Altea Ego
Are you suggesting that I should have exceeded the speed limit? If you are, that sounds dangerous to me given the circumstances.
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I'm sure I have read on here, examples of people who have been punished with red light ticket fines for pulling over the stop line to allow free passage to an emergency vehicle with blue lights on.
Bearing in mind the attitude of the Police towards the motoring public these days, then I would not infringe the law by one iota to allow them the passage they are seeking. They will pass me only so long as I do not have to break a single law in order for them to do so.
The same goes for fire engines and even more so for ambulances who will now put their blues and two tones on the minute they set wheel on a public highway. They with their paramedic colleagues seem utterly incapable of making progress with out those two items, even at 3 am in the morning on deserted stretches of road.
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Mr X,
I sincerely hope a member of your family never need an emergency service asap.. and then find they've been held up by someone with similar thoughts to your own.
Edited by Westpig on 21/11/2008 at 18:29
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Altea Ego Are you suggesting that I should have exceeded the speed limit? If you are that sounds dangerous to me given the circumstances.
Yes - exactly what i am saying if its safe to do so.
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Yes - exactly what i am saying if its safe to do so.
Quite right too.Spot on,AE.
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Spospe- was the road ahead clear, in which case, personally I would have sped up to find a gap to allow them to pass (have done this in the past on the Motorway when a Police car on a shout suddenly appeared as I was passing a junction- I indicated left and booted it to the next available gap. Similarly a few weeks back in Bristol had to go through a red light and cross 2 lanes of traffic to clear a route for an Ambulance.
In the instance you describe though I do believe the Police were irresponsible in coming that close to you, as would have been a surefire way of triggering a panic response in any driver, that could have resulted in an accident, and sounds like the kind of behaviour most traffic officers would pull other drivers over for.
(PS the above is not intended as Police bashing, is just a comment on the actions of 1 officer based on the information given).
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What on earth is the matter with people? Blues in your rv mirror and a howling siren mean the emergency services are in a hurry. Yours not to reason why (kebabs getting cold or bloodshed/inferno to be stopped). Under these circumstances I always get out of the way as quickly as possible. If that involves exceeding the speed limit for a short distance or technically violating a red light, bus lane or anything else short of human life, so be it. Cross that bridge when you come to it.
Was it really impossible for the OP to squeeze in to the side and let plod past? It very seldom is. To carry on in the way at the same speed seems to me outrageously self-important and smug. I would say that sitting two feet the OP's rear quarter whooping and flashing was a sign of impatience and irritation on plod's part.
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I think that if the road wasn't very busy and I'd seen the Police car some way behind, then I'd have pulled into the side and waited for it to go past.
Edited by Bill Payer on 21/11/2008 at 17:54
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As I have previously stated, there is NO side to pull into on this road, there is a wire rope safety barrier and if you get through that, a good drop into a tree filled valley.
I could have speeded up to the point where I was behind the car in front and then there would have been three of us nose to tail.
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Don't beat yourself up Spospe. They are the ' highly trained drivers " not you. It is up to them to make progress with out putting others at risk.
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previously stated there is NO side to pull into on this road
If that is so spospe, then sorry.
There are many more places like that in London these days owing to the pointless extension of pavements into the road in many places and the widening of centre bollards. Even so it doesn't always occur to people that the place to stop is between the bollards so plod (or whoever) can pass, not just beside them, as some do, forcing the emergency services to go round the wrong side of the bollard if they are really in a hurry.
I suppose people are so stubbornly law-abiding because enforcement of speed limits has become so harsh, mechanical and money-grubbing. But I still think it despicable to care more about your virgin driving licence than some emergency you know nothing about. It's an age thing, probably. When you are grown up you don't treat all laws and regulations with the same exaggerated respect. There's a pecking order, and speed limits, bus lanes and red lights are fairly far down it.
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Left hand indicator to acknowledge the presence of the emergency vehicle. Pull over as far to the left as you safely can. Maintain your speed or just relax the accelerator. Let the emergency vehicle do the work. In most cases it is inappropriate to stop or slam on the anchors.
The emergency vehicle driver has probably already made a plan way infront of you.
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Spospe what car you got ?
Just wondered if he felt a little intimidated that a reliant robin could go so fast.
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'But I still think it despicable to care more about your virgin driving licence than some emergency you know nothing about.'
We are in the midst of a recession. 3 points on your licence might just be all your employer needs to let you go in favour of retaining some one with a 'virgin " licence when making redundancies.
Doing your good deed could then lead you to being with out a roof over your head and a cold hungary family. The good deed warm glow will be long gone by then.
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and a cold hungary family. >>
what have the Eastern Europeans got do to with it?...:-)
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content removed
Edited by Mr X on 21/11/2008 at 18:40
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There was no way to correct the spelling error as far as I could see. Didn't realise that the spelling of a reply was more important than the content .
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Mr X,
It's called humour....:-)
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and a cold hungary family.
Serves you right for inviting the people from Budapest to your house in the first place!
But seriously, having witnessed, time and again, idiots who are either unaware of an emergency vehicle coming along OR have a 'don't give a toss' attitude towards them, I wonder how many folk shouldn't be behind a wheel in the first place?
Often, I will hear a siren whilst in traffic, and automatically go into 'look about' mode to see where the vehicle is.
