I checked my trade in value yesterday - but price will vary from source to source.
My '05 plate Mondeo TDCi (130) h/back, LX spec., 40K miles.
Comes up at around £6000 trade-in.
re. Mondeo TDCi injectors, yes they do seem to lose their coding, and need re-programmed. As to why this happens? In the same way that feminine logic ends many arguments,........ "I don't know why, it just does"
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I had one injector reprogrammed at about 65k miles, now on 125k with no further problems.
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I too have had fairly good things to say about the Ford customer service. My local dealer appears to be helping me all the way with issues that I have. It would be nice, however, if the doors didn't rust and the alloys didn't flake and the injectors start to pack up in the first place.
I very recently had an injector fault. The existing software did not have enough calibration data to know what to do and so the engine went into low pwer mode.
The dealer said that should the injector need replacing (no further software calibration data upgrades were available) then they recommend that all four are changed.
At the 20 - 30,000 psi that the injectors have to operate at, components will wear. I don't know exactly what they look like, but I imagine that the metal parts are worn away by the high pressure fuel. I am not surprised by this.
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My car has only 54k of rural driving. I told the dealer that if it needs one injector now then all four should be changed.
But they will only replace one and the Ford centre say its up to the dealer.
I expected a diesel to last 250000 miles and not start wearing out at low mileage.
I also have corrosion on the alloys and the paint is very thin and chips easily.
My old toyo did 190k in 12 years and was all original when sold and never gave any aggro
trade in value of 6000 is lot lower then I expected considering what I paid do these not hold their value?
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The life of diesel fuel injectors depends primarily on the source of supply (Bosch = best, others less so) and the applications engineering applied to the fuel systems installation. The best fuel system in the world will not give good results if either normal use or a relatively unskilled normal servicing operation gives rise to the introduction of contaminants. The well documented PSA plastic pot fuel filter is a good example of a poor design jeopardisng the life of a fuel system when normal servicing operations are attempted by unskilled personnel.
Given good maintenance, I would expect a set of diesel injectors to last more than 200k miles with the possibility of requiring a clean and reset at about half that mileage. The commercial injectors and unit injectors which I see, will do this easily, many by a very good margin.
659.
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re. OP's comment concerning depreciation (and expecting more than £6000)
I paid £9,500, two years ago. Vehicle 9 months old then, with 10K miles.
I don't think £3,500 over two years too bad. Of course, if I had bought new, it would be a different story.
Edited by drivewell on 08/02/2008 at 11:12
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£9500 for a 9 month old Mondeo TDCi would be a good price. I would have thought a car from a dealer would have cost more.
Needless to say I think I will be part-exing mine, and not for another Ford. This one has been far too much aggro and is built to last for 3 years and no longer. I think I will be going back to Toyota, the difference between Ford and Toyota quality is night and day. Even the damn Ford radio is on the blink and the heater control thingamajig has never worked properly, its got a mind of its own.
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Sounds like you got a lemon. Did you buy new?
Mine was sounds apart from an EGR failure, bushes that were noisy but swapped and a clutch failure that I know was related to doing a hillstart on a steep hill in the lakes.... when I walked down it later on I realised it was VERY steep.
It was a good car... did not like the ergonomics of the interior of the Avensis when replacing the Mondeo. My wife only saw the outside and did not like it. I'd be better off in the wallet every month by maybe £30 with the Avensis and yet I got a Mazda6. And my wife find the seats of the Mazda6 very comfortable - as do I. 400 mile round trip in a day and it's not an issue.
Going back to the original issue... with the complexity of CR diesels these things will happen. Personally now like turbo diesels a lot for driving style and economy. Fall back would have to be turbo petrol as I have also had a turbo 1.8 Audi A4, Passats and Golf.
As for depreciation of a Mondeo down to £6k. It's a common Mondeo rep mobile that is very common. If you're going for a new top of the range new Mondeo with the options (sat nav, auto etc.) then the new XF is not much more :-)
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trade in value of 6000 is lot lower then I expected considering what I paid do these not hold their value?
Regrettably not - few Fords do. This is due to Ford flogging vast numbers of new vehicles to rental companies and other large fleet operators on some kind of guaranteed buy-back arrangement, which (so I've been told) requires them to be returned with no more than a certain number of miles on them (don't know the exact figure but it seems to be around 14k) and in decent nick.
