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Tesla - Ghost in the machine - overnight software updates. - focussed

From an article this morning in The Times detailing that James May and Grant Shapps, both Tesla owners, experienced unannounced software updates and their effects.

"For May, it was as if there was a ghost in the machine when his car — a Tesla Model S — was tugged towards the middle of a narrow road as he hugged the verge to avoid oncoming traffic.

It was a feature that May, 57, did not know that his car had acquired until the drama on a Wiltshire country lane.

“A message came up saying, ‘Corrective steering applied for your safety’,” said May. “I thought: it’s actually not for my safety, because there’s a b***** great tractor coming the other way.”

(Read the handbook James?)

"Shapps, who is overseeing the government’s roll-out policy on automated cars, was also caught unawares by over-the-air changes made by Tesla to the £44,000 Model 3 that he bought last year. When the heating in the rear seats went cold, he assumed there was a malfunction until he learnt that it had been turned off.

“When I first got the car, I noticed it had heated rear seats, but after three months they disappeared. Now, if I want to pay for an upgrade, I can put them back. I have not done so — much to my kids’ disappointment — because Tesla want £300,” said Shapps, 52.

Tesla - Ghost in the machine - overnight software updates. - expat

I believe that after ten years Tesla will no longer support their cars or provide spares.

Tesla - Ghost in the machine - overnight software updates. - John F

“When I first got the car, I noticed it had heated rear seats, but after three months they disappeared. Now, if I want to pay for an upgrade, I can put them back. I have not done so — much to my kids’ disappointment — because Tesla want £300,” said Shapps, 52.

Sounds like ransomware. Criminal minds are probably working on how to hack in to do the same sort of thing.....pay us £300 and your windscreen wipers will work again......

Tesla - Ghost in the machine - overnight software updates. - Bolt

“When I first got the car, I noticed it had heated rear seats, but after three months they disappeared. Now, if I want to pay for an upgrade, I can put them back. I have not done so — much to my kids’ disappointment — because Tesla want £300,” said Shapps, 52.

Sounds like ransomware. Criminal minds are probably working on how to hack in to do the same sort of thing.....pay us £300 and your windscreen wipers will work again......

I read certain extras are already fitted to their cars but you have to pay for them as extras and have them switched on by software upgrade, certain parts are ready to use when you buy the car but are time limited, the software is adjusted according to what you pay for

By rights all EVs could be like that, all extras fitted but only used as you buy the software upgrades

Tesla - Ghost in the machine - overnight software updates. - daveyjp

More seemingly clever people who don't know what 'research' means.

Auto updates have been a 'thing' with Tesla since day one and there will be a huge small print document which no one ever reads telling you what this means in reality.

Tesla - Ghost in the machine - overnight software updates. - sammy1

Quite worrying really, playing with the software without the customer knowing. I am just happy with my cars clock changing for the winter hour automatically.

BMW are putting certain extras on their cars which if you want them you have to PAY for the dealer to activate them.

Tesla - Ghost in the machine - overnight software updates. - movilogo

Consumers can buy 2 types of cars now

Those which cars have some software inside them

OR

a computer + 4 wheels attached to it

Tesla - Ghost in the machine - overnight software updates. - Terry W

I would not buy a Tesla. There is a real risk they will end up as a dominant exploitative player in the personal transport marketplace.

A little like all the others in US giants who appear superficially politically correct - but whose behaviours and market dominance we have come to regret and desperately need better regulation - Amazon, Google, Microsoft, Facebook, Twitter, etc etc

Tesla - Ghost in the machine - overnight software updates. - focussed

There seems to be a level of electronic interference beyond which it is unwise to go.

ABS, TPMS, ESP, is all good stuff + all the emissions electrotrickery which you cannot avoid, is about as far as I want to venture into the geek's world.

Tesla - Ghost in the machine - overnight software updates. - _

So, To add to the debate,

With over the air software updates for connected cars, IF you don't have it serviced when the car tells you that a service is due, Will it cancel the car/vehicle warranry?