Example - rush hour nose-to-tail traffic. Hear a siren... see lights in rearview mirror? Pull in to the L or R side, depending on the road.
Yet I've had people behind me then take advantage of ME getting out of the way, and overtaking! *gasp*
Or sitting at a light, hear siren, see emergency vehicle approaching on the cross road.
Light turns green, I wait, cos that fire engine is off somewhere. Dildo behind me honks the horn so i get a move on.
Moron - it's big, red, screaming at 120dB, and had flashing lights - HOW CAN YOU MISS IT?
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You appear to have missed the point I made. I am happy to make allowances for the approach of emergency vehicles but strictly with in the law. They do indeed have to deal with people who fail to notice them but now, due to the attitude of the law makers and the courts, where many motoring offences are ' absolute " with no acceptance of mitigation, more people will be thinking twice before doing anything that breaks those laws. This will lead to more hinderance of passage for emergency vehicles.
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Ok, Mr X.
But this seems to me, Johnny Foreigner, to be a real example of the blame society.
I, personally, would take my chances.
I'm sure that, if prosecuted for speeding or jumping a light, I'd have the relevant authorities on my side in front of the beak, saying "Yes m'lud, if Mr X HADN'T sped up, or Mr X hadn't crept over that red light, we would have been later at the fire/accident/robbery."
Now, I know there HAVE been prosecutions for similar offences. But wonder if they are reported with a slant?
I wonder how much of the attitude is stoked by the constant rantings about the "state of nanny-state Britain" in the Mail and Express?
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Are we allowed to publish links ?
If not apologies and please remove.
You may have a more liberal justice system in Cape Town but in the UK, the pound earned from fining people is now a god. No amount of pleading and back up is going to stop those in charge from having their wedge of cash.
www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/s/1059937_fin...y
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Liberal, or applying common sense, Mr X?
In this case:
A Manchester council spokesman said: "After examining the footage of the incident in detail we have decided to withdraw the fine against Mr Mahmood, and apologise for any inconvenience this has caused him." ***Yaya! Common sense at work!***
As mentioned, I'm sure 99 times out of 100 an understanding beak would say 'silly prosecution'...
IF it gets that far.
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The following happened to me only yesterday. Whilst stopped at a red light on a dual carriageway at the head of a queue of traffic in rush hour, I heard a siren and saw in my mirror the blue lights trying to get through the traffic behind. All the pedestrians waiting at the traffic lights stopped crossing the road, myself and the car next to me inched across the lights and the cars behind moved left and right, like the parting of the red sea, to make a passage for the ambulance through the traffic. All those different people, making space for the emergency services, and "bending" the rules slightly.
I suspect if it had been at the weekend there would have been mayhem with all the Sunday Drivers lost in their gormlessness and terrified to move.
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I suspect if it had been at the weekend there would have been mayhem with all the Sunday Drivers lost in their gormlessness and terrified to move.
As mentioned above, i can hear a siren a LONG way away, and I normally have the radio on, and the window slightly cracked open.
Red or blue strobes I can SEE in the rearview a long way back.
(Stating the obvious - that's what the lights and sirens are for...)
The other drivers must be either braindead, or deaf, or blind or a combination of all of them...
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Ah. I see.
We owe it to ourselves to obstruct the emergency services because of the recession.
How amazing that that hadn't occurred to me. Seems so obvious somehow, now that you have enlightened me. What an idiot I must be.
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Out of left field...
IF the guy can't pull off the road to allow an emergency vehicle by, what would he do if he realised his tyre was punctured?
Keep driving for miles until there is a safe place to pull over?
Hit an old codger? Sorry, can't stop... nowhere safe to pull over!
The mind boggles.
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" The good deed warm glow will be long gone by then."
My Father died one morning while an ambulance fought its way across the city in the rush hour.
You tend to see it differently after that.
Edited by oilrag on 21/11/2008 at 18:54
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As only a local could know; can the OP tell the rest of us how wide this road is?
An HGV is around 11ft wide overall; can two oncoming trucks pass?
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I think its an age thing as previously mentioned.
I could live with myself if I had to argue over getting fined/points etc for helping an emergency vehicle.
I could not live with myself if someone died/was killed/burnt to death/allowed a child abductor to get away/etc/etc /etc because i obeyed the law and made them wait.
Laws are for guidance not for blank headedly following.
Re the pecking order. Dont murder/steal etc is far higher up my list than dont speed so that the emergency services can get through !
1 day, you might just need them too !
Edited by yorkiebar on 21/11/2008 at 18:53
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The Highway code states that you should not break the law to assist emergency vehicles. I'll stick to that gentlemen ( and ladies ) . My conscience will be clear.
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Imagine your wife and kids get trapped in a house fire, but the fire engine couldn't get there before the roof collapsed, because the other drivers were obeying the highway code.
Class act, Mr X.
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The Highway code states that you should not break the law to assist emergency vehicles.
I'm sure you can see the reason for that.
(Just think about the consequences if it said the opposite.)
Everything in moderation.
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Can't say that I understand GroovyMucker's point. I agree with Mr X. If that's what the Highway Code says, and there may be a camera waiting to trap you, and people have been convicted, then that is that, surely - the state has told us what it expects?
What a feeble democracy it is, though! A suitable amendment to the Road Traffic Acts could be drafted in 10 minutes.
