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Daihatsu Skywing - Petrol "Too Good?" - edlithgow

Usually put 92 in The Wing, but its a while since its last decoke, I THINK the handbook says 95, and I was planning on using it for a student field trip the next day (1 from each of 4 groups, early Sunday start) so I told the yoof 95, to "be safe".

Looking at the pump more closely there were two grades, with 95-1 the more expensive, which is what I got. Not noticed this before,

Drove OK and started OK the next (this) morning, but when I stopped it to go to the cash machine it wouldn’t restart.

Might be coincidence, but its been running OK since I cleaned the contacts. OTOH it could be the pricy petrol has more detergent in it and has stirred up muck, blocking things. I doubt it was driven long enough after refill to foul plugs, but maybe long enough to empty the float chamber and fuel filter.

Only two students turned up, giving me a (rather thin) excuse to cancel, otherwise I’d have trained and taxi’d. Unfair on them but saved me some embarrassment, time and money,

Daihatsu Skywing - Petrol "Too Good?" - Railroad.

Highly unlikely to be anything to do with the fuel's octane rating, but you may have picked up some bad fuel containing moisture. That shouldn't happen, but it can happen.

Daihatsu Skywing - Petrol "Too Good?" - edlithgow

Clearly not the octane, since I've used 95 quite often. I'm curious as to what the -1 and -2 designations (which I'm assuming are nothing to do with octane) mean, though, since I havnt noticed them before. If they are related to detergency, say, they could be relevant,

There was no firing. I suppose suggestive of no fuel (or no spark).

If fuelling was at all a factor I suppose it wouldn’t necessarily be the fuel as delivered that was the problem, since the tank was pretty low, so simply filling it up might have stirred up gunk from the bottom.

I have drained the tank in the past, and got some water out, but that's a few years ago.

Anyway, a definitive answer isn’t likely (pending investigation at least, which I don’t have time for right now).

Daihatsu Skywing - Petrol "Too Good?" - skidpan

Don't know for definite but pretty sure that the BS EN specs in Europe do not apply to the rest of the world but I would expect the RON ratings to be international.

Back in about 2002 I tried the widely advertised Shell 98 RON fuel with super dupa detergents etc in the Caterham as an experiment. Fine for the first couple of tank fulls, seemed a bit better on MPG but not enough to justify buying it unless I was actually driving past that filling station. But during the 3rd tank it began to run increasingly poorly and when I checked the plugs they were black. Cleaned the plugs, filled tank with the usual Asda 95 and normal service was resumed.

Some months when chatting to a Caterham mate I discovered he had experienced exactly the same issue.

Since his car had a VX redtop using Dellorto carbs and mine was a Zetec on Webers it being engine/carb specific was ruled out. And the fuel we bought was form different garages (in different counties but only about 30 miles apart). Only common factor with the cars, both engines were set up by the same tuner but several years apart

Neither of us has used anything other than normal fuel since.

The fuel was either too good for the cars (unlikely) or total rubbish.

Daihatsu Skywing - Petrol "Too Good?" - edlithgow

Americans use some weird hybrid rating system (can't remember the details offhand but of course its documented online) but (slightly surprisingly, since they tend to be US wannabe) Taiwan uses RON

I looked it up. According to Wiki, US and a few other places use AKI, which is the mean of RON and MON, the latter being similar but measured under different experimental conditions, producing lower numbers.by about 8-12.

Although interesting, I don't find the plug fouling you describe all that surprising after 3 tank fulls. It was a known phenomenon when high octanes were achieved with tetraethyl lead, so I suppose some of the more modern octane raisers (or detergents) might also leave deposits.

I don't THINK Its likely to be the case here because I don't think there was time for plug fouling, 95 isn't very high octane either, though I suppose detergents might also foul plugs. When I investigate I'll have a look at the plugs, but I have looming end-of-term grading deadlines to meet first.

Edited by edlithgow on 18/01/2021 at 13:45

Daihatsu Skywing - Petrol "Too Good?" - skidpan

Although interesting, I don't find the plug fouling you describe all that surprising after 3 tank fulls. It was a known phenomenon when high octanes were achieved with tetraethyl lead,

This was 2002 and the Shell fuel was what we would call super unleaded in the UK i.e. no lead. Despite what many say on here the car has only ever had those 3 fill ups with 98 RON, the rest of the time its supermarket 95 RON petrol and for the 20 years the Zetec has been in the car its run perfectly.