Taking mine (55-reg 2.0 TDCi 130 Zetec hatch, Euro IV spec) this means that the value goes as follows:
List price new (with options, i.e. metallic paint & parking sensors) £19,500 (Sep 05)
Price I paid to friendly neighbourhood Ford specialist: £10,500 (Jun 06, 13,850 miles)
Value now: max £7,000 (37,800 miles).
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Just read this thread, and following the many discussions we've had about common rail diesels i think the statement from Screwloose above should be typed in very large letters and posted above the forum....
''Never own a common-rail out of warranty - it's time to establish it's trade-in value''.
Was there ever a more concise 'says it all' statement about modern diesels.
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Re Toyota v Ford:
My Mondeo has been great (as has our Clio) a friends Yaris has been troublesome.
Warranty Direct figures show Ford as suffereing less problems than Toyota including fuel system issues.
Re Mondeo TDCis:
There are so many on the road inevitably a few problems appear on a site like this because people with problems gravitate to a site like this, Google TDCi problems and you get this site so it is not the tip of an iceberg. Because of the shear number of TDCis on the road I dont think they are any worse than average in reliability terms.
The X-Type uses the same engines, when was the last X-Type problem reported on here? Well X-Types are less numerous, my point made!
That being said there are more X-Type Ds on the road than Accord Ds and there have been a few Accord problems reported here lately.
Re CR diesels:
My Mondeo has saved me £4000 - £5000 in fuel costs over a petrol equivilent more than covering any potential costly repair. Being chain cam it has also saved me perhaps £1000 in cambelt change costs over many other diesels and petrols.
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My current TDCi has been out of warranty for the last three years and well over 100k miles. No problems at all. Nor was the one before it.....or the one before that. Guess I'm just lucky eh ?
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Was there ever a more concise 'says it all' statement about modern diesels.
I'm sorry, but with the greatest of respect to Screwloose who is an incredibly knowledgeable and helpful contributor to this forum, I disagree.
I would never question Screwloose's obvious technical expertise, and I would certainly not argue against his experience of the cost and complexity of rectifying common rail diesel failures. However, it doesn't give any indication as to what proportion of them fail. If you're in a job where you fix anything, it's inevitable that the majority of the examples you see of whatever it is you work with will be broken in some way. Yes, you can build up a very good understanding of what commonly goes wrong, and the cost/issues involved in putting it right. What it can't tell you is what proportion of them go wrong, and therefore how likely your shiny common rail diesel powereed car is to cause you a problem in the first place.
To put this into some kind of context, Bosch alone sold 8 million common rail diesel fuel systems in Europe last year. You could have a million of those go wrong (highly unlikely)and still have the odds stacked very heavily in your favour. I see Peugeot HDis on T and V registrations rattling around happily every day. Autotrader is littered with Mondeo TDCis and other common rail diesels with 120-150k on the clock and still running well. When I go to the Netherlands on business, the taxi I take is usually a Merc CDi with 200+k (km) on it, which still pulls like a train and run sweetly. Of course some fail drastically, appallingly and expensively at tiny mileages, but I have seen nothing to suggest that the vast majority don't clock up the miles with no more drama than a petrol equivalent.
Above all though, a good, modern common rail diesel is a superb thing to drive. Smooth, powerful, quiet, responsive, and capable of usually 50% better fuel economy than a petrol engine of similar power in the same car. Unless you need an engine to sound good (instead of just quiet) or like revs, they're very hard to argue with.
Cheers
DP
Edited by DP on 09/02/2008 at 09:19
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Cheddar
I had to laugh out loud when I saw your comments about Fords being more reliable than Toyotas. I don't know the warranty company involved, but if they think that Fords are more reliable than Toyotas them I would avoid them.
I have had far more problems with my Mondeo in three years than I had with a Toyota over twelve years. I buy my cars new, look after them very carefully, only use the best fuel and dealer serviving and I expect them to last a long time. The Mondeos are not built to last.
Within six months of delivery I had corrosion on my alloy wheels.
The body paint is very thin and very hard, so it chips easily.
I have had a new rear wheel bearing, the drivers seat was replaced due to a weld in the frame breaking. The airbag light came on and took three visits to the dealers to put out.
I had numerous cases of poor starting and bad running which after months of disucssion with the dealer and Ford Customer centre resulted in a new fuel pump and some other parts which I cant recall.