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Thank you ole cruiser. It is a situation bought about by the intransigence of those that are charged with operating and dealing with the motoring laws of this country. It is they with their laws are laws are laws attitude that are forming peoples opinions on what they should and should not do in these circumstances. The consequences resulting from doing the right thing are now far greater than they have ever been. Points on licenses can now mean loss of employment and all the things that go with that. Increased insurance premiums or inability to even find insurance.
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What a feeble democracy it is, though!
Perhaps oc. But didn't someone once say that the demos gets the democracy it deserves, or words to that effect?
It is a sign not of moral but intellectual feebleness to quote or even mention the highway code or cameras in this context.
'the state has told us what it expects' indeed! Are we not at liberty to tell it to go and stuff itself if we strongly disagree with what we think it expects? Of course we are. Why are people so proud of being sheep?
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Dear me. Just use a bit of common sense, make the effort to make progress to clear out of the way (such as edging into junctions at red lights to create space, happens all the time without incident) and you'll have done your bit to keep your conscience clear. An oaf deliberately sitting in the way of an emergency service vehicle to prove some kind of point could end up with a death on his/her conscience....
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I just hope you dont break any other laws (daily) if that is your uncaring attitude to society !
That imo is largely whats wrong with GB nowadays. Once upon a time a brit was proud and caring and responsible. Now you can be not bothered, uncaring, irresponsible and law abiding.
Hah, progress!
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I realy can not understand how people can think "there is an ambulance with lights on behind me, should I get out of the way or not?"
To me it is what you do automaticaly, sirens = get out of the way, there is no should I, just how do I.
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>To me it is what you do automaticaly, sirens = get out of the way, there is no should I, just how do I.
Exactly!
Most of the time I have bumped up on to the pavement or grass verge, or simply pulled in, leaving enough room.
Don't just stop, which may block their way.
I do wonder sometimes what I would do if I could not get out of the way! - Single lane country lanes spring to mind!
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Struggling to imagine that on an urban road there was no room to pull in - even the little road in my estate must be 20ft wide and a typical car is 6ft wide. On a more major road there would be much more room that that.
Even if it's tight. pull in and the emergency vehicle (EV) will pass - if traffic is busy the other way then the EV will force it to stop.
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>T I do wonder sometimes what I would do if I could not get out of the way! - Single lane country lanes spring to mind!
This is the crux of the matter; the driver of the emergency service vehicle can see the difficulties faced by the drivers immediately ahead. They'll invariably tone it down slightly to compensate, as panicking motorists will cause them to slow up.
Lights/sirens will be left on to make those drivers further ahead aware, but if it's an impossible situation I'd leave the blues on but switch the siren off. When the traffic begins to move I'll resume the noise.
Bear in mind there's often current radio traffic associated with the incident (giving an added impetus) to concentrate on so it may not be an exact science and a distraction, hence (i'd guess) giving rise to the situation that kicked off this thread.
Put yourself in their boots and make the effort to mentally move up a notch if you hear them on way.
The very rare press reports of drivers getting reported for offences linked with emergency calls are boshed early on when the true circumstances come to light; the majority never go anywhere as they're seen for what they are before reaching the letter boxes of the drivers who have done the right thing.
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I drive around the ring road here every day and see so many berks especially when emergency vehicles are present. Every time I see an emergency vehicle there is at least one and often several berks who notice far to late, don't signal their intentions, get in the way, some even sit at red traffic lights with an emergency vehicle behind them (which is forgivable) but still sit there like berks when the lights turn green!
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To answer two of the questions asked by BR's
1) the car was a Yaris (current shape).
2) an HGV (or bus for that matter) going up the road can safely pass a similar vehicle going down. However if a cyclist, or motorcyclist tried to go through the gap between them, there would not be enough room.
I repete, there is no pull off area of any kind on the downhill side, which was the direction that I was driving in.
I would have need to stop for the Police car to get past and cars coming up the road would have had to slow down to allow the Police car to get safely past me. If I had in any way suddenly lost speed, the Police car would have hit me. Slowing down gradually to a stop would have held the Police car up longer than me doing what I did, namely driving normally until I could pull in by the traffic lights.
I hear often on the news of people being killed by the Police in hot persuit of other vehicles, I see no reason to put myself and others at risk by joining in the chase.
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Don't you know you were supposed to vanish in to thin air ?
I can think of many roads in the North Yorkshire area where you could only stop on the actual road because there is nothing but a downward slope on the near side. Still, you be better off plunging over the edge than risk upsetting those who believe the emergency services could never be in the wrong.
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Ive been to Marple a few times (I have friends there, although I live down south) if this is the road I think it is, not only is it fairly narrow, but it is hilly, and twisty...
I was told that there has been a fair few lorry / bus accidents when the show comes, is this the right road Spospe?
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Surely you keep going until you can get out of the way...
The OPs main grudge seems to be how close they came up to him... something for the Emergency Services to take forward, perhaps, if the driver cannot get out of the way then, as said by someone else the ES should pull back a little to prevent painicking...
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From the OP's description; the road sounds to be around 24ft wide.
As a car needs around 7ft clearance; if he'd pulled hard to the left, the ES vehicle could have forced his way through - with a little co-operation from/intimidation of, oncoming cars...
Sounds impossible; but they are trained to do it.
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If the OP had simply clocked that the cop was coming up fast on a road that would allow three abreast if everyone took it easy at the point of the passing then why did he maintain his speed, particularly when the road on his side was very quiet.
