When I was a regular visitor here a few years back folks knew I said one day I would like a middle age Mercedes diesel estate.... one of the forum members then was even supposed to be running his carefully for the day its depreciation curve met my savings balance ;-)
Well now my vehicle need, their values and my budget do all meet.... but things I hear lately about Mercedes of this age are worrying.
So what is the feeling these days? Is the rust issue a frequent one, do the electrics and expensive gizmos fail at great cost etc etc??
I must mention I look after three Mercedes for friends at the moment. A 1990 190E, a 1985 200E and a 2001 C200K. All of these are well above average condition for year and provide their owners with a great motoring experience. It's just that I have very little to do with the 1995-1999 models I'm thinking of.
Thanks,
David
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David,
I recently purchased a '96 C220 auto, rust is an issue, the early electrics on the C Class are becoming brittle and failing with a new loom required, my auto is giving 43ish mpg on week commute of 350 miles 60/40 motorway/A roads.
The wife finds it desparatley uncomfy on any journey over an hour, so do I, it does have the leather seats, don't know if that makes a difference.
The vacuums that run the headlight dip can fail along with the rear headrests function.
Oh and beware the mono-windscreen wiper linkage problem, I got 'round this problem with a handful of tap washers, let me know if you need any help with that.
However, its done 115k cruises effortlessly when it gets up to speed, hasn't burnt any oil yet after 5k and as I've bought it as a "tool" I'm going to give it another 6 months and see what happens.
It looks great, still has a presence on the road, still has that "ooh you've got Merc" effect even when i tell them it cost £1700.
The link that HJ provides in the C by C breakdown to the MBClub is invaluable, there not much they don't seem to know.
I should also mention glow plugs...........but you'll read about that.
There's loads of info out there on these cars, good luck.
Ellis
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The late 1990s were the period of worst corrosion on the then-new W210 E-Class, for sure. Its successor, the W211, seems to have suffered more on the reliability side (not least electrics) than from rotting bodywork. There are those who say -- and there is evidence to support it -- that the W210 was but the pinnacle of a more widespread corrosion problem among MB models, from C-Class to SL, and that the problem persists right up to today.
I guess you could take the view at this stage that any car 7--11 years old should have manifested its corrosion potential by now and it will either be there conspicuously, or have been fixed, or have never been there at all (even some W210s seem to have escaped). It is nevertheless something that should be checked very carefully; there's stacks of info out on the Web about the likely trouble spots on the car. If it has been "fixed", make sure it was done under warranty by an MB-approved bodyshop.
Interesting that Ellis reports a degraded loom in a 96 C-Class. This is a well known problem in 1991--95 cars and I thought the later ones were free of it. It has been attributed to eco-friendly insulation that was not up to the job. On the W124 it's a £450 part and up to two hours labour.
As the owner of three older corrosion-free MBs, I continue to take an interest in the corrosion issue.
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Thanks guys... great info. I did try the links but was overwhelmed with the quantity of issues raised!
Does the rust seem to be an outer surface issue which if correctly repaired by MB under warranty should then give the body a normal life? Frankly in my experience rust will always return in 2/3 years with a daily use car.
I like leather for the wipe clean aspect but unless very soft it can make seats uncomfortable.
I guess this wiring loom is the engine compartment section?? Does it all evaporate or can sections be replaced if you know what you are doing?
The glowplug removal issue is interesting and symptomatic of many extended maintenance items these days. Some of the 40/60,000ml life spark plugs take a bit of bravery to remove in case of snapping off in the head.
For me the choice may be a later 97/98 C-Class or an earlier E-Class. Frankly at the low prices they all fetch these days it may well be worth a couple of years with one to see how it goes. However I was really looking to find a worthy and long term replacement for our current 1993 car which I've owned for 6yrs. Don't really want to get something just how I want it to find it then disolves into junk too quickly!