They are always reluctant to do warranty work.
The heater temperature control has never worked properly from day one, btut he dealer says it works normally?
Now the dealer had told me that they cant get hold of the new injector at the moment so I will have to wait until it comes into stock.
Doing a web search brings up a lot of problems with TDCi engines. I found very few problems listed for the petrol engine. That makes me think the petrol engine is more reliable than the diesel engine especially since there are more petrol about.
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That makes me think the petrol engine is more reliable than the diesel engine especially since there are more petrol about.
Not true, the diesel Mondeos far outsell the petrols. As you would expect for fleet fodder where CO2 output is king for taxation reasons.
Just using Autotrader (unscientific, but a good indicator), if you search for Mondeos under 7 years old nationally, there are around 3 diesels for every 2 petrols.
The Mondeo petrols are not trouble free either, 2.0 and V6 models both have an array of common faults, although tend to be cheaper to fix. Take a look at the CBCB and Mondeo owners clubs.
I'd agree that the MK3 Mondeo as a whole is quite cheaply built though. Not a patch on the MK1 IMO, and even that tended to rust in old age - at least it waited until it was old!
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I had to laugh out loud when I saw your comments about Fords being more reliable than Toyotas. >>
Warranty Direct figures are stastically relevant.
Doing a web search brings up a lot of problems with TDCi engines. >>
There are probably more TDCi engines on the road currently than any other single type so statistically problems will be reported.
very few problems listed for the petrol engine. That makes me think the petrol engine is more reliable than the diesel engine >>
The 1.8 and 2.0 4cyl are not entirely trouble free though the V6s are very good.
>>especially since there are more petrol about.
>>
No, many, many more diesels on the road.
I have had 125k miles of not entirely trouble free though excellent service from my Mondeo and it is still going strong, the engine is still sweeter than any other 4 cyl dieslel I have driven or travelled in.
And the one time I called on Ford Cust Care I found their response exemplary which only strengthened my loyalty.
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I have now had a look at the Warranty direct reliability sight and I would say it is definitely not statistically relevant. In fact I cannot figure out quite what their data means, but it definitely not a reliability survey. It think its misrepresented as reliability. Obviously it aslo excludes cars which are still under warranty, like mine.
I don't think that there are many many more diesels on the road than petrol Mondeos. There may be similar numbers, or slightly more diesels, but you are exaggerating the point.
Ford Customer centre is there to stonewall customers. Any enquiry I have made was met with go and talk to your dealer, we cannot intervene. Ford, never again, nothing but contempt for the customer.
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I don't think that there are many many more diesels on the road than petrol Mondeos. There may be similar numbers or slightly more diesels but you are exaggerating the point.
What basis do you make that claim? I've looked at the numbers for sale, surely a good indication, unless for some obscure reason petrol cars stay with their owners much longer than diesels do...
Just look at the sheer difference in numbers for sale. It's not even close, which is hardly surprising since both Mondeos and diesels are ubiquitous on fleets, so diesel Mondeos even more so.
Anyway, this is straying way off topic!
I think you have a point with Ford customer service, I've had dealings with them in the past and was not impressed.
Edited by TheOilBurner on 11/02/2008 at 13:40
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The warranty company to which Cheddar and others refer is Warranty Direct who, from what I can gather, are one of the biggest providers of after-market warranties around and are generally regarded as knowing their stuff.
Given that these warranties are, in effect, insurance policies you would expect the provider to keep a very close eye on what goes pop (and more importantly, how much it costs to sort out once that has happened) and what doesn't. What is instructive is that they will cheerfully cover you for fuel system faults on diesel Mondeos.
I think Linfoot has been a bit unlucky with his vehicle in terms of the running issues. Trouble is, as has been noted on here in the past, TDCis seem to be beyond the wit of too many Ford dealers, leading to the often-recounted approach of chucking parts at the problem in the hope that something fixes it. I also wonder if the reluctance of some dealers to do warranty work has resulted from this - after all, fuel system components ain't cheap.
