****** This thread is now closed. Please see Volume 65, which is here:- ******
www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/index.htm?t=29082
In this thread you may ask any question for which you need help, advice, suggestions or whatever.
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Two questions really. Central heating side works perfectly but DHW is playing up.Sometimes tank gets hot, other times I have to switch the pump on and off until I hear a 'wooshing' noise and then the sound of water running throught the pipes. DHW then operates OK for couple of days. On my last trip into the loft I noticed the header tank was filled with hot water, so I obviously have a feedover. I've checked the 3port valve and actuator and they work OK and I've just used system cleaner and flushed out, but problem with DHW persists. Second query may be related. If I concentrate, I can hear the pump humming (don't recognise the tune), but SWMBO says she hears it all the time and its driving her, and she me, crazy. Hope someone can give me some new ideas to identify problem(s).
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Are you sure that the valve/switch is working ok ?
Is it actually the pump you are switching on and off, or the electicity supply to the whole thing ?
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Hi, Mark. Yes, I've had the actuator off the valve body and checked that it's actually moving. Also seen the valve spindle turning when actuator switches in. I've been switching the pump on and off by using the tank stat. Hoping this helps clarify.
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John,
Sounds (can you confirm) that you have a Y plan fully pumped system (or similar) in which case on demand (tank stat or room stat) the 3port valve will be moved to the correct position, pump will be turned on by the microswitch in the 3port valve actuator and the boiler will then fire.
If the pump is running continuously (as swmbo states) then something is wrong...maybe stuck microswitch, in this case you may also have the boiler enabled all the time. The boiler may not be firing continuously though...it is also governed by the internal boiler stat.
If this is the case then it might explain the warm tank if the HW has been overheating and boiling over via the vent pipe.
Can you confirm existence of feed and expansion tank for boiler primary circuit and also cold tank for cold water and feed to HW?
Also, do both of the above tanks have vent pipes looping above
(F+E might not depending on boiler).
StarGazer
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Hi Stargazer. To take your points in order, Yes it's a fully pumped system(Unishare). Boiler doesn't fire continously, but I can't confirm if it's boiler stat or room/tank stat that's controlling it. I'll have to check that one. There is a F+E for boiler primary and a cold water feed to DHW and both have vent pipes. I'll need to check if DHW feed tank is also getting hot overflow. That'll take some time to check as it layered in insulation. You've given me food for thought, especially stuck microswitch. I can get hold of another actuator and I'll fit that and see what happens. Many thanks for your input - I'll report back with results.
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My grandmother has had three (yes three) 3-way valves replaced in her central heating system as the keep getting stuck and moving into the wrong position. The microswitches seem to be one of the main culprits, even though it moves OK. It isn't a Honeywell looking like this by any chance is it www.grantandstone.co.uk/heating-controls/V4043.htm ? We have two 2-way valves at home of same design and haven't had a problem in 20 years.
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Interesting comment about failure rate of 3 way valves. I chose 12 years ago to install my system with no valves, 2 pumps, roomstat, cylinderstat and 2 relays because of the poor reputation of 3 way valves. Pumps are cheap and tend not to go wrong. Costs a little more in copper tho. In that time the hotwater cicuit pump has failed once.
I am just about to resite the hot water tank (from the loft to bedroom) and think I will retain the same set up. Much easier to understand and maintain. I wonder however whether to just let the hotwater circuit run under gravity, but . (It would have the benefit of noisless circulation). It has completly separate go and return from the boiler. Any comments
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pmh (was peter)
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My first thought to this would have been the cylinder stat. This is the thermostat that sits on the side of the cylinder and actually provides a feedback to you controller, which in turn, controls the valve.
The symptoms could be either the thermostat or the valve.
The crude way of checking the stat is to have the system on, turn it up until you hear the hot water kick in then turn it down until you hear it go quiet again. There are other ways that an electician would check it but that's a little complicated to explain here and depends on wires becoming live or not etc.
If you have eliminated the valve then this would be the next area to look at.
H
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I wonder however whether to just let the hotwater circuit run under gravity,
>>Gravity systems used 28 mm pipe.
The recovery time for the hot water will not be so good.
The controller would probably need tweeking.
I would not entertain it.
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John The sound of water running through the pipes is always an indication of air in the system. A full pipe makes no noise.
The make up tank being hot is something to be treated with urgency if it is blowing over the expansion pipe as your radiators will corrode very quickly due to the ingress of oxygen and this could be why you are hearing the symptoms of air in the system.
However another reason can be that the coil in the cylinder has a leak and water is passing between primary and secondary systems. This would result in the two tanks in your loft trying to balance to the same level by backing up one of the cold feeds to whichever tanks was sited the lowest.
The humming of your circ pump is probably unrelated to your fault as many do this and can be an indication of wear, or poorly supported or perhaps turned up to an higher setting than necessary.
As Hugo suggests your cyl stat would be the first port of call to ensure it is switching. Systems can be wired many ways but often they give DHW priority. Which means that when the cyl stat calls for heat the 3 port valve switches from heating to divert circulation through the cylinder coil.
You mentioned that the make up tank was full?..of hot water. It shouldn?t be full as the level is normally set way down to allow for expansion. Perhaps another indication of the cylinder coil being faulty?.