It's an A road, so if 2 HGVs can pass at speed, then three cars abreast is no problem at 30mph and one of them is trained driver. The oncoming cars can see what's happpening and it only takes on of them to be half awake and slow down as well and the cops have got a clear run through a huge gap.
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I suggest people have a look at the road using google earth or multimap aerial photography and then make comments about the possiblity of letting the police car through......
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Swiss Tony
It is difficult to be sure that we are talking about the same road, it is certainly twisty in places, but where this incident happend it is more of a downhill curve in the direction I was travelling.
The road is not wide enough for a car to safely overtake another with oncoming traffic and this was the root cause of the Police driver's antics. I repete, it was impossible for me to pull to the side and let the Police get past, simply because there is no side to pull into.
What I do find disturbing are the several suggestions that I should have speeded up so as not to impede the Police car. I am not a brilliant driver and frankly doubt my ability, in traffic to safely take the risks that I saw the police driver take.
What I did was to maintain my speed for the 400 yards until we came to the wider bit by the traffic lights and then, as the Police car passed me, slowed down so as to let him past easily and then shuffled across the road so as to turn right at the lights when they changed to green.
I honestly cannot think of anything else I could, or should have done. If I had tried any of the various suggestions above and a collision resulted, do you think that the Police and my insurers would have said, "never mind, you were only trying your best, no prosecution and no loss of No Claims"?
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As the cops approached, you should have slowed right down, pulled over to the kerb/roadside and the cops would have gone past with ease, if absolutely neccessary as a result of an oncoming car doing the same, allowing the cop car to pull round you into empty road.
The only circs in which this would not be possible is a single track road which this isn't.
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Correct Nsar, as mlc pointed out earlier. Spospe did nothing until plod was breathing furiously down his neck and then feared that if he slowed or stopped, plod would run into him.
The correct reaction in good time would have saved Spospe a lot of heartache (and numerous well-deserved scoldings)...
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as mlc pointed out earlier
I am very sorry chaps. I should have said Fullchat.
Please don't ask how the confusion arose. I wouldn't know how to answer (turns up collar and slinks rapidly round corner).
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I see now that you are now all full of condemnation regarding PC John Dougal speeding and killing a teenager crossing a road at night.
Why was no one outraged at the PC who sat on my tail, flashing his lights and trying to make me go faster (in a 30 mph zone)?
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We are, really. I am rather outraged, anyway.
Be an Advanced Driver next time - slow down gently to reduce the risk of a tail-end collision should you have to brake heavily, at the same leaving a bigger gap for the nice policeman to get into when he overtakes, as he will more easily since you're not going so fast.
Easy :)
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Spospe sounds about as advanced a driver as the average sunday mimser.
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I always believed in this car the police are supposed to hold back until its save to pass you. I am not sure the road you mean but I know there are a lot roads without pavements around Stockport.
If you speeded up you would have probably have got gunned and 3 points on your licence :(.
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I was outraged at what PC Dougal did.
I am struggling to see the similarity with what happened to you and I have re-read the whole thread.
Can you advise of the similarities?
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trying to make me go faster (in a 30 mph zone)?
Spospe: the PC wanted to make progress. You were in his way. You had the choice of going faster until it was easy for him to pass, or pulling right into the side and slowing or stopping so that he could shoulder his way past you by intimidating the traffic coming the other way.
By your account, you did neither of these things, but carried on stubbornly at your idea of the speed limit, causing him to continue flashing and howling.
Sorry, but I am not outraged by his behaviour, and while not exactly outraged I am depressed by yours, because it isn't as unusual as it should be. Seems to me you were stubbornly incompetent, and a little bit self-important. There's a lot of it about.
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Why was no one outraged at the PC who sat on my tail flashing his lights and trying to make me go faster (in a 30 mph zone)?
Well, I'm not outraged because
(a) No physical harm was done.
(b) I wasn't there so I didn't see the alleged incident.
(c) I try not to get uptight over matters which don't concern me and which are well and truly in the past.
(d) In the interests of maintaing a normal blood pressure I try not to get outraged about anything.
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Even though I have a close family member in the police, I would think have to think twice about committing an illegal act to make way for a police car and definitely never cross a red light: when prosecuted you have absolutely no possibility of a witness to prove that you did so in an emergency situation.
Three points on your licence translates into a big hike in insurance premiums.
Ambulances and fire engines I am a little more relaxed about: they don't have cameras and speed monitoring equipment as standard, but still a no-no for red lights.
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It's not the few seconds saved or wasted at one particular stage of the police car's journey that matter, but the total time to get to its destination.
Even if the OP had instantly dematerialised into thin air the police car would merely have speeded up until it came up behind the next car. It's only the front car in the queue that makes any difference.
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With a bit of cooperation from the rest of the traffic, plod on blues and twos can slice through rush hour like a knife through butter. Some of them are really good at it in this town, which to many is traffic hell (if they haven't been to Dublin recently that is).
They can be slowed down by people like spospe though, or the ones who freeze between a bollard and the (usually extended these days) pavement, forcing the impatient rozzers to go round the wrong side of the bollard. I've seen that several times in my own street.