Before I fitted the Zetec the car ran a x-flow for about 13 years. That engine needed leaded petrol and 97 RON was the norm in that period. Again never had a single issue with plug fouling.

So to sum up only one plug fouling episode in the 32 years I have had the Caterham and that was after 98 RON Shell unleaded (the stuff people insist is the best) was used for a short time. Other than cleaning the plugs and reverting to 95 RON supermarket fuel no work was carried out and the car reverted to running perfectly. Its always run perfectly on supposed inferior petrol before and after.

Daihatsu Skywing - Petrol "Too Good?" - focussed

I guess that the volumes of UL95 sold in UK and french filling stations far exceeds UL 98 so it's possible that UL98 gets to be stale if the throughput isn't high.

I have had a similar stale fuel problem with motorcycles after winter storage, so now I drain the tanks down in the spring, fill with 5 litres of fresh 95 to get me to a petrol station and use the drained fuel in the mowers. I don't use it in the generator as it hesitates when coming on load on the stale fuel.

Then of course there are the changes to the fuel that we don't know about.

Looking back over a quarter of a century or perhaps longer, there have been changes to:

octane quality: loss of “two star” petrol in 1989-1990
lead in petrol: withdrawal of leaded petrol at the end of the twentieth century
boiling characteristics of petrol (also called volatility): progressive increase in the use of very volatile components in the fuel blend
use of ethanol in petrol: initially at 5% volume, but with the expectation that 10% volume, and possibly higher levels in the blend, will become a reality in the future.

www.fbhvc.co.uk/fuels#changing-nature-of-fuels

Edited by focussed on 18/01/2021 at 21:59

Daihatsu Skywing - Petrol "Too Good?" - Railroad.

I guess that the volumes of UL95 sold in UK and french filling stations far exceeds UL 98 so it's possible that UL98 gets to be stale if the throughput isn't high.

I have had a similar stale fuel problem with motorcycles after winter storage, so now I drain the tanks down in the spring, fill with 5 litres of fresh 95 to get me to a petrol station and use the drained fuel in the mowers. I don't use it in the generator as it hesitates when coming on load on the stale fuel.

That is because liquids and solids do not burn. Only gasses burn. Over time the lighter parts of petrol evaporate away leaving the heavy base liquid which will not burn. This is why we say the fuel goes stale. It's very good practice to drain the carburettor float chamber of motorcycles and other small engines if they're going to be left unused for a while. Petrol will eventually go really gummy if it's left unused.....

Daihatsu Skywing - Petrol "Too Good?" - edlithgow

Puzzled as to why you left the second half of my sentence (...so I suppose some of the more modern octane raisers (or detergents) might also leave deposits.) out of your quote, which changes the meaning.

Clearly I'm not suggesting lead caused your problem. I'm suggesting whatever they put in instead of lead caused your problem.

Fuel ageing MIGHT be involved, I suppose, but a loss of volatiles is going to be a lot slower from an underground bulk tank than from a motorcycle (which also suffer here).

I grew up (to the extent that I did) believing that a higher octane than specified gave no benefit, had a lower energy content, and was likely to be harmful, due to deposit formation. This may not apply to all modern engines, some of which may "self tune" to exploit a higher octane, but I've never had one that could do that.

I've always thought the "supermarket petrol BAAAD!" thing sounded like an urban myth. Petrol is nearly a state monopoly here but there is a private refining operation and a couple of private distribution chains, which tend to be very slightly cheaper, with similar unsupported myths in circulation about them. Screeds of nonsense about this (and a bit of "the voice of reason" from that Ducked character. ).

tw.forumosa.com/t/petrol-bought-from-npc-is-watere...1

FWIW (almost nothing) my possibly problematic fill was from a China Petroleum Corporation outlet, which myth mongers say has better quality.

Edited by edlithgow on 19/01/2021 at 09:41

Daihatsu Skywing - Petrol "Too Good?" - V4 Heaven
I’ve had exactly the same issue on my 1997 Toyota Carina E, 1.8 petrol.