If you can be sure none of the above is applicable and as you seem to have a fair knowledge of how your system works I would suggest you do a little detective work. Start from cold and switch on your boiler with the cylstat set that it is calling for heat to the DHW. By feeling the pipework it will tell you what is happening. The pipes coming out of the 3 port will tell you if the correct one is getting hot. Switch off the cylstat and put the roomstat to operate the heating and you should now feel the flow of hot water pass into the heating pipework and so on. That is just one way and you will find other ways of detecting what is happening simply by feeling the differing temperatures of the pipework which will point you in the right direction.
PMH.. No don?t go down the route of gravity circulation. Too slow and no practical way of controlling the temperature apart from the boiler stat which would then dictate the same temperature to your heating system. I know there are mechanically operated valves to put on your primary F&R but I would not recommend using them.
Regarding two circ pumps on a domestic system this is not the way. This idea is often given by DIY shop assistants when a customer asks advice on a heating problem. The problems arising from 2 pumps is control. Unless you use 2 port valves on each pump as one switches off the other will continue to run both heating and DHW. I have used multiple pumps off manifolds on zoned circuits with as many as eight individual circ pumps on large buildings but always have to use a 2port on each one as circulation continues from the other pumps. Stick with one circ pump doing both heating and DHW.
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Alvin
thanks for your comments.
I have used the 2 pump solution (with one way valves in each circuit) with no problems for 12 years. No cross feed of heating/HW. Independent control of each pump via room stat and Cylinder stat with 2 relays providing the independent on command to the boiler. When reinstalled I will probably use 2 programmers so complete independent control exists. i have ensured that a bypass radiator exists and have an over pressure blow off valve to make safe in case somebody takes out the bypass radiator
I accept your answer based on your commercial experience, but have subsequently met a plumber who had independently installed the identical system to mine. Can you briefly explain why there would be crossfeed of heated water?
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pmh (was peter)
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i have ensured that a bypass radiator exists and have an over pressure blow off valve to make safe in case somebody takes out the bypass radiator
My installation has a bypass pipe. The flow to it is restricted by a slightly open stopcock with the handle discarded.
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Peter, Difficult to be brief in explaining circuits. But if we start from when domestic heating came into vogue around 1960 with the advent of small circ pumps, the way it was done was to fit an indirect cylinder and connect the existing primary flow and return to a new indirect cylinder. Fit a small make up tank in the roof space and take a expansion/vent off the flow over this tank.
The other two connections off the boiler was the heating circuit with a circ pump wired to a roomstat and job done.
The first problem with this scheme was the primary F&R to the cylinder were operating by gravity so with the customer setting his boiler temperature to perhaps 170f the domestic hot water which should not be above 140f was reaching 170f with risk of scalding. Many plumbers fitted a copper radiator or towel radiator off the DHW secondary circuit to act as a heat sink. (This is why I suggest you forget gravity circulation)
Another problem could be that when the boiler was put on for hot water only, unwanted gravity creep could take place on the heating circuit. A fitting called a dumball could be used which was basically a fitting with a ball blocking flow but would lift off its seat with the slight pressure from the pump but not by gravity. Didn?t always work though and often a manual valve was then fitted to the heating circuit. But never a valve on the primaries, (Golden Rule)
The manufacturers came to the rescue with the three port valve and cylstat and no more problems.
The above are two examples of cross feeding between circuits. Now I can only visualise your system and there are many ways systems can be piped and wired so I am only theorising, but I understand you to have a separate flow and return from your boiler with a pump controlled by the cylstat.
When your cylstat says switch off to the pump?.doesn?t gravity circulation then continue to the cylinder?.
If you have two pipes from the boiler up to the cylinder it must do which negates the point of having a cylstat to a pump. The circ pump in your primaries will not stop gravity circulation when off.
I admire your own design system and providing you follow the golden rules of always allowing open access from your boiler to the expansion/vent pipe and not fitting valves in the wrong place the only thing you can lose is efficiency. Incidentally I don't understand the one way valves (check valves) you have installed.
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Alvin
My sloppy use of language I suspect, I wrote "one way valve" but it presumably is what you called a "dumball". Will only open in the direction of flow with a light pressure from the pump pressure.
Your supposition of what I have is correct but with the addition of said valves. I also use 4 separate pipe connections to the boiler, a go and return for heating, a go and return for HW. The go for HW is directly connected to open vent. I am pretty sure that when I did the design and specn 13 yrs ago that this would have been an acceptable design from the manufacturer (Potterton) spec sheets.
One other question that you will probably answer immediately, (I am fully aware of need for permanently open expansion pipe ie no valve etc). Is it acceptable that the water feed from the make up tank connects to the expansion pipe. (ie that is close to the make up tank, rather than as a separate feed down to close to the boiler).
I am aware of the principles involved re "overpumping" and presumably problems concerning the pump "ingesting air" if inadequate head exists on the water feed. it is the custom and practice that I am short off!
From my profile you will see the direction from which I approach problems :)
Many thanks
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pmh (was peter)
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Peter, Yes I can see from your profile that you would go into self install in a professional manner and not simply leap in without understanding the basic principles.
As regards connecting the feed from the make up pipe into the expansion pipe close to the tank this is not something I have seen and would be wary of it. You would perhaps only have a few inches of water above the tee piece and if for any reason the level fell below this you would get an ingress of air. (Not that I can see why this level would fall)
However the cold feed and expansion/vent pipe are doing two different jobs in different directions if you think about it.