David
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I am a Merc owner, one of the late W124 E class models and just pre the W210 that is so rust prone. I have always wanted a W124 and it is a fantastic car. I have been very pleased with it in the 23K miles I have now done with it. It would appear that the rust problem can be a lot more that just superficial, around the boot lock and so on, but lurking in places such as suspension mounting points and therefore truly structural in nature. The problem is due to a number of factors such as changes in the type of paint, construction methods and general cost cutting so fixing such a diverse range of problems is difficult and expensive. I can only ponder how much Merc's "cost cutting" has actually cost them in terms of warranty work, merc websites are awash with owners reporting major fixes, let alone damage to the brand. I previously had an A6 of similar vintage which had absolutely no rust at all thanks to the galvanising. Personally I would not touch a W210 and if/when the W124 wears out then at the moment I doubt another Merc would be top of my list, despite the fact that I am a very happy Merc owner more than pleased with my current car. If you really want one then a later C is probably a better bet than an earlier E from a corrosion perspective, but even so there are plenty of reports of rust problems with even these, by my standards, relatively young cars. However your view of getting something that will last another six years suggests something else. I would buy another Audi tomorrow, mine was great.
Cheers MGs
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The rust is generally outer surface edges but has also hit the front suspension of the W210. If correctly repaired under MB warranty then you have some security if it comes back, but don't underestimate the potential for a dealer to deny responsibility. I had a small problem at the base of the aerial on my W124 Coupé; the dealer swore blind that the aerial was an aftermarket fitting and therefore denied responsibility; I went off to an independent bodyshop to get the rear wing resprayed; it later emerged that the aerial was an OEM fitting.
The insulation on the engine wiring loom breaks down -- cracks appear and expose bare wire, which can short out (or whatever the correct technical expression is). It has been suggested in the E-Class Owner's Bible that it can be rapaired: "Wrap a small piece of pliable plastic (cut from a coolant bottle, for example) between the touching wires."
Some would say go for a very late W124 estate instead. Whatever you do, just get the known issues checked very carefully and arm yourself with negotiating info that could knock four figures off the price of a car that you find attractive but has a problem that simply has to be fixed. C- and E-Class are very different.
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Thanks again... interesting.
Because I haven't been about here much for a few years it is worth saying/reminding that I carry out all work on my own cars to dealer standards with parts sourced at trade prices. So labour charges, parts costs and the ability to do difficult repairs are not issues in maintaining whatever I get.
I do ask a lot of older cars (by the standards of many others here) and have been rewarded with great driving pleasure and good reliability from cars many would pass by without a glance. Status, image and age are not issues here. But I don't expect to be repairing them all the while!
The 16yr old 190E I look after is still a pleasure to its owner... as is the 21yr old 200E (earliest of the 124 series). So I didn't think it unrealistic to look at buying a Mercedes at 8-10yrs old and running it another 6.
I do have to admit I did sneak a look at a few '97-on A6/Passat Estates the other day... I do appreciate their quality and rust resistance but there is something about the understated solidity of the Mercedes I like. The last Audi we owned was one of the late 80's galvanised ones... like an early A4. I have to say the paint finish and interior materials/fit/finish were first class. But the ride was terrible on our Fen roads with its short travel firm suspension. Ride is a very serious issue with our roads... I will not run a car that joggles me about all the time.
Roger what do you mean about E & C class being very different?
David
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David
No more than that the C is definitely a small car and the E definitely a large car -- in terms of perceived interior space, ride comfort, etc. Only my personal opinion and based on courtesy cars from time to time. I'm of average size but could not get comfortable in a C.
For what it's worth as background, I run a 1996 W124 Coupé, which I've had for six years and don't expect to sell, ever (56k on the clock). I also bought a W126 300SE with 129k on it last year; it now has 138k and has fulfilled my expectations of the greater load capacity for which I bought it specifically. And this year, having sold my Golf VR6 to someone sure to prolong its active life, I couldn't resist a really rare W124 E300 twin turbo with 172k and feeling like 52k (featured in the September Mercedes Enthusiast magazine in a major article set up by its previous owner). I've chosen to deal with head gaskets on the latter two, although could probably have gone on for years tolerating the slight leaks, but all three are totally reliable and I wouldn't trade them in for a more modern MB or other vehicle (I've just passed up the chance of buying a nearly new Jag S-class at a very favourable price). So, I'm biased in favour of old MBs.