Every now and then I would give into the marketing hype and stick some Shell super unleaded in it.

I pedantically took mpg readings every tankful and owned the car for 16 years so was uber familiar with the car’s mpg and its habits.

Every time that I thought I would ‘treat’ it to Shell’s finest, it would chuff rather than tick over nicely and mpg suffered.

I took for an MOT with super unleaded in and the MOT Tester said it had failed and there’s no way that it’ll pass. I burnt the super unleaded off and put supermarket fuel in and it was fine. The MOT Tester was well surprised.

I’ve also tried V Power diesel in my wife’s car and noticed it couldn’t reach the same mpg as normal diesel, so I’m afraid the ‘benefits’ of super unleaded on 10 year old cars and older are lost on me.
Daihatsu Skywing - Petrol "Too Good?" - Big John
so I’m afraid the ‘benefits’ of super unleaded on 10 year old cars and older are lost on me.

It really depends on the design of the engine and management:-

My 2001 1.4 16v Octavia - had expensive tastes, ran much better on higher octane fuel

My 2006 1.2 8v Panda - no real benefit running on higher octane fuel

Edited by Big John on 22/01/2021 at 20:52

Daihatsu Skywing - Petrol "Too Good?" - John F

Oh dear, starting problems again? It seems skywings never actually die.

www.honestjohn.co.uk/forum/post/123646/daihatsu-sk...g

Assuming points are OK, did you ever replace the condenser?

Daihatsu Skywing - Petrol "Too Good?" - edlithgow

Tested it with my multimeter before THAT stopped working, and it seemed OK, plus if it was bust fettling the points and perhaps stopping an unfindable vacuum leak by painting several coats sunflower oil over the intake side wouldn't have restored function, which it did.

But that's a while ago. The condensor could of course have coincidentally failed right after the fill up.

Grades are in, so I now have time to investigate, but AQI is currently a bit higher than I like for working outside.

aqicn.org/map/kaohsiung-city/

Daihatsu Skywing - Petrol "Too Good?" - Bolt

Tested it with my multimeter before THAT stopped working, and it seemed OK, plus if it was bust fettling the points and perhaps stopping an unfindable vacuum leak by painting several coats sunflower oil over the intake side wouldn't have restored function, which it did.

But that's a while ago. The condensor could of course have coincidentally failed right after the fill up.

Grades are in, so I now have time to investigate, but AQI is currently a bit higher than I like for working outside.

aqicn.org/map/kaohsiung-city/

Testing a condenser is a waste of time as they can play up intermittently, Problems like that, points and con were first to be replaced, especially on Vauxhalls, as they were really bad for condenser problems, mind you there were plenty of replacements in those days

Daihatsu Skywing - Petrol "Too Good?" - edlithgow

Pollution died down a bit around dusk so I had a brief fiddle with it, just to confirm it was sparking from the coil HT lead, which it was,

Might get one of those adjustable gap in-line spark testers.

This kind of thing

www.aliexpress.com/i/4000897090455.html

Irritatingly about a month ago I was getting push adds from my browser for a Made in Taiwan one that looked quite well made, but of course now I cant find any trace of it,

Daihatsu Skywing - Petrol "Too Good?" - edlithgow

Ignition capacitors seem to be available still on Ebay from about 6 quid with free postage to the UK.

Postage to Taiwan, OTOH, ranges 25 - 40 quid, a lot when I don't know there is anything wrong with the original. If I can get one locally for under a tenner I will.

Replacement caps are reported to be unreliable, and I wouldn't know if there was anything wrong with that either.

MIGHT be possible to use a non-automotive cap, AFAICT ignition caps generally are in the 0.22-0,3 microfarad range and I suppose have to be able to handle about 500 Volts or so, I'll keep my eyes open.

Meanwhile it seems to have got better, which isn't actually all that reassuring since I just did a general clean up which I doubt was likely to fix anything, so I suppose its consistent with an intermittent cap failure.

Put in a loom bypass from the temperature switch back-probed to the fan relay, starting the engine several times for testing, without any difficulty. (I doubt a back-probed connection is sufficiently robust for long-term use, though, so I will try and make a break-out for the fan relay).

The alternative of opening up the loom and tracing the wire does not appeal.

Edited by edlithgow on 31/01/2021 at 04:38