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the average driver isn't able to think quickly enough...(which is why they come to grief in their own emergency situations)...then you've got the serial British disease of never looking in your mirrors so an emergency vehicle 'suddenly appears', despite the fact it's been approaching for half a mile looking like a great big luminous blue Christmas Tree...then you've got drivers more worried about losing their place in the 'queue' so they keep creeping forward even if the keep left bollard is looming.
it's quite amusing if you take a member of public out for a 'ride-along', as they often get quite worked up about some drivers' stupidity...whereas if you do it day in day out you get used to it...and expect it.
i forgot about little old ladies who freeze...and you're totally stuck, boxed in by traffic, waiting for them to move a mere 3 feet or so...but they don't, they sit there looking in the mirror, hoping you'll suddenly disappear..but of course you can't
fire engine drivers must have the patience of a saint
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People who would break traffic regulations (speed limits; red lights etc.) to facilitate the passage of an emergency vehicle would act very much at their own risk. Obviously if something went wrong as a result of doing so there would be some mitigating circumstances but there is absolutely no legal exemption for members of the public to commit offences in these circumstances. Emergency vehicle exemptions apply to vehicles being used for the purpose of the emergency.
Cash cameras clock everything without discretion and even emergency vehicle drivers are put to the trouble of having to justify their actions.
Police Officers and others attending emergencies should also bear in mind that if they have an accident they WON'T GET THERE AT ALL. According to the Daily Telegraph today the average number of police vehicle accidents per day is nine. A proportion of them will have been on emergency calls and the rest won't be available to respond to anything.
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People who would break traffic regulations (speed limits; red lights etc.) to facilitate the passage of an emergency vehicle would act very much at their own risk.
Well, obviously. But there is an element of risk in any action, certainly one as obviously risky as driving a motor vehicle. What I don't understand is the view that it is the duty of the emergency services to take risks, but it is our 'right' to avoid them as far as possible, and never mind everyone else.
It's as if some people had a little lawyer on one shoulder and a little accountant on the other, both whispering busily into the nearest ear at every moment trying to make them behave like utter carphounds.
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"fire engine drivers must have the patience of a saint" .......I'm certainly no saint but, yes, had to exercise patience in the face of trying circumstances at times over the course of many years. If some of the contributors had done it for a while they would, understandably enough, see things a bit differently.......BUT..... my patience is stretched far more these days sitting reading the despicable posts which precede this one. (Yes, I know, the answer is not to read them and keep the blood pressure down)... Can anyone imagine how it might feel to stand outside a property knowing their loved ones are within a whisker of losing their life in a fire if they knew that a certain person is sitting smugly within the comfort zone of his warm and comfortable car blocking the path of the people doing their best to get there. Ditto they're happy in the knowledge that they're gonna stick to the Highway Code while someone chokes on their blood with bits of Ford Focus sticking in their head. Let's hope he/she/they (delete as applicable) never has to find out the hard way. And as for ambulances....Yeah, I bet those paramedics get a real thrill turning on the blue lights for the twenty eighth time that night and keeping the sirens on just to annoy people....I think not!
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There's a fire station just up the road from me. It's a main London road inside the congestion zone. A couple of times a day sometimes they come out flashing and sirening and go slightly downhill past my house to a place where there's a tube station, bus stops, a motorway bridge and a railway bridge, shops, post office, bank, fast food, pubs, zebra crossings and usually queues of traffic both ways.
Does my heart good to see two huge fire engines hurtling angrily into that lot, apparently far too fast to stop what with a couple of tons of foam sloshing around in their tanks... they don't often have to stop though. All the mimsers climb the nearest lamp post. It's lovely.
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"The constant wail of police sirens can make cities seem more dangerous than they are, Sir Paul Stephenson said today.
The Scotland Yard boss admitted he is concerned to ensure police vehicle sirens are only used when absolutely necessary.
But he said paramedics and firefighters must also bear responsibility for their contribution to the 'cacophony'."
I understand where he is coming from
tinyurl.com/ks5osb
I lay in bed where I live and at 3 am in the morning, the wail of sirens is endless some nights.
You'll have to take my word for it but I can assure you, the roads in my area are dead at that time in the morning. No ' A" Roads, M-Ways or major commuting routes.
Surely a professional driver can make progress with out excessive use of the siren , especially when the roads are quite ?
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I lay in bed where I live and at 3 am in the morning the wail of sirens is endless some nights.
Mr Ecks....I'm in a similar situation. This area is largely free of traffic at night but I know when I go to bed in half an hour or so the sirens will start. Oh, and then the helicopter will be up ( or 'not so up', judging by the racket ) You hear so many sirens here, both day and night, that you can tell which service is out.
I do know, however, that the sound of the service in the distance may be important in stopping someone jumping out of a window in a fire or give some poor accident or stabbing victim a boost, knowing that help is near.
Ted
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What the new chief is saying is that those of us hearing the endless wail of sirens are in danger of thinking that it's really bad out there, that crime is worse than it is, that there are endless accidents and that things are bad. My Police chief banned racing to non urgent jobs with lights and sirens blaring shortly after some one answering a non urgent call, plowed in to a bus stop and killed a pensioner a few years back. He pointed out the whole purpose of the advanced driving course was to teach officers how to make progress in traffic.
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It's true, the constant wail of police and other emergency sirens makes big towns seem threatening to spud bashers. The point is, swedes aren't all that nutritious, and birdsong and such lull people into a false sense of security. Low blood sugar plays a part, along with inexperience of course. Some carrot eaters are so sensitive they just fade away and die when exposed to full-on urban nastiness. You can't blame the weak sisters of course, but a solid, gluttonous diet of meat, kippers, wallop and senseless noise and violence soon sorts the survivors out.