If for some reason such as perhaps overheating and the expansion blows over into the tank the make up pipe is immediately doing its job feeding back down into the system. One pipe can?t do this at the same time.
Normally the expansion /vent pipe would be taken from the flow pipe before it enters the top connection of the cylinder. And usually we would connect the make up pipe into the return in a similar position. So there is no need to feed down to the boiler.
These are not hard and fast locations but one rule that should be followed is that these two pipes should not be located so that the system will see this as another heating circuit, and may blow over the expansion pipe into the make up tank and immediately make up on the negative pressure side of the pump. Perhaps haven?t put that very well but sure you will follow what I mean..
Designing your own system can be a great source of interest and you can use two port valves to great effect to zone different heating circuits to open at different times either through the programmer or roomstats providing far greater control than thermostatic rads etc.
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A group of us are heading on holiday to New Orleans for the first couple of weeks in May.
We want to stay right in the French Quarter and would welcome any comments from backroomers who may have been there as to best hotels and guest houses.
It has to be pretty close to all the action as one of our party is disabled and cannot walk too far.
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French Quarter Suites Hotel on Rampart
Not a hotel as such, but a selection of fully equipped "apartments", including full sized bathrooms, dining rooms, etc. Hotel also provides breakfast in the garden room (American style breakfast which sometimes includes chocolate cream filled doughnuts.......y****** yum......)
www.frenchquartersuites.com
I haven't been for a few years but loved it then.
ps Enjoy the shoeshine men - if they're good enough, it's worth the rip-off!
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I researched NO a few months back with a view to going to the Mardi Gras next month (in the end, motor racing at Sebring in March won...).
Try looking for Mardi Gras web sites as they often had forums where you could ask, and also links to accomodation sites.
Start with www.nola.com/, and for Mardi Gras info their forum is at www.nola.com/forums/mardigras/
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Duchess - Thank you for the pointer , looks very nice on the website so we have spoken to them and got a very good rate for a two bedroom suite.Looks to be exactly what we want.
A couple of questions - how far away is Bourbon St bearing in mind one of our party is on crutches and cannot walk too far?
It looks quite close on the map but they can be deceptive.
The other question is how safe is the area in your opinion as on another forum there was a bad review ( only bad one of 13 good )saying that the area was dangerous?
Of course the bad review may have been written by a competitor but I'd value your thoughts on this.
Chocolate Cream Filled Doughnuts noted - I'm not averse to a doughnut myself as the scales will testify.
Ah well - The diet starts tomorrow....
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helicopter,
It's probably two hundred yards or so from Rampart to Bourbon Street but (uniquely to a US city) most of the French Quarter is meant to be walked around so you may need to plan your days/nights carefully if walking is a problem.
I wouldn't want to walk around the side streets in the area alone at night but that applies to almost any urban environment. There was a known problem with pickpockets, particularly in the heavy tourist parts such as Bourbon Street and the market. However balanced against that is a very heavy and visible police presence.
On a side note, if you can drink pints of lager you will be a local hero. For some reason (prohibition?) Americans think anyone who can "drink beer from a bucket" is amazing. Strange people.
Hope you have a really great time.
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Thanks duchess - we were a bit concerned about the area by one review on the Trip Advisor website and in the Rough Guide.
We are hopefully booking it up later today - I am looking forward to it.
I'm not a lager drinker - but yes I agree strange people.
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It is getting to be increasingly difficult to find spectacles with lenses large enough to accomodate bifocals. I've recently bought a new pair which are borderline with regard to the reading part hampering long distance vision. And even then I had to compomise on the style. What's the answer? Is the fashion for small lenses a passing phase which, hopefully, will soon pass? I've tried varifocals in the past but couldn't get on with them at all.
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L\'escargot by name, but not by nature.
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I was browsing specs on the web yesterday. There appear to be great savings to be made, and generally feedback on these sites in other forums is good. Some sites describe quite well what kinds of lens the frame is suited to.
Have a look at
www.optical4less.com/
www.glassesonline.co.uk/
www.39dollarglasses.com/
www.iris-spectacles.co.uk/
www.spex4less.co.uk/
and there's probably more...
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If you have your prescription, and a copy style/size try to get somebody to get them made in the Far East.
Less than $15 US for single vision glasses from Vietnam with Frames that say Made in Italy! Quality at least as good as my UK sourced glasse which cost £100 with frames 'made in Korea'!!!
You may have a problem with Bifocals as IIRC it is necessary to do more measurements on eye to lens distance.
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pmh (was peter)
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How long did you try varifocls for ? It takes a while but its well worth it in the end.
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I have varifocals in small lenses. They are borderline size wise but they still work ok, bit more head movement required perhaps but still does the job.
Nicole (who has *appaling* uncorrected eyesight - no comments about choice of PAPA partner please) wears varifocals or contact lenses.
She is trying out a pair of contact lenses where one lens is set for long sight and one for short sight. After an initial struggle with them she now reports the system works rather well.
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I'm after a new chair to use while working on the computer, I saw one I liked in Tesco and it felt good, ready to buy and none in stock. Looking to spend about £50 for one with arms and a reasonable build quality. Been to staples but they all seem to be poor in this price range, can any Back roomer suggest a place to buy one or recommend a good chair (don't mind spending more for a really good one) ?
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Carl - I am sitting in my study at home on a very nice comfortable leather office managers chair called IIRC the Blenheim, this is high backed, wheeled and height and angle adjustable.