If you were to believe some of what you hear about modern diesels and their reliability, you would expect the nation's highways to be littered with broken-down examples, which simply isn't the case. The way I see it:
1) CR diesels are complicated kit requiring careful maintenance and will (because of their complexity) cost an arm and a leg to sort out if they break;
2) there remains a significant minority of the motoring population who regard having to refuel a car as being a scandalous imposition, let alone any other sort of maintenance;
3) when 2) mets 1) there will be an amount (quite a large amount, I suspect) of failures that may be attributed to neglect;
4) there are lots more diesels about these days than was the case even 5 years ago;
5) All manufacturers produce a certain number of lemons;
6) A worryingly large number of dealers (of all makes) are simply not able for it.
Also, the easily-chipped paint and flaky alloys issues are not exactly unique to Ford.
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The warranty company to which Cheddar and others refer is Warranty Direct who from what I can gather are one of the biggest providers of after-market warranties around and are generally regarded as knowing their stuff.
Regarded by who? They are just an insurance company.
I just spent 30 minutes looking around their site. If you take raw reliability data then Toyota is at number 2 and Ford at 16.
The site cleverly hides exactly what it is that you are buying and what specifically is covered so I dont know what they regard as reliablity. It seems that it covers breakdowns, car not working at all. As far as I can tell it doesnt covver things like poor starting, noisy wheel bearings or climate control not behaving itself. I should think that there is an excess and a claims limit (which would probably means it would exclude major fuel system repairs). They also dont cover repair at franchised dealer, only up to £40 an hour at another garage. How far will that get you when the TDCI breaks down?
I can accept that my car might go wrong, but Ford customer service is very poor. I also dont accept that alloys should corrode in 6 months or paint should be such poor quality.
Yes, I may be unlucky, but isnt that what my new car warranty is there for?
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They also dont cover repair at franchised dealer only up to £40 an hour at another garage. How far will that get you when the TDCI breaks down?
In fairness, that's not true. When you get a quote from them (as I did recently), you get two options - franchised dealer or independent repairer, with the former carrying an additional premium.
I also found the details of the parts covered and the choice of warranty "levels" very clear when I got my quote. A 16 page PDF with everything detailed in plain English to be exact, and a very clear, bold, underlined marker for the what's not covered section.
I have no link with Warranty Direct, and don't have a policy with them. Just setting the record straight.
Cheers
DP
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Regarded by who? They are just an insurance company.
Indeed, but they are the insurance company who are paying for the mechanical repair work to be done on the cars they cover, so therefore you might expect that they will have a pretty fair idea of what sorts of things go wrong and how much it costs to fix. Seem to see their figures on a lot of consumer guides.
With regard to the rest of your comments about WD:
1) You can get full details of the cover (& the various options within it) if you ask for an online quote. Given that what I do for a living involves dealing with people whose primary approach to financial obligations is to try and wriggle out of them, you may be sure that the small print is the first thing I read.
2) They do cover main-dealer work - but as you might expect, given the higher labour rates involved it costs more in terms of premium.
3) There is indeed an excess; I don't recall the exact figure but it wasn't unreasonable.
4) Similarly, there is a claim limit which I think is £5k for a one-year policy.
(For the record, I have absolutely no links to these people - the above is gleaned from my own research into warranty options once the Ford warranty on mine runs out.)
I can accept that my car might go wrong but Ford customer service is very poor.
Agree that the quality of the dealers is at best inconsistent - some (including the one I go to) are very good; others are dreadful.
I also dont accept that alloys should corrode in 6 months or paint should be such poor quality.
The alloys on these aren't great, I agree there. But as regards the paintwork, it is certainly no worse than the Honda Civic I had previously, on which the paint would chip if you looked at it hard enough.
Yes I may be unlucky but isnt that what my new car warranty is there for?
It is. Have you tried going to another dealer?
Ultimately though, if you're fed up with the car, now is the time to chop it in and go back to one of the Japanese makes.
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3) There is indeed an excess; I don't recall the exact figure but it wasn't unreasonable.
£25, for the "ExtraCare" cover anyway. Struck me as being very low. I also liked the cover for all consequential damage of a premature timing belt failure. That's not one I've seen on a warranty before.
Struck me as being clear and fair, at least as far as the documentation goes. I can't comment on how they respond to claims though, and that as always is the proof of the pudding with any form of insurance.
Cheers
DP
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I just spent 30 minutes looking around their site. If you take raw reliability data then Toyota is at number 2 and Ford at 16.
?? On a base of 112 where less is better Ford are at 74 and Toyota 70.