After a while you hardly notice the clamour made by the emergency services, except when a helicopter hangs around outside your window for half an hour at four in the morning. That can wake you up. Bad as those damn poultry when you spend a night in the country.
Snigger.
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Bad as those damn poultry when you spend a night in the country.
do you know Lud..being born and bred in the country...and visiting it often enough to be used to it, i honestly thought i wasn't a miserable po faced townie...until I stayed at my mate's place on a farm and his brother's cockerel decided to visit every morning..at 0430 hours.
Day 3 and I lost the plot. The frequency of the damned thing was like the battery going in a smoke alarm i.e. just as you're about to nod off again. There was a rather ungainly middle aged man running through a farm yard in his boxer's throwing rocks at a poor little rooster. I swear if i'd caught it i'd have been liable for an offence under the Protection of Animals Act. My hosts thought it was hilarious, but did concede it was 'too much'.
by the time I visited next time, the matter had been 'dealt with'...much to the chagrin of my mate's brother who suspected foul play (sorry)...but had no proof.
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If he wanted to blast down a 30 mph road at 90 mph in the dark then of course he should be using a siren and lights. Different matter in central London where the traffic is bumper to bumper and you can't get over 20mph. Can not see the point of emergency vehicles ,which are painted in big bold colours and have blue flashing lights and flashing head lights, needing to have a siren going non stop as they make progress car by car. I'm sure the new Met Chief is better qualified than me and he seems to share the same opinion.
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Can not see the point of emergency vehicles which are painted in big bold colours and have blue flashing lights and flashing head lights needing to have a siren going non stop as they make progress car by car. >>
i'm sure the person who has dialled '999' for whatever reason wouldn't be inclined to agree with you
Sir Paul Stephenson's comments related to 'at night' when the siren's need is far less for other traffic....but inebriated pedestrians are the main problem then...plus the fact people from right hand drive countries habitually look the wrong way
my point was the damned if you do and damned if you don't angle i.e. if you don't use the noise you're keeping the local public happy and seemingly the Met Commissioner..but if you run someone over you're hung drawn and quarted for failing to abide by driver training policy
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Surely a professional driver can make progress with out excessive use of the siren especially when the roads are quite ?
may I refer you back to that recent thread where the ex-traffic officer is currently serving 3 years imprisonment......the thread where many people slated him for driving at speed, at night, with no audible warning equipment on. That's the one where all the news agencies inc the BBC and a retired police driving school boss said he should have used the car's warning equipment.
I know there were other elements to that story, i.e. excessive speed for the circumstance, but nevertheless it highlights nicely the dilemma the individual driver has..because if it all goes horribly wrong...you're on your own...and subject to the ranting of a baying mob out for your blood, because you didn't comply with 'policy'...despite that policy being at odds with the above quote about making too much noise at night.
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wail of sirens is endless some nights.
Frequent perhaps, but I don't believe "endless".
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Even if the OP had instantly dematerialised into thin air the police car would merely have speeded up until it came up behind the next car.
Although had everyone moved over there would have been no problem!
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Although had everyone moved over there would have been no problem!
Do you know this piece of road?
I think not - if you did, you would know there IS NOWHERE to move over to... it is a fairly narrow road, cutting through trees on both sides, it is a fair while since I myself have been down it, but I just reminded myself of it, using Google earth.... basically it is a road where overtaking is impossible unless traffic coming the other way stops and leaves a gap.
Reread the opening post ...
>>The traffic heading up Dan Bank towards Marple was normal for that time of evening and probably represented a vehicle every 30 to 40 yards. The traffic in front of me was also normal, about one vehicle every 100 yards or so.
The vehicle with the blue lights (Police) came up behind me on my offside quarter, headlights on, siren going and horn blowing. The separation between our vehicles was I should think, under two feet. It was impossible for the Police car to pass me due to the oncoming traffic.
with a car THAT close (2 feet) what was the OP meant to do?
to slow down would have meant getting hit by the police car - in fact the OP said just that.
IMO from what the OP states, I would say the red mist was well up.... in conditions such as described the 'advanced driver' should stop and consider what Westpig says ''the average driver isn't able to think quickly enough...(which is why they come to grief in their own emergency situations)''
And as for the current sirens - they are useless - in the past, I could tell almost exactly where the sound was coming from, the 2 tones used today have no direction to them, they could be coming from anywhere, I often hear them before seeing the blues, but cannot act, until I know where the emergency vehicle is coming from, because I could make matters worse by stopping, just to find where I do stop blocks the access for said vehicle.
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In a major UK city some years ago a fire engine trapped by a car at a red light gave him a gentle shunt. He got out of the way pretty quickly after that. :-)
I would go through the red light / speed up if safe, but I'd be absolutely furious if the police insisted on giving me the points/fine for any cameras set off in the process.
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My take on the matter, for what it's worth. I agree with fullchat.
Police (and i assume ambulance et al) drivers will look for a sign that the driver in front has achnowledged them being there before making a move to overtake unless it is safe to pass without the driver in front needing to know (very rare)
They look for brake lights, left hand indicator, a constant slowing of speed - something.
with none of these apparant where its not safe to sail on past there is no option other than to assume the driver does not know the emergency vehicle is there and to sit back with everything going until a sign is shown.