I also looked in Staples and was not impressed with the selection.
I bought two of these chairs at Office World store local to me for £69 each ( self assembly was a 5 minute job ).
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There's usually a good selection on eBay - where I got mine from a commercial supplier somewhere in E. Anglia IIRC.
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I got a perfectly good one at around that price,and for the same reason, at Offie World a couple of years ago.
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PS. Otherwise, watch the local auction rooms.
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Office World are now part of the Staples Group. Seem to be closing the OW store where there are duplications eg here in Northampton.
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We have just had a porch put on the front of our house. The roof bit was already there, we just had it enclosed. This required a dwarf wall to be built, windows and door added and a concrete floor laid. We want to put a wooden floor down. The chap who put the floor down todl us to leave it for a while to allow the concrete to dry. How long should we leave it? The floor area is about 4 m2 but I don't know how thick the concrete is. I have a humidity meter in there at the moment and it reads above 90% with the windows closed - so still quite wet. (that's air humidity, not a measurement of the concrete itself). How will I know whenit is dry enough for a flor?
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7 days should be ok in normal circumstances, but a porch like this probably will be cold and damp as it outside the main part of the building and is exposed. I assume that there is no heat emitter (radiator) in the porch?
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No readiators and yes it is currently cold and damp. I'm sure the builder said a couple of months before we did any wooden flooring.
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If your humidity reading is that high, then you probably need some ventilation in the porch. Have you considered buying/hiring a de-humidifier? It will both warm and de-humidify the porch. The humidity in the air will stop the concrete drying out. On the other hand, drying it out too quickly can cause the concrete to crack.
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Get a reputable flooring company to measure the water content in the concrete is the only real answer but you may well find it could be a couple of months.
When I had my kitchen extended some years ago SWMBO wanted a wooden floor, got a friend along who actually specialised in wooden floors. He said he would come around and take a reading, then said he would come back in three months, ended up just under five months before he would contemplate laying the floor!
He reckoned that if you laid them earlier you might get away with it but it was an expensive hobby to get wrong if the wood absorbed the water still in the concrete and expanded.
He had had the job of taking the wooden flooring out of a local factory that stood empty for a few years with a leaky roof. He maintained that it was no exagerration that the floor had bulged so much at the centre, due to absorbing water, that he had to crouch to not bang his head on the roof.
Cockle
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As a chartered surveyor I have acted on two jobs where a floor covering was faulty becuase of being laid too early on a new concrete floor.
I would allow a minimum of six months for it to dry out fully, even in a ventilated and heated conservatory. Both cases I adviused that the contractor was not to blame because they could prove that the customer instructed them to lay the floor before the time the builder said it was OK to go ahead.
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Espada III - well if you have a family and need a Lamborghini, what else do you drive?
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Why have wood?
Area will get some traffic with the ins and outs and would soon look scruffy?
Visit a Tile Warehouse and see what's on offer. You will be surprised at the variety and appearance. Easy to lay and simple to keep clean.
Just a thought. Save a tree???
DVD
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What's the best way to commission a new radiator central heating system? It's a conventional system with 15mm pipework.
Or does anyone know of a good plumbing forum?
Thanks in advance.
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Depending on the size of your house use either one or two doeses of corrosion inhibitor, available from Screwfix and DIY stores. Keep this by for now.
Make sure your zone valves (if you have them) are fully open so that both the CH and the HW primary circuit are open, but don't switch the system on. You may find it easier to remove the motors from the zone valves and open them up manually. Usually 2 screws diagonally opposed and accessable from the back hold the motors on the valves.
Make sure all your radiator valves are fully open as well.
Then allow the header tank to fill from your rising main in the normal way.
Wait until the header tank is full and the ball valve shuts itself.
Then working from the lowest radiator in the house, bleed each radiator on the ground floor until you get a steady stream of water coming out of the bleed screw. Whilst you are doing this, check for any leaks around the radiador valves and joints. these should be dealt with immediately, even if it means draining part of the system to do it (this is why I said keep the inhibitor by for now).
Do the same for the first floor, again tackling the lowest rad if the floor is on a split level, then do the same for each floor in turn.
When you get to the floor with the hot water cylinder, treat that as a radiator. The primary circuit that delivers the HW will be fitted with a bleed screw, usually accessable near the cylinder.
Run your system as normal for a few days then when it is off, try the rads and the primary circuit to the HW cylinder in turn for any more air that may have worked itself to a high point in the system.
Check for leaks again. then when you are satisfied that there are none, you may want to partly drain the system just so that the header tank is empty then add the inhibitor, then allow the tank to refill. This makes sure the inhibitor is not just residing in you header tank.
You may find now that some of your rads kick out excessive heat whereas some don't heat certain rooms enough. This is where you have to 'balance' the rads. Rads in hallways, corridors and toilets etc will not need to work as hard as those in bedrooms. Use the lockshield valves (the ones that are not usually adjustable by hand) to regulate the flow through these, and force more water through the more needy rads. A few trial runs will help you get it right. I solved a similar problem for a client of mine recently by doing this on a radiator in a toilet that gave her extra heat in a nearby bedroom.
Other people may differ in their approach, but that has worked well for me in the past.
Hugo
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To balance you are supposed to clip a thermometer on the flow pip and one on the return of each radiator in turn and measure the heat drop - cant remember the number in degrees celcius tho.
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>r does anyone know of a good plumbing forum?