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P.S. Before I bought my first W124 Coupé, I too had an Audi (100E) from new in 1989 for ten years. When I sold it, there was just one pin-hole of rust at the back of the bonnet -- superb paint job and build quality. Like MGspannerman, I'd be more inclined to go Audi than new MB. However, I have seen reports of problems with newer Audis (especially the early TTs) and, for that matter, BMWs, so MB are not completely alone.
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David,
Good luck with the twin turbo, I read that article with interest, sounds a fantastic car!
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Blimey, David. 6 posts in a month; you're a regular again. Hope you are OK and had a good hol. Nothing to say to help the MB issue, sorry.
Hawkeye
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Stranger in a strange land
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I buy and sell a few Mercs and broadly agree with most of the above.
A late W124 would be a good bet - but they are getting harder to find in good condition.
Avoid W210.
A late W202 C-class estate might also be a reasonable buy.
Avoid any rusty cars at all costs - who wants a rusty 'prestige' car?!
Its astonishing that my '98 Nissan QX V6 auto has no rust on it and is totally factory orginal apart from service items, despite being used as a hack/runaround. In contrast I am routinely seeing Mercs of similar vintage with significant rust. The rust problem is said to be due to problems with the 'stretched metal technology' and water-based paint used. IME dealers do not want to help at all.
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Its astonishing that my '98 Nissan QX V6 auto has no rust on it and is totally factory orginal apart from service items, despite being used as a hack/runaround. In contrast I am routinely seeing Mercs of similar vintage with significant rust. The rust problem is said to be due to problems with the 'stretched metal technology' and water-based paint used. IME dealers do not want to help at all.
Totally agree the Nissan is a far better motor,mid nineties Mercs unless you get a well looked after c class then they are money pits they have the same standing as a Wartburg in Germany.The MD of Daimler Benz had to go on German TV to appologise for the poor quality of its products and gave his word the new models would be different 12 months on and warranty claims are going through the roof boy have they got a product problem.
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Aprilia
With no knowledge of the Nissan QX, I went to the Car-by-Car Breakdown (only brief comments there) and then on to the Web, where I found a page that may interest you:
tinyurl.com/qm5r7
You are obviously not the only satisfied QX owner.
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H. Yes all fine thanks. The Fife hols were brilliant... already booked same village next year. Somewhat by accident we found ourselves staying in the middle of the St Andrews area golf set and the streets/driveways were like a Mercedes showroom from 1990-2006. Every year and model was represented and all looked very tidy examples. It was seeing these vehicles that re-kindled my interest in getting one.
Roger. I haven't really examined C & E Class side by side and the size thing hadn't come to mind. I find plenty of space in the C200K I maintain so we could be OK with a C-Class.
Aprilia. Agree about a late 124 being high on the list. Why a late C-Class... just to avoid age related rust?
< >
Quite... and even more of a sobering thought is that one of the cars I've owned and enjoyed for the past 6yrs is a 1993 Xantia 1.9TD. Despite standing outside every day of those 6yrs it has no rust on the paint or underneath. Also in its total of 155,000mls it has only needed little above routine service items. Its engine, transmission and suspension are all pretty well as smooth and tight as they would have been when new.
Interestingly the last time I had the 2001 C200K I maintain here I was noting that the fit/finish/weight of the interior trim were no better than the Xantia... also that despite it having no rust issues yet the underbody was going to look far more ratty than the Xantia by the time it reached a similar age.
Good advice too not to buy one that already shows rust. I have a helpful bodyshop locally but they cost... a rough guess to sort edge/blister rusting on several panels and spray properly (perhaps whole car?) would be £1000+.
Having said all of that look at Roger Jones.... he knows all the issues and happily runs three MBs. I think this is a challenge I will have to face!
David
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>>>>Its astonishing that my '98 Nissan QX V6 auto has no rust on it and is totally factory orginal apart from service items
My last post had a whole chunk missing where I responded to the above comment.
Basically I was making the point that even more telling was that my 1993 Xantia TD has given excellent service over the past 6yrs with minimal attention above routine services. It also is free of paint or underbody rust and drives with modern tight feel. Comes to something when you wonder if a Mercedes run for a similar period of its life will be as good as a Citroen!