In the OPs sceneario I expect plod was waiting for him to slow down or stop, sitting on the offside so oncoming traffic can see the police vehicle and also slow and/or stop allowing for an overtake space.
The OP appears to have done nothing other than keep moving at a constant speed.
This is not a dig at the OP as I wasnt there,
but in the situation mentioned I would have indicated left, slowed with brake lights showing and stopped if needed (not alongside an oncoming vehicle tho) and the plod car would have hopefully gone by me no problems.
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This is not a dig at the OP as I wasnt there but in the situation mentioned I would have indicated left slowed with brake lights showing and stopped if needed (not alongside an oncoming vehicle tho) and the plod car would have hopefully gone by me no problems.
Hard to say as we werent there, but.. if I had a car that close to me (2 foot) I would be more concerned about not getting rammed from behind, so I would be concentrating on keeping straight and steady than indicating, what I would have done is 'flashed' my brake lights without slowing down hoping he would back off a bit, then allowing me to slow as and when safe to do.
speeding up? not an option these days... sorry but I know it would be a hard fight to keep those points off my licence.
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what I would have done is 'flashed' my brake lights without slowing down hoping he would back off a bit then allowing me to slow as and when safe to do.
Assuming the PC driving the plod car isnt a numpty, I expect this would be what s/he would do, now knowing that the car in front is hopefully thinking, "how do i let them past me".
Speeding up - I would not do that either.
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Assuming the PC driving the plod car isnt a numpty
If the OP was correct (or fairly accurate...) the PC WAS a numpty getting that close behind a car!
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Speeding up - I would not do that either.
I would. And I wouldn't expect anything bad to come of it.
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And what use would speeding up be?
the OP said going his way the gap between cars was 100 yards,going against him 30 to 40 yards.
by speeding up, all he would do would be to close the gap between him, and the car in front, making overtaking harder for the police.
what was needed was a gap to open up in the oncoming traffic, allowing the overtake to happen.
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Sorry Swiss. I meant I would not hesitate to speed up if it looked like the best thing to do. If it didn't I might have made myself as small as possible and stopped or slowed, to let plod do the work with his lights, sirens and moral authority.
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no need to say sorry Lud... after all, we werent there, and all we are really doing is 2nd guessing !
(maybe we are getting a bit carried away with this?)
the thing that does get to me though, is if the police were really close behind, a lot of vehicles were at risk of collision, and where would that have got anyone?
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I think if I had been spospe I would have taken the risk. If plod runs into you from behind he is being a numpty. And they quite often aren't numpties.
Of course if you were one of these midland scamsters you could brake violently and make him run into you. Think of it! The police insure themselves! No sceptical accident investigators, just blushing plod shuffling his feet and trying to explain why he has run up your jaxie! The sky's the limit!
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you indicate left, pull in as far left as possible and stop....this allows the following emergency service vehicle to pull to your off side and then someone coming the other way will slow down or stop, thus allowing an overtake
if you keep going, it never allows an overtake, because you can't rely on someone coming the other way reacting in time
try not to stop right on the crest of a hill or blind bend etc, because that means the overtaking vehicle has to take more of a risk than could be done on a straighter bit
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Agreed Westpig, that IS what one should do, where possible. (and exactly what I do do, when I can.
But... in this case, from what the OP says, (and as I have already stated we werent there..)
1/ road too narrow to pull to the left, with a drop into trees. (I know this to be true)
2/ OP leaves a gap of 100 yards to to car in front. (giving space for overtaking car to pull in?)
3/ oncoming traffic at gaps of 30 to 40 yards (beyond OP's control)
4/ Police car VERY close behind OP's car (that would scare me, I have been hit from behind twice, and get twitchy now if people get too close)
Ill be honest, I dont know what I would do if that happened to me, other than what the OP did, but try to let the police officer know Id seen them... not sure how given the police car was close behind....
indicate left? meaning what - nowhere to go...
flash brake lamps - cop thinks Im panic braking...
accelerate - close gap making any overtake harder....
Rock and a hard place IMHO
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I think that about sums up this particular situation. Lots of the other posts have been about different situations, where obviously different factors apply.
I see the sense of Westpig's advice to pull in and stop. But that is counter-intuitive, because in effect you are deliberately slowing the police car, and then relying on someone coming the other way to create the gap for him. There is not a lot of difference between that response and the little old lady who freezes and stops.
Both are saying, Help! I'm out of this, someone else do something.
I wish the good advice, in most circumstances, to pull over and stop EVEN IF THAT STOPS THE POLICE CAR, were more widely publicised, because it is at variance with the more usual advice to maintain speed until a pulling-in place appears.
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I`m reminded of the day four years ago when my father had his final, fatal heart attack aged a few days short of 89. It happened early morning on rising as these attacks often do, when it seems the blood is thicker.
Right in the middle of the rush hour then, at around 8.00am.
It started as another severe angina attack, but did not respond to medication and he managed to get the front door open following a phone call for an ambulance.
We calculated later, that it took him him nearly 3/4 hours sitting alone in that chair to die, and my sister arrived in the last few minutes of his life as did the ambulance that had to fight it`s way through the rush hour. He died seemingly as he was being lifted into the ambulance.