There are some no doubt but the advice from here is usually very sound and practical. (As evinced by Hugo's response above)
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Thanks for the advice everyone. The fun will occur with the balancing as the system is heating an annexe as well which is like a spur off the main system. I presume radiator thermometers are available at plumbers' merchants? I've just found out that the temperature drop across a radiator measured on the flow and return pipes should be 10 degrees C.
Cheers,
Nick
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Another quick thought. Should I balance the rads with the hot water circuit on or off?
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I've just found out that the temperature drop across a radiator measured on the flow and return pipes should be 10 degrees C.
Nick, Don?t take this too literally. There are so many variables to consider. If I still had my FH Overtons text book from my younger days I could quote you chapter and verse but basically this figure of 10c (if correct) would be taken under certain conditions.
It would firstly be taken with the flow and return to the boiler operating at a certain figure. This would be something like 180f on the flow and the return at 160f.
The next and most important factor would be room temperature. If you think about it if the temperature is lower the transmission of heat is faster and outlet pipe of the radiator would be much cooler.
Conversely as the room warms up the transmission is lower and the radiator outlet would retain more heat.
Going from the sublime to?.if the room temperature reached the same temperature as the radiator (impossible I know) there would be no heat transmission and the radiator inlet and outlet would be the same.
There are other variables such as the size of the radiator in relation to the size of the room, and the location of the radiator in the room. Whether it is a one pipe system or two?
Balancing is important if you have one or two rads which are noticably different, but many systems are put in and feel of hand tells you its OK. Follow Hugo?s advice on the commissioning and be prepared to spend some time on balancing which a commercial installer can?t afford as it can be time consuming.
But by all means have a bit of fun and try and get them all the same but don?t get too pedantic and start pulling your hair out racing from room to room cursing if they don?t all match each other. Which they probably won?t because one room will have warmed up quicker than another which will then reduce the differential across the rad.
And your question as to whether you should leave the DHW on or off ! if you have a modern 3 port diverting valve system you can?t have both on at the same time. Its one or the other?.
Good luck.
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Hi Alvin,
Thanks for the info.
Your comment on the 3 port valve is interesting. I always thought the whole point of a 3 port valve is that you can have ch, hw or ch+hw, with the diverter in the valve to one side if only ch or hw is asked for, or in the middle thus splitting the flow if both are asked for.
Does this mean if the programmer has ch and hw specified, the heating is off until the cylinder is satisfied?
Cheers
Nick
PS who could have thought ch could be so interesting. Or am I a sad person?
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As I understand it, there are two types of 3port valve - diverter, which is either CH or DHW, and mid-position, which is CH or DHW or both. What you have will depend on type of system installed.
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Apologies. Should have added, for those contributors to the first question on this thread, still struggling with heating system, but cylstat looks likely candidate for chop. Will follow on.
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There is a very comprehensive brief on balancing radiators at:
www.diyfaq.org.uk/plumbing/rad-balance.html
I did this to my system and the house gets much warmer much quicker than it did previously and rooms at the ends of the pipe runs heat up properly too whereas they never used to.
This is all in a new build house less than 6 years old.
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You may well be right lads its many years since I retired from this business and it used to be that you wired it to prioritise one or the other. Normally the cylstat would have priority and after the ladies had used all the hot water in their baths it would turn your heating off to re-heat the DHW. (perhaps not such a great idea) Don't recall a 3 port with three positions.
Not sure how you would wire one to give a position on the 3 port to supply both sides but no doubt it could be done.
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Hi,
About a month ago I noticed my wallet, which had been faithful for the past 3 years, had starting to develop a hole in the change pocket. Whilst I haven't had any moth-eaten jokes yet, I can't seem to find a high street shop that has a suitable choice of decent wallets. The best one I've come across so far is Next, but their all a bit small on the change pocket side and most don't have a photo window.
My current wallet is a Ben Sherman which has a decent change pocket and lots of room for cards. I got this one from Allders in Coventry but it would mean a trip over there just for a wallet!
Any ideas?
Mike Farrow
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My last one of the type you describe gave out after just over 40 years. I replaced it with a very similar one from the local weekly market for a fiver.
There are stalls selling wallets at all the markets I have been to - any near you?
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In RLBS...
Not sure what style you're after, but a couple of suggestions to try:
Legends (top of Parade/Royal Priors)
House of Fraser
HTH
Charles
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Is Bicester close to RLBS? If so, the outlet village there has a Samsonite shop which does a nice range of (leather) wallets. I bought 3 the last time I was there, which was several years ago and I'm on my second one now!
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Can someone please explain to me a Honeywell motorised two port valve? I got a data sheet from their site but it is shows only a motor coil and a single pole changeover switch. The valve is the V4043B series and I looked at the 1265 28mm N/O one.
I assume applying mains to the coil will cause the motor to run and change the state of the valve and also the switch will change state when this is complete.
Thus the previous N/C pair of contacts can be put in series with motor coil to remove the motor supply when they open.
1) Presumably the valve now stays where it is?
2) Question: How do I get the valve back to where it was? Intuition tells me it is no use applying the mains to the motor coil in reverse.
3) The blurb says "the normally closed models have end switches for electrical control of the pump etc. If I choose a N/O one do I still get a switch but it is just that the contacts are for a lighter load? Surely there must still be a switch?