Tesla - Ghost in the machine - overnight software updates. - Bolt

So, To add to the debate,

With over the air software updates for connected cars, IF you don't have it serviced when the car tells you that a service is due, Will it cancel the car/vehicle warranry?

Where EVs are concerned I doubt there will be any need for servicing, only a check up if the software picks up any problems, I think the days of servicing are now numbered... l

Tesla - Ghost in the machine - overnight software updates. - RT

So, To add to the debate,

With over the air software updates for connected cars, IF you don't have it serviced when the car tells you that a service is due, Will it cancel the car/vehicle warranry?

Where EVs are concerned I doubt there will be any need for servicing, only a check up if the software picks up any problems, I think the days of servicing are now numbered... l

Things like the tyres, brakes, suspension and body components still need attention.

The only things missing in an EV service are engine oil and filters.

Tesla - Ghost in the machine - overnight software updates. - Bolt

So, To add to the debate,

With over the air software updates for connected cars, IF you don't have it serviced when the car tells you that a service is due, Will it cancel the car/vehicle warranry?

Where EVs are concerned I doubt there will be any need for servicing, only a check up if the software picks up any problems, I think the days of servicing are now numbered... l

Things like the tyres, brakes, suspension and body components still need attention.

The only things missing in an EV service are engine oil and filters.

How often will brakes need servicing if the motor does most of the braking for you, tyres depend on driver and body will only need attention if its damaged, suspension should last longer than most people keep a car, so possibly second hand work.

Apart from that there isn`t a lot to do?

Tesla - Ghost in the machine - overnight software updates. - RT

So, To add to the debate,

With over the air software updates for connected cars, IF you don't have it serviced when the car tells you that a service is due, Will it cancel the car/vehicle warranry?

Where EVs are concerned I doubt there will be any need for servicing, only a check up if the software picks up any problems, I think the days of servicing are now numbered... l

Things like the tyres, brakes, suspension and body components still need attention.

The only things missing in an EV service are engine oil and filters.

How often will brakes need servicing if the motor does most of the braking for you, tyres depend on driver and body will only need attention if its damaged, suspension should last longer than most people keep a car, so possibly second hand work.

Apart from that there isn`t a lot to do?

Brakes need more attention if they're rarely used - there's more to a service than just an oil change.

Tesla - Ghost in the machine - overnight software updates. - _

So, To add to the debate,

With over the air software updates for connected cars, IF you don't have it serviced when the car tells you that a service is due, Will it cancel the car/vehicle warranry?

Where EVs are concerned I doubt there will be any need for servicing, only a check up if the software picks up any problems, I think the days of servicing are now numbered... l

Things like the tyres, brakes, suspension and body components still need attention.

The only things missing in an EV service are engine oil and filters.

OK, So the dealers won't be happy if they can't make money out of "ticking" a few boxes on a spreadsheet and charged a lot of money for it.

From this link charges can vary £400 ish for 3 years "servicing at MGZS ev dealers?

www.speakev.com/threads/mg-zs-ev-service-costs.143.../

And still theoretically manufacturers will send messages to your connected car to TELL you your service/checkup is due and you'll get a message on the display or touchscreen?

Edited by _ORB_ on 15/11/2020 at 13:03

Tesla - Ghost in the machine - overnight software updates. - elekie&a/c doctor
Recently read an article about a Renault Zoe that wouldn’t drive . Lots of diagnostic checks revealed nothing wrong with the car, with no reason for it not to work. Eventually transpired that the battery had been immobilised over the air due to non payment of the battery lease . There was no message on the driver info panel to indicate what had happened.
Tesla - Ghost in the machine - overnight software updates. - pd

Lots of cars have "features" disabled in software which if you tick the options box are enabled. Manufacturers were doing it 20 years ago with cruise control and trip computers.

First time I've heard of features being removed however!

I get the question mark over this but it's relevant to all cars, whether EV or not.