David
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I researched buying a sh Mercedes. The 124 is too big for me , and the later models very prone to serious rust and potentially expensive repairs - glowplugs on later diesels for example.
One thing I have learned on cars is that when buying secondhand , your chances of getting a bad one rise if the model is prone to serious faults (cos owners sell them when the cost of potential repairs gets too big).
I looked at various cars. Those I would have bought - on a condition basis - were too expensive to allow for ONE expensive repair bill.
Those that were cheap looked as if they needed two or more expensive repair bills so were not cheap enough:-(
At that point - and after having read long diatribes on various MB forums about MB lack of quality - I looked for other cars NOT MB.
madf
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With good clubs, good online forums and the Web in general (starting here with the Car-by-Car Breakdown), there's not much unknown about the risks of failure in any particular car. Therefore, you can approach any prospective purchase well armed with key information and knowing what has to be checked out carefully. Set up a checklist and tick things off systematically. You may well find a car that's a peach apart from, say, needing its head gasket doing; get an independent expert to confirm that to the vendor and you have a major negotiating lever. That's precisely what I did with the turbo mentioned above.
As an excellent example of the sort of information and advice that is available, just look at the German W126 page:
www.s-klasse-club.de/gb/index.html
Click on Buying Advice.
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Just thought someone might be interested to know the outcome of this. There was no rush so I've been looking since I posted in September. I really did want to like and buy a Mercedes but there were too many negatives I'm afraid.
I did like the W124s I looked at but to be honest ,as others have said, most are in their twilight years now. Many ideally needed front wings due to corrosion. Also they were a little larger than I needed and with their great wide seats and tailgate styling they put me in mind of the old family Granada Estate in the early 1970s. I could appreciate the tank like feeling of quality though.
The W210 Estates were definately too large and something about their image didn't fit with me. And the rust... these cars are now being sold with "usual rust issues" clearly stated in the ads, so much has it become the norm.
Most of my searching has been for a C-Class Estate around 1998/99 with the 250 diesel engine. Oh dear the rust again. So many were starting to look scabby in all the usual places we knew from British Leyland cars of the 70s. I did see a few that were tidy but when you *really* looked there were tell tale signs that a couple of years on the problem would show. Also I came across several as trade sales "needing engine repairs". These were the 250 diesel engine where the glowplugs had broken off (as I was advised above) and knowing the cost of a head-off repair were being sold as-is. The ride of the standard C-Class is a bit over-firm for me and the Equipe models with the slightly lowered/stiffened suspension much too hard for our poor local roads. Another odd thing was that so many were in the most dreadful interior colours. Bright colours obviously designed by Mothercare or at the opposite end of the scale an overuse use of baby poo brown.... and of course that lovely looking cream that is not far off white.... not a family/dog use choice!.
So I chickened out on the MB idea and replaced my faithful 1993 Xantia SX TD hatch of 6yrs with a mint 1999 Xantia TD Estate. It is slightly larger than the C-Class, rides better and I know it won't rust.
I still want to have owned at least one MB though so if there is any fuel left and folks are still visiting here I may ask again in 2013.
Cheers, DW
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"So I chickened out on the MB idea and replaced my faithful 1993 Xantia SX TD hatch of 6yrs with a mint 1999 Xantia TD Estate. It is slightly larger than the C-Class, rides better and I know it won't rust."
It's that Citroen thing, once you're hooked there's no way out..... I'm also looking to replace my current 97TD with another Xantia - C5's are just too complex. The current one has turned in 50k relatively trouble free miles in the last 26 months - all for a paltry £1250 :-)). I NEED more power though, so it's either got to be a 2.1 or HDi 110 for me. Trouble is, hens teeth spring to mind -perhaps the 07 plates will flush a few out. Trust all else is well in the DW household.
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RichardW
Is it illogical? It must be Citroen....
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Hello Richard... good to hear from you. Yes well it could be a Citroen thing but I really did try and give the MB idea a good chance. Ther's no doubt that the tidier nice specd MBs I tried made you feel good about driving them.
I too avoided the C5s due to the unknown effect of advancing age on their complex systems.