It looks like I could use mains via a hot-tank thermostat and the valve contacts to close the valve when heat is enough (assuming 1 and 3) but I also need to open the valve when more heat is needed and, for that, I first need to know how the valve works. I did once see something about "spring return" but not sure if these valves have it or how it works.
Thanks.
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This is just an intuitivre guess coupled with what I remeber from a chat with my plumber a couple fo years ago when he replaced the three way valve in my central heating system.
The motor turns when volts are applied, and keeps turning until it stalls. Once power is removed, a spring return pulls the valve to its unpowered position.
The Normally Closed (N/C) and Normally Open (N/C) are presumably used for either turning the pump on or the pump off when the valve is in its powered on position. Whether you want the pump running when the valve is in the powered position will be dependant on how the plumbing runs to teh rest of the system.
Doubtless someone will be along later with a definitive answer, but I hope this is some use for now.
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I read often, only post occasionally
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correct. The motor has power applied to it until it stalls, and power keeps it there. The spring returns the lever. The switch is used to signal valve open to pump (or boiler and via that then pump)
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Oh. Easier than I thought, thanks. Just confirm for me that it is OK to leave the power applied continuously to the stalled motor so as to maintain that state of the valve.
If so, it sounds great. I can use the thermostat contacts to power the motor and the motor contacts to signal the state of the hot tank to the controller instead of the thermostat and all works as was.
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Well thats the way the motor/valve is designed. Its a synchronous motor so it does not harm it, however they get quite warm and fail after 5-10 years. Motor is replaceable as a service item tho.
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Can we please have a separate Central Heating thread?????????????
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Espada III - well if you have a family and need a Lamborghini, what else do you drive?
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Hurry up - a lot of people are freezing!
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I'm getting a little worried about you RF and just what it is you specialise in. IT - know everything (in a good way) and now central heating!
Are you a Heating/I.T. Engineer???
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Adam
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Well Adam, IT pays the bills. 25 years of home ownership and DIY on everything (from tele's to plumbing) provides the rest.
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Under the new rules/regulations just what DIY electrics are you allowed to do without getting the work inspected?
Can you, for example,
(a) Disconnect/connect a cooker at an existing cooker switch box?
(b) Connect a spur to a ring main junction box and install a new socket?
(c) Connect a spur to an existing socket on a ring main and install a new socket?
Are there any official written guidelines regarding what you can or cannot do?
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L\'escargot by name, but not by nature.
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L'escargot - if you have newsgroup access, uk.d-i-y would be the place to ask.
My understanding (from a program on radio 4 over the New Year) was that most stuff like adding sockets and spurs would be fine, but almost any work done in bathroom/kitchen/outdoors needs to be inspected or done professionally
If anyone finds a definitive link, it would be nice to see !
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Basic work outside of kitchens and bathrooms such as addition of spur, replacing socket or light fitting ok. Replacement of consumer unit or work in kitchen or outdoors can be DIY but must be inspected. Look for official docs on the ODPM website refering to Part P of building regs.
Inspection regime can work in two ways....use a registered electrician or issue a building notice then DIY and local BCO checks everything....but they are not too happy about this and would prefer everyone to employ an electrician.
Mixed in with this change is the harmonised cable colours...all new T+E fixed cabling has new EU wide colour schemes. So on later inspection new coloured cables on major work without inspection paperwork is going to look a little odd.
StarGazer
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Mixed in with this change is the harmonised cable colours...all new T+E fixed cabling has new EU wide colour schemes. So on later inspection new coloured cables on major work without inspection paperwork is going to look a little odd.
Yes, and it's even more confusing as you can have two different colours schemes in different installation. Even more confusing is that in the world of 3-phase, black is now a phase, not neutral.
I was told by an electrician friend of mine that eventually you will need to have your electrics certified BEFORE you're allowed to sell your house. How true this is I don't know.
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www.partp.co.uk/news_result.asp?id=1730
...for all your 'part P' needs.
The most interesting line from this is the "punishment" you will recieve if you don't follow their guidelines (by emphasis):
"Failure to comply could lead to householders being required to bring the work up to standard and may make it more difficult to sell their homes."
(TIC) If I was a) a homeowner and b) planning to do any electrical work, I'd be quaking in my boots!
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Even if you do involve the BCO for notifiable work, you'll still be required to demonstrate an installation test.
The basic installation test kit starts at around £525. You'll need more than a neon light screwdriver, socket tester and multi meter to satisfy the BCO. Plus you'll need to know the correct procedure for testing and inspection. There are places that can hire these test sets out. However their correct use is absolute key from a safety point of view. Testers work with exposed conductors and connections.
Part P will take most electrical DIY tasks outside the scope of the average DIYer. Depending on where you live your local council may charge you anything from £35 to £300 for inspecting a grands worth of work.
Electrical work that is part of an extension or other work notifiable under the building regs would be included. SO if you're managing the work yourself but hire a sparky to do the electrics, you may be just as well off involving the BCO for the electrics as well.
If a project has started before Jan 1st and the BCO have ben notified before this date as well, then it is not necessary to involve the BCO in any of the electrical work, ie Part P is not applicable. This is good to know as I have raised a building notice that covers virtually all my current renovation project!
Hugo
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If a project has started before Jan 1st and the BCO have ben notified before this date as well, then it is not necessary to involve the BCO in any of the electrical work, ie Part P is not applicable. This is good to know as I have raised a building notice that covers virtually all my current renovation project! Hugo
Hugo,
It is surprising how just before the new harmonised colour cables were available there was a run on buying stocks of black and red T+E cable. I certainly have a small stock to allow me to make minor alterations without colour changes. The one major change I wanted to make (rewire kitchen before refitting) I made sure was completed before Part P became applicable.