Tesla - Ghost in the machine - overnight software updates. - madf

Wait until the Government insist all EVs have to be authorised by RFL payment or they stop working..

As far as servicing is concerned, an EV is white goods needing to be serviced and tyres,lights and brakes checked.

Don't expect most drivers to do that - many rely on MOT tests to do that.

Tesla - Ghost in the machine - overnight software updates. - Andrew-T

There seems to be a level of electronic interference beyond which it is unwise to go.

Must be possible for geeks to re-enable all the kit fitted to the car ?

Tesla - Ghost in the machine - overnight software updates. - Miniman777

If I ever bought an EV, which given the dull styling externally and the Fisher Price futuristic design internally, is pretty unlikely, it would never be a Tesla.

I have a loathing for Elon Musk and his supercilious attitude, more so as he thinks the answer to mass transit is the crazy Hyperloop, rather than investing in electrifying railways along with assisted battery/hydrogen technology. That is the way forward for public transport, not 500mph in an enclosed tube which will be a blot the landscape. It's pure fantasy.

It's also wrong to have the ultimate control to enable/disable features at will, as what's to stop someone hacking a car and overriding the driver?

Technology has proved autonomous driving is far from being perfected too, so why the headlong rush to snap up technology very much unproven?

Me? I'll stick to my proven and reliable internal combustion engine with its 600+mile range on a full tank probably until I pop my clogs. Stuff the emissions!

Tesla - Ghost in the machine - overnight software updates. - Ethan Edwards

I think its a great idea. Buy a used Tesla and there will no doubt arise a Third Party code hack individuals who armed only with laptop who'll turn on all the features permanently for a few quid. Much like those "mileage corrections " people do now.

Tesla - Ghost in the machine - overnight software updates. - Bolt

electrek.co/2020/08/27/tesla-hack-control-over-ent.../

I`ve just read this so it is safe and interesting...

Tesla - Ghost in the machine - overnight software updates. - focussed

And the farmers are at it too!

www.vice.com/en/article/xykkkd/why-american-farmer...e

All very much pointing to new laws being needed to stop this restriction of personal liberty.

Edited by focussed on 15/11/2020 at 21:54

Tesla - Ghost in the machine - overnight software updates. - RT

And the farmers are at it too!

www.vice.com/en/article/xykkkd/why-american-farmer...e

All very much pointing to new laws being needed to stop this restriction of personal liberty.

It's the beneficial aspect of Soviet hacking - I use Russian-originated software to update my VW's built-in satnav to avoid paying a dealer £200 to do the same thing.

Tesla - Ghost in the machine - overnight software updates. - Bolt

And the farmers are at it too!

www.vice.com/en/article/xykkkd/why-american-farmer...e

All very much pointing to new laws being needed to stop this restriction of personal liberty.

There is a group trying to stop these restrictions, as certain firms are now losing money because its been made impossible to repair these machines, where a few years ago they could do it

One mobile firm has now installed a security chip that prevents even a swap of components between phones so no other firm can repair the phones -only the OEM -

if this happens on cars you will only be able to take it to the makers garage to fix as all parts will be ECU fixed, by etags

Tesla - Ghost in the machine - overnight software updates. - Andrew-T

I have a loathing for Elon Musk and his supercilious attitude, more so as he thinks the answer to mass transit is the crazy Hyperloop, rather than investing in electrifying railways along with assisted battery/hydrogen technology. That is the way forward for public transport, not 500mph in an enclosed tube which will be a blot the landscape. It's pure fantasy.

Maybe he thinks he can do better than Brunel, who messed about with tubes in around 1840 with very limited success. Forgetting the problems with leaks, there can be no junctions so the container has to shuttle back and forth, like those centralised cash systems in large 1960 stores.

Tesla - Ghost in the machine - overnight software updates. - expat

“When I first got the car, I noticed it had heated rear seats, but after three months they disappeared. Now, if I want to pay for an upgrade, I can put them back. I have not done so — much to my kids’ disappointment — because Tesla want £300,” said Shapps, 52.

