curl up, independently of the crankcase. Unless it was used as a trampoline whilst off the car:)
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