Actually the Xantia I bought was my hen's tooth. I wanted a SX in the dark metallic green and one of the very last 1.9TD Estates made. Got the colour I wanted and reg 31st Dec 1999 so getting near the end of that engine. Only 74K and full Citroen history too with a recent timing belt.
Even has that Trafficmaster lady who keeps shouting at me that the subscription has expired. About fits my frugal Fen image!
I don't need the power so actively avoided HDIs. Actually when I was monitoring Autotrader and EBay for all those months I thought once you reached 1998/1999 onwards it was easier to find the HDI and the old TD took some finding.
You may be interested to hear we have upgraded the good lady's car with an unmarked Xsara 1.9TD Exclusive. Treated that to a full set of Goodyear Hydragrips the other day... remember we used to enthuse about the Ventura tyre. Strangely that otherwise high spec model has no ABS so I thought I would compensate with the best wet road tyre.
Anyway we now really fly the flag for the underrated 1990s Citroens.
Otherwise we are in a very busy few years with the opposing stress of growing kids and failing parents. Hence that fact I pretty well stopped all the car/forum struff I was doing.
David
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M.M
I think your comments are a very accurate reflection of the current state of the used MB market. I try to buy and sell a number 'lower end' MB's each year (say a dozen). Good W124's are now few and far between, especially the wagons. And the later models do suffer with the rust and siezed glowpugs, plus a rather disproportionate number of electrical maladies and auto faults. I am now at the stage where I am looking at other cars - the MB's made within the last 10 years are a bit too risky, especially the CDI's (I had a nasty moment with a glowplug last year!).
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My bil bought a 1995 3 litre diesel W124 estate when he retired about 9 years ago.. for the not inconsiderabel sum of £17,500. He still has it : only done around 95k miles, left outside, never washe dor polished.. green mold on the rubber but mechanically A1 and clean inside. He thinks it is great and intends to keep it till he snuffs it or getss too old to drive. In case of breakdown he has just bought a C Class 180 estate around 1996 -8 for c £4,000 for his wife...
Seems to be catching...
Personally I would not have one: lumbering giant imo.. but each to his own...
madf
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Aprilia. Ha you might think my MB findings hit the mark but if I remember from the past you would not have headed to the safe haven of an older Citroen :-o
madf. My uncle bought a W124 when he retired in 1990... a 1985 model. Funnily enough I am due to service it on Monday and I think the mileage is currently still under 60K... it is as new in all respects apart from the usual drivers seat bolster wear.
DW
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Aprilia. Ha you might think my MB findings hit the mark but if I remember from the past you would not have headed to the safe haven of an older Citroen :-o
No, I would not recommend a Citroen. I spent a good portion of the 1980's trying to fix BX's (I still have nightmares about all those thin green wires they use in the electrical systems) - not to mention the true horror of the XM. I would recommend something Japanese - Avensis, Primera, Galant etc. - it never gets more exciting than brake parts and bushes/balljoints, maybe the odd starter or alternator if you're unlucky.
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M.M. -- thanks for reporting back. It's always good to know how these things turn out.
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My old XM 1997 2.5d run now by my brother in law is upto 500000km the only problem a head gasget ,drop links and a ABS sensor,A Bx bought new had a rocker cover oil seal in 100000miles done in two years, there is not enough room to give the problems we incurred with DB and Renault the Avensis has to be the best on the reliability stakes.
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>>>>>I spent a good portion of the 1980's trying to fix BX's (I still have nightmares about all those thin green wires they use in the electrical systems)
Ahh that's a bit like a lifetime fear of dogs after a nasty childhood incident with a farmyard mutt on a very long chain.... therapy can get you over it!
I have been a major BX supporter in the past... during the tail end of the period when they were still a choice for the average owner. Came to realise a few years ago that the ones left were more suitable to enthusiast use than daily never lift the bonnet motoring.
To be honest my Xantia experiences over the past 12yrs have been similar to your Japanese comments... but sometimes with the added joy of a clutch, radiator, heater blower and a couple more known issues. All easy stuff when you know what the causes are... just as with yourself and your MBs.
DW
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