However with regard to fuel systems - quite relevant - 4.49% of Fords suffered problems against 9.28% of Toyotas.
Also 5.99% of Fords suffered engine problems against 14.77% of Toyotas.
Also the Fords were off the road an average of 2.1 days against 3.28 for Toyota.
And the average repair cost was £277 against £383.
I know it doesnt help your problems though just because you have problems it does not mean every other car the same will be similarly afflicted.
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You get a different picture depending on which bit of their reliability data you look at. Looking at the current UK Top 10 then Toyota is number 9. Dont know where Ford is but it some way below that. Toyota seems to be almost level with CItroen, which is at number 10. Yes, if you really believe that you believe anything. I really dont think anyone with a good education would believe the warranty direct statistics. They obvously only cover vehicles that have been insured with them, they only cover breakdonws, there is no account taken of age of car, anything that is excluded in the policy is not included in the statistics (obviously) and any car under manufacturers warranty is not included, they partially included cost of repair in their statistics which is not reliability as far as I am concerned.
All of this is beside the point though, the statistics are of no use to me, my car is currently stuck at the dealer and he cant tell me when the new part will be available. I would crack open a bottle of champagne if I thought it was only going to be off the road for 2.1 days. No chance of a courtesy car either, they only do them for services and yuou have to book at least 2 weeks in advance.
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Yes if you really believe that you believe anything. I really dont think anyone with a good education would believe the warranty direct statistics.
Be careful, please, with assumptions about people?s education.
The thing is, these guys (as I have already said further up) are going to be pretty closely concerned with what goes wrong on which vehicles and the repair costs involved, because that is the info they are going to use in calculating their premiums. Furthermore, they are (as I understand it) under absolutely no obligation to make this data public and they are not affiliated to any manufacturer.
they only cover breakdowns?
If by ?breakdowns? you mean the sort of fault that leaves you stranded at the roadside, that?s simply not right ? what would be the point of having this kind of warranty if that was all it did?
To avoid another re-hash of all this, if you?re not minded to believe what we all have to say about WD, go get a quote from them, compare the various cover options, download the policy document and have a read.
I?m sorry to hear that your car is giving you grief ? I have one like it ? but that doesn?t mean they are all as bad. It does also sound like your dealer isn?t much cop.
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A source for Ford diesel injectors in case it helps:
www.uniteddiesel.co.uk/diesel_injectors/ford/
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The list price of a Ford is a joke, not to be taken seiously, even by a dealer.
Tie to buy is when the hire comapny(avis in my case) has done with it, usually at 9month 14K miles.
Then buy at 40% discount off 'list', at what Avis paid for it. As long as its serviced and accident free, you have a car that will last a long time, until you want a more modern/gimlick laden replacement.
I paid £10K for a 2l petrol Zetec estate at 9 months old 14K miles, which seemed reasonable. Equivalent Honda Accird/Avensis were vastly more expensive, but are unlikely to be worth much more in five years time, and they cost more to mend if they go wrong.
I reseached and found the CR diesels to be too risky to lay my money down on. Especailly after having a turbo diesel from VW which was not very long lasting - engine wise. All cars go wrong, just varies when and where and for who?
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well linfoot its sounds like you have had a worse than average experience & you are beliving everything you read & this forum has become a little bias towards the TDCI. The engine is actually remarkably strong & reliable. The injection system appears to have its varience in reliability which has been blamed on anything from poor manufacturing to poor dealerships. I belive the bedding in process " running in" has been a factor & fuel in certain area's another factor. The dealerships have allowed the situation to escalate even further . before yoy are ready to throw your TDCi away on the basis that your Toyota was mega reliable think carefully as the tables are turning on other manufactures at present. I actually deal with Garages all over the country & whilst some dealers suffer repeat problems others dealers just don't see the same problems which could indicate other factor's involved. All vehicles cost a fortune now to repair & this now has to become an acceptable part of motoring. Your mondeo could be repaired at an independant diesel specialist when out of warranty & you will probably get the best advice on how to look after it as well & what fuels to avoid whereas the dealerships don't tend to have that type of experience onboard. I have done extreme miles in TDCi's including several jaguar diesels & my wifes runs TDCi's & all have proved mega reliable with one diesel injector coding required in the last 7 years & covering over 300k miles between them & averaging 45+ MPG have saved a fortune over petrol. I have also enjoyed the shear torque of the TDCi which isn't shared by many other vehicles & this does make driving effortless. I wish you luck with what ever choice you make but take care
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My sympathy to the OP for his problem car. However, before this becomes unfairly derogatory of Ford diesels I thought I would share my experience with you. I won't bore you with the individual mileage and stats per vehicle but suffice it to say that my cars are working vehicles which have all covered in excess of 40k miles per annum. Some were new at the time of purchase and some were second hand. The main thing is that I have always had them maintained as required by the service schedule while they were in my care and have always ensured that they were fueled with quality diesel and driven with what I hope is a modicum of mechanical empathy. To follow is the reliability track record of the most recent 7 of my nearly 40 cars to date starting with the current one and working backwards in time.