Alterations to current installations are also now supposed to carry a warning sticker that two colour codes may be in use in the installation.
This has been in the pipeline for over a year now. Much discussion in uk.diy but two jags has brought this in despite very dubious statistics (4 fatalities due to electrical faults, all of which were due to portable apparatus and none due to faulty fixed wiring which is all that is covered by part P. Lots of people and tradespersons wrote complaining but no notice was taken.
StarGazer
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'Lots of people and tradespersons wrote complaining but no notice was taken '
Par for the course!
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I've just been looking on the Land Register Online website for information about the entry for my house in the Land Register, and I discovered that there is another property (about 100 yards away on the other side of the road) with the same Title Number. I was under the impression (perhaps mistakenly) that a Title Number referred to one property only. Could anyone explain this apparent (well, in my opinion anyway) anomaly?
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L\'escargot by name, but not by nature.
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Land Registry Title Numbers are unique and if there are two the same you should ring your Land Registry office and tell them. The details of the relevant office wil be found on the website.
You might also want to have a look at www.nethouseprices.com as this will give you some very interesting information about the actual sale prices of houses. Very useful for my job as a valuation surveyor.
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Espada III - well if you have a family and need a Lamborghini, what else do you drive?
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Land Registry Title Numbers are unique and if there are two the same you should ring your Land Registry office and tell them.
I paid £4 to see the documentation of the other property online, but was shown the documentation for mine. It appears that although the other property is indicated as having my title number, this is a typo. I hope they're more careful with the records proper! You can also see house prices on landregisteronline.gov.uk and mouseprice.com but only for transactions from 2000 onwards.
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L\'escargot by name, but not by nature.
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www.landregisteronline.gov.uk
and www.mouseprice.com
Is that better now I've put in all the w's?
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L\'escargot by name, but not by nature.
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How do you get bluetack marks off painted walls?
(Yes, I know I should have used white bluetak three years ago!)
Thanks
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Try a bit of sugar soap.
If it's vynal paint then this is fairly non porus. The matt emulsions may give you a headache though.
H
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Doersn't rolling more bluetac over it gently work? That's how I get residue off - staining is another matter.
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I want to install an outside tap. Is a check valve needed?
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I believe you would need one, but I would fit one as a matter of course to enable easy maintenance of the tap.
You can get these outside tap kits that have a self cutting tap that goes on your cold water supply. DIY stores sell them for around £13 each.
You screw a clamp onto the 15mm pipe and then valve body then screws in to the pipe and cuts into it.
A rubber seal in the arrangement is there to stop any leaks.
All you need is a stout 25mm masonery bit to drill through the wall.
Hugo
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Assuming you mean a valve to isolate the tap, I don't know about necessary, but I'd suggest it would be wise - If somebody damages the tap, you don't want to be without water until you get it fixed
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An outside pipe will also be at some risk of bursting through frost, so a shut-off valve in the supply would be a distinct advantage. A screwdriver-operated kind, the type they call a service valve, will do.
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Just what I was going to recommend. The valves are called 'ballofix' valves? or somthing like that.
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Espada III - well if you have a family and need a Lamborghini, what else do you drive?
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Thanks all. No prizes for guessing what I'm up to this weekend!
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You do need check valve (non-return valve) so that dirty water from say a hose does not find its way back into your drinking water supply.
These valves are usually supplied with the kit, or incorporated in the o/s tap.
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Doc is quite right. Also the reason is not just that it finds its way into your drinking water but also into the entire supply main.
Imagine that you have your hosepipe in to your pond and the end of the hose is below the water.
The water board at this time shuts off the mains supply perhaps to carry out repairs.
There is then a negative pressure in the main and your pond water (contaminated) begins to siphon back into the main.
Not only is this a nuisance to the repair men as they can't get a clean shutdown of the main but also of carrying contaminated water into the whole system.
Not only do you need a check valve but the regulations of at least Severn Trent and now I believe National water regulations is that a double check valve is required.
There are now a whole range of regs to prevent this backfeed.
For example silencer pipes on ball valves are no longer allowed. The Portsmouth type brass ball valve used to have a fine thread on the underside to use such a pipe but no longer.
Cold water feed tanks must have a spill over level above overflow before water can get into a open ball valve. Screened overflows and several more regs were bought in many years ago.
Normally you would fit the double check valve on the outside wall just before the bib tap. Only a small piece of equipment but essential.
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I think you do need a double check valve now. But unless someone is going to check, I'd leave it off. They can jam up in time and they reduce the flow rate quite considerably. IMHO they're an over-reaction to a problem that rarely happens in the real world. Outdoor taps can now have them built in, but they're easy enough to remove if you wish.
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"IMHO they're an over-reaction to a problem that rarely happens in the real world."
IMHO, they're not.
Read;
www.wvdhhr.org/oehs/eed/Cross_Connections_and_Back...f
You want page 8, Backflow Incidents. The incident on Page 9 regarding the Holy Cross football team is well known in the US. A hepatitis carrier had urinated in a sprinkler pit. Another such incident concerned a 'mortician'. The details can be imagined.
The US has a history of this because they've permitted direct mains connections for a long time. Expect a serious incident here soon.