Sounds like ransomware. Criminal minds are probably working on how to hack in to do the same sort of thing.....pay us £300 and your windscreen wipers will work again......

I read certain extras are already fitted to their cars but you have to pay for them as extras and have them switched on by software upgrade, certain parts are ready to use when you buy the car but are time limited, the software is adjusted according to what you pay for

By rights all EVs could be like that, all extras fitted but only used as you buy the software upgrades

I did read somewhere that when a Tesla is sold secondhand all the upgrades that the first owner paid for are disabled and the new owner has to pay for them again in order to have them re enabled.

Tesla - Ghost in the machine - overnight software updates. - Brit_in_Germany

According to this article:

https://www.theregister.com/2020/11/17/tesla_nand_memory/

there is a problem with the memory chips "wearing out" causing car malfunctions.

Tesla - Ghost in the machine - overnight software updates. - expat

According to this article:

https://www.theregister.com/2020/11/17/tesla_nand_memory/

there is a problem with the memory chips "wearing out" causing car malfunctions.

If Tesla's touch screens have memory chips which wear out then perhaps other manufacturers may have similar problems. If wing mirrors cost 600 pounds to replace I hate to think of the cost of a replacement tough screen.

Tesla - Ghost in the machine - overnight software updates. - Bolt

According to this article:

https://www.theregister.com/2020/11/17/tesla_nand_memory/

there is a problem with the memory chips "wearing out" causing car malfunctions.

If Tesla's touch screens have memory chips which wear out then perhaps other manufacturers may have similar problems. If wing mirrors cost 600 pounds to replace I hate to think of the cost of a replacement tough screen.

The chips are meant to wear out, its just the rate of wear that is the problem, as a cell is destroyed the controller takes this into account and allocates a new cell instead.

there are loads of extra replacement cells but problem could be controller not seeing some new ones and calling them bad, though not proven yet just theory, result is the same

I think they are going over to Intel designed chips as they are more reliable? problem is they are soldered to mainboard

Edited by bolt on 19/11/2020 at 09:57

Tesla - Ghost in the machine - overnight software updates. - mss1tw

Incredible way of adding needless complexity to a machine that is at its heart, simplicity itself.

Tesla - Ghost in the machine - overnight software updates. - edlithgow

Incredible way of adding needless complexity to a machine that is at its heart, simplicity itself.

I think I posted a while ago that it would be necessary for manufacturers to enhance the failure rate of electric vehicles, which were otherwise likely to have commercially unacceptable reliability.

Et voila!

Say what you like about Elon Musk. He is once again ahead of the not-very-flattened curve.

tw.forumosa.com/t/coronavirus-crisis-open-thread-m...7

Tesla - Ghost in the machine - overnight software updates. - Bolt

I think I posted a while ago that it would be necessary for manufacturers to enhance the failure rate of electric vehicles, which were otherwise likely to have commercially unacceptable reliability.

They cannot predict the failure rate of microchips, so would have to look at other ways of doing it, but electronics by way of computers should have a lifetime of use without problems

The big but, is, will they or can they? its anyone's guess

Tesla - Ghost in the machine - overnight software updates. - edlithgow

I think I posted a while ago that it would be necessary for manufacturers to enhance the failure rate of electric vehicles, which were otherwise likely to have commercially unacceptable reliability.

They cannot predict the failure rate of microchips, so would have to look at other ways of doing it, but electronics by way of computers should have a lifetime of use without problems

The big but, is, will they or can they? its anyone's guess

Well, they could just go old-school and make them really badly. Think Lucas only more integrated/less repairable.

We had the technology and the Chinese could probably acquire it.

Tesla - Ghost in the machine - overnight software updates. - Bolt

Well, they could just go old-school and make them really badly. Think Lucas only more integrated/less repairable.