Mondeo TDCI - No problems at all in 100k +
Mondeo TDCI - No problems at all
Mondeo TDCI - No problems at all
Renault Espace 2.2 diesel - Nightmare, got rid after 60k of misery
Galaxy 1.9 110bhp diesel - No problems at all
Mondeo 1.8TD - No problems at all
Mondeo 1.8TD - No problems at all
Now, does anyone else see a pattern here ?
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well I think that just reiterates the facts I have just stated in my reply. On the whole the TDCi takes a lot of beating
As I have mentoned before I think facts need gathering to see what pockets of the country have biggest failures as I am a strong beliver its fuel quality related. I too have alway's stuck to the recommended quality brand.
Inj Doc
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Mr Linfoot I do sympathise. I ran a 2006 Mondeo TDCI. It was carefully run in and I never used cheap fuels. I was the only driver so I know it had never been misfuelled or abused. I had a whole heap of problems with the engine injection system. The dealer tried to scam me by telling me that contaminated fuel had been used and I didn't qualify for warranty coverage. A letter from my solicitor had them retract that statement and they issued an apology for "any misunderstanding" haha. Their service manager actually stated to me that TDCIs could be very troublesome and the petrol models were normally less problematic.
My Mondeo has now been traded for a Subaru Legacy petrol model (2005 model). It is a very different animal, but feels much better made and nicer to drive.
I know that Mondeos are made for the big fleets and sell at up to 40% discount. I do wonder if its the case that too many corners have been cut.
My advice would be to involve a solicitor. It will cost you money in the short term, but give a payback in the longer term.
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I had a TDCI 1.8 Focus from new and once it started playing up I had 6 months of sheer nightmare as it failed to start time after time, and one Ford dealer bill alone was £1922
then a week later it failed to start again!!!
The anxiety and grief this car caused my family is hard to explain as without any warning it failed to restart and yes everything and I mean everything was changed by the Ford dealer.
The Ford Dealer hadnt got a clue what was causing it and once it was in the dealers for 5 weeks yet failed again soon afterwards, and I had a really difficult time with Ford Customer Relationship Centre whom I am convinced are trained to put off customers and stall them, I was given case reference after case reference as they closed my case on a regular basis. I only got anywhere when I saw a solicitor.
NO ONE at Ford had any concerns over me and my family not one iota.
Ulitimately it let me down over last Xmas and I had it taken by the RAC to the Ford Dealer where I abandoned it at the Ford dealers compound, by then I had had enough I traded it (clearly in circumstances it HAD sadly to be another Ford ) and I got a new 1.8 petrol focus Registered mid january.
This is OK but it reminders me of the last one I still have a chip on my shoulder over Ford, so I ahve no love of the thing .
In a year or so I will I move this petrol Focus on I intend NEVER to buy another Ford again.
Its a bizarre situation cos folk ask me about my new car and all I do is moan about how Ford treated me like something the dog left
Overall all the Ford staff couldnt give a sooty tail pipe about me, and it was with much regret I bougth this car I have now but at least its the last money Ford get off me.
In fact I hate it now as i write this.
I may advertise it on Monday and get a proper car made by a firm who cares about its cutomers.
Ford no way never ever again after this
I understand your angst but done try to defeat the swearfilter please
Edited by Pugugly on 01/03/2008 at 22:07
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mmmm
my 04 reg tdci (80K) makes too much smoke on full throttle
my 53 reg mercedes sprinter (170K) makes NO smoke
neither did my 04 reg brand new citroen relay but only cos it was usually in the dealers being fixed
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