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Nick, No the risk is quite substantial and not a rare occurrence. Unnoticed by most people the Water Board are constantly checking for the presence of e-coli in water supplies to your house. If detected depending on the level of contamination it can be a close down while the mains are sterilised.
In my Establishment supplied from our own 50.000 gallon tank we had both the tank and selected zoned draw off points checked every month with 15 samples taken for analysis. These cost about £5.00 each in my time. Also chemical tests costing around 20£ a throw.
Panic stations when it was once detected. The Board immediately closed down the supply to protect themselves and we had to shut down our supply from the storage tank. This affected 500 inmates and 250 staff and children.
Water bowsers bought in and contractors to sterilise. This consists of chlorine plugs being forced down the main and then diluted chlorine held static in the main for 24 hours. Then repeated flushing through and samples taken.
So it was no small thing for us.
The contamination source can be traced and so it was. It proved to be a tenant owned farm owned by a lord of the realm. They had their own small reservoir but supply from it was sometimes poor and we had allowed many years previously a by-pass from our own main for them to open in these circumstances. The situation allowed for their estate Plumber to open this by-pass with our permission. In practice he used to sneak in and open it unknowingly to us for which he had been reprimanded several times.
Immediately I knew the source I sent a Plumber to remove the by-pass 3? supply valve and flange it off.
The Estate Manager arrived hours later red faced with rage and demanded I reinstate it or he would contact Lord *****. I refused and told him that we were not a water supply company and tax payers had been subsidising him with free unmetered water. I also suggested he paid us for the cost of the contamination.
Diplomatic relations were never again re-established in my time and tit for tat retaliatory attacks were made by both of us for years. Lordy stopped our Staff from running though his estate on their lunch time exercise run. We stopped cutting his hedgerow and other tasks. Lordy diverted a stream which fed our small lake??.
Anyway I digress..it does happen and the Water Boards are on their toes with water standards and can trace contamination sources and able and do take draconian measures.
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afm, Thats a brilliant site and saves all my waffling. Our regulations regarding cross flow backfeeding and air gaps are very similar to the US.
msfarrow, Yes your'e quite right about an air gap between the Boards spply and your own regarding tanks.
We have Class A and B air breaks on tanks. Can't recall the difference but basically it means that you have an overflow, then above that is the spill over level which is effectively the top of the tank where the water can run over. Above that the ball valve must be a minimum of twice the diameter of the supply pipe above the spill level.
This means the ball valve must be mounted above the top of the tank in its own purpose made box.
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I believe if you don't use a check valve, there is a minimum distance (2 inches?) which must be kept between the boards water supply and your own, such as the case with ball valves and storage tanks.
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I have a melody stuck in my head (yes it hurts). Last time I actually heard a recording of it was about 20-25 years ago. 2 weeks ago I heard a co-worker at my workplace whistling the tune and memories came flooding back. Today I finally came across that visitor again and asked him the name of the tune, but he did not know for sure and guessed that the composer was Beethoven. I have spent the last two hours (and still at it) sampling Beethoven's music on Amazon.com and have yet to come across it.
The melody as I remember it was not of a classical composition, not sure if I am describing that correctly, but whatever, it wasn't played by a symphony or violins etc. The sound was more of an electronic organ and if I had to guess, probably was recorded in the 50's or 60's. The sound is similar to that of "Happy organ" by Dave Cortez or "Telstar" by the Tornadoes. Of course it isn't either of those two and I have already invested considerable time sampling organ music and instrumentals from that era as provided again by Amazon.com
I have heard of that mobile phone music identification service, but they need a 30 second sample of the music, which I do not have. I have asked many other people at work and with my pathetic attempt at whistling, most say they have heard the tune before, but the trail ends there.
Any other suggestions?.
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"Any other suggestions?."
Besides making sure you change the subject header to suit your question. 8-)
{And also replying to the topmost message as it's a new question!! Both of which I've now sorted out. DD}
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Green Onions?
Or is that just a rumour?
V
PS. Create an MP3 of you whistling it. Post it on a website. Give us a link. That should only take a week or so of frustration, unless someone on here knows better.
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B. Bumble and the Stingers?
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It isn't Green Onions, I also listened to a few other Booker T tracks to see if they could have done it.
The whistle MP3 is a good idea, I just don't have enough confidence in my whistling ability and usually lose it mid tune.
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"Time is tight"? (as featured in the Blues Brothers)
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Something by Harry J & the All Stars? Can't remember the name which is sad because I used to use it as my theme tune when a cinema projectionist.
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popcorn?
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Espada III - well if you have a family and need a Lamborghini, what else do you drive?
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Last Night by the Mar Keys?
Can't post a direct link but look on amazon.COM (sic) for Rock Instrumental Classics Vol 4. There's a listen link on there.
This could go on forever...
V
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The Liquidator?.
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The Liquidator?.
That's the one I was thinking of.
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This will be of limited help, but I remember seeing a news item about a library that specialised in identifying bits of music, including trying to help people 'der der derring' a tune down the telephone.
Maybe a google for music identification and library?
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You can sing (dum de dum) it down the phone to Shazzam (2580 from a mobile), but I can't remember whether it needs 30 seconds or not. I think not but I could be wrong.
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There used to be a website where you whistled or hummed down you computer's microphone and the website identified it.
I have a question too - how can anyone confuse Popcorn with anything Beethoven wrote ??
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