I remember having to drive straight through the city centre too, to try to get to him and at the same time taking calls from my sister on the Doblo`s built in phone.
The ambulance flashed past then, heading for the hospital and going in the other direction - I followed at a distance by going around a nearby roundabout.
There was some relief at seeing cars move aside, but naturally I was left behind and arrived just in time to see my father (through the gap between rear door and bodywork) that he had a gag in his mouth still - obviously from the attempts to save him in the ambulance.
Hence I knew he was dead before being informed.
He was a decent bloke, ex RAF having been in the Malta campaign and later with the push through from Normandy and into the area of The Battle The Bulge.
They were expecting German paratroopers there and he told me how once on guard duty at night how blokes were advancing down the road towards him. No response to the challenge so he `put one up the spout` they understood that sound all right and had fortunately been Belgian - not crack SS paratroopers.
On Malta there was having to eat grubs in flour due to starvation - and the time when a 500lbs bomb fell next to him and didn`t go off.
He was a fitter, in charge of a `pen` made out of sandbags and so on as a means of protecting fighters out on the runway.
He met the Spitfires that were being flown in off the carriers by standing on the runway while it was being straffed by enemy fighters and guided them into the pen for his team to refuel and re-arm them.
He would have been amazed then, to think he would almost reach his 89th birthday and due to that, (his age and luck), his death was sad, but not a tragedy.
He`s buried on a Yorkshire hillside - and just across from him is the grave of an 18yr old girl who died on her first trip out alone after passing here test. That`s tragedy... she died waiting for an ambulance too and it had a long way to go.
Iv`e touched on this before and I apologize for that. I`m pretty keen at getting out of the way of the emergency services and the first thing I do on hearing a distant siren and start planning how I can best get out of the way.
Why not? It`s nothing, just a little effort and time - contrasted with what could be lost for another family - and thinking of the 18yrs old girl, a grieving that could go on for fifty years, or more.
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well put oilrag....puts some pespective to it
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I've been a member of this forum for a long time but want this post to be anonymous so I've posted under a new acount. (hope the mods are ok with this)
Like oilrag and I'm sure many others, I too have a story about waiting for ambulances. For me it was an agonising 2 minutes while my wife and I desparately performed CPR on our 4 year old daugther. As it was the early hours of the morning the roads were empty and the paramedic arrived amazingly quickly. Those few minutes were the longest of my life and will haunt me forever. Only those who have been in similar situations will understand just how trumatic it is.
I'm just so pleased that the paramedic didn't encounter anyone on the roads with the mindset shown by some on this forum.
I have always done whatever I can to help the progress of emergency vehicles. If it means driving a bit over the limit, or over the stop line at traffic lights, or just pulling over then I will do so.
I find it hard to believe that some people can be so bloodyminded. Please take a moment to think about where that fire engine/ambulance/police car might be heading and those at the other end.
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 06/05/2009 at 19:56
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well put oilrag....puts some pespective to it
It has always been apparent that oilrag is a human being, what German Jews used to call a 'Mensch'. Four years is a short time to assuage an adult's sense of loss. He has had the generosity of spirit to bring to this argument a true and sincere display of feeling.
Compare that with the humanoid cyborg and his extra-powerful lawyer and accountant plug-ins, permanently devoted to saving the cyborg from being 'pushed around' or having to argue with camera carphounds and preserving its virginal driving licence. Yuck.
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1/ road too narrow to pull to the left with a drop into trees. (I know this to be true) 2/ OP leaves a gap of 100 yards to to car in front. (giving space for overtaking car to pull in?) 3/ oncoming traffic at gaps of 30 to 40 yards (beyond OP's control) 4/ Police car VERY close behind OP's car (that would scare me I have been hit from behind twice and get twitchy now if people get too close)
1, if there's two way traffic, even if busy, then the road is wide enough. It's just ensuring the right gaps become apparent... and you can't achieve that if a vehicle infront of you keeps moving
2, don't worry too much about that, leave that to the emergency vehicle, pull in to left and stop leaving as much room as possible. If the space is tight in front, the vehicle in front could move forward a bit
3, not OP's concern. Leave that to emergency vehicle. If OP stops that is one hazard mostly out of the way. If OP keeps keeps moving, then that is at least 2 hazards to worry about, OP and oncoming vehicle(s). It is much more preferrable for OP to indicate left (can show OP is reacting to you), maybe a brief hand wave...anything to show a positive reaction. Once OP has stopped you can then position the emergency vehicle to the offside and if requuired, be a bit 'forward' to allow oncoming traffic to realise you want to overtake the now stopped OP.
4, that means you haven't reacted before and the emergency vehicle very much wants you to know they need you to react and pull in...allow them to make the decisions.
'Hassling' a motorist in front is not part of any training and is contrary to good practice, however, you'd be amazed how many people bimble along on their merry way if you hover too far back...because they presume you're not that much in a hurry!...even with all the noise and lights?...so it's a fine line in reality.
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A lot of useful general discussion here about the whats and what nots to do but going back to the OP. You said you were writing to the police - did you and if so, what was reply?
I just can't help but think none of us was there so we can't really discuss all its merits to the detail that has been going on in this thread. It might not have been two feet off the bumper, just seemed like that, 30 mph would have been a real 27mph which would have seemed like positive crawling to a police car on an emergency and, at the end of the day. no accident happened so you could argue that police had full control at all times?
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