Elon Musk is not likely to go that route, he wants reliable long lasting cars, so he says, the fact certain components wear out or go wrong is not his fault.

his problem is finding reliable components, though have to say Intel are slowing down Tech wise, but I gather Tesla are now using Samsung chips which are possibly the best, but only time will tell?

We had the technology and the Chinese could probably acquire it.

Why would they go backwards?

Tesla - Ghost in the machine - overnight software updates. - alan1302

Elon Musk is not likely to go that route, he wants reliable long lasting cars, so he says, the fact certain components wear out or go wrong is not his fault.

his problem is finding reliable components, though have to say Intel are slowing down Tech wise, but I gather Tesla are now using Samsung chips which are possibly the best, but only time will tell?

It might not be Elon Musks fault as he does not run the company day to day but it is someone's fault at Tesla.

Tesla - Ghost in the machine - overnight software updates. - edlithgow

I think I posted a while ago that it would be necessary for manufacturers to enhance the failure rate of electric vehicles, which were otherwise likely to have commercially unacceptable reliability.

They cannot predict the failure rate of microchips, so would have to look at other ways of doing it, but electronics by way of computers should have a lifetime of use without problems

My BIG, BIG Y2K overtime (which I negotiated on behalf of my team, p***ing off management, who had something derisory in mind, then never got around to claiming, DUH!) suggest there are options available.

Tesla - Ghost in the machine - overnight software updates. - Bolt

I think I posted a while ago that it would be necessary for manufacturers to enhance the failure rate of electric vehicles, which were otherwise likely to have commercially unacceptable reliability.

They cannot predict the failure rate of microchips, so would have to look at other ways of doing it, but electronics by way of computers should have a lifetime of use without problems

My BIG, BIG Y2K overtime (which I negotiated on behalf of my team, p***ing off management, who had something derisory in mind, then never got around to claiming, DUH!) suggest there are options available.

The millennium bug that wasn`t, but made some a lot of money trying to fix, remember it well..

I read Tesla Samsung and Panasonic are looking into a new makeup of battery using better materials, apparently the batteries should last double the mileage of the old ones...

Edited by bolt on 22/11/2020 at 10:41

Tesla - Ghost in the machine - overnight software updates. - Andrew-T

<< The millennium bug that wasn`t, but made some a lot of money trying to fix >>

There were problems, but only for systems written in 1970s code which assumed that all years began with 19.. Better to have prepared for it rather than waiting to see what happened. There may be a message for Brexiteers there somewhere :-)

Tesla - Ghost in the machine - overnight software updates. - Bolt

<< The millennium bug that wasn`t, but made some a lot of money trying to fix >>

There were problems, but only for systems written in 1970s code which assumed that all years began with 19.. Better to have prepared for it rather than waiting to see what happened. There may be a message for Brexiteers there somewhere :-)

thanks for correction, I remember it now, a mate who worked between HP and BT as a programmer worked a lot of extra hours sorting out various programs to compensate, in those days they used their own programmers for there own machines (not sure if they do now)

Talking of software, I read somewhere Mercedes top of the range cars will have to go to Microsoft to fix any problems as they worked with Mercs on the 98 computers and software for the car/s, Merc engineers wont be able to repair them due to complexity?

looks like the future of cars now.....

Tesla - Ghost in the machine - overnight software updates. - edlithgow

We had one or two issues with 3Com stuff that was supposed to be compliant but wasn't.

If we hadn't upgraded everything to be compliant, we''d probably have had more, so I wouldn't say it was a fiction.

In context, it suggests firmware can be time-aware, so if you wanted to build in predictable failure I'm pretty sure you could do it.

Tesla - Ghost in the machine - overnight software updates. - Tunder

The millennium bug that wasn`t, but made some a lot of money trying to fix, remember it well..

I worked for a major bank in 1997 and many of our core systems only stored dates as 2 digits.

In just one example, the standing order system would have collapsed on day one of 2000.

We tested a rollover to 01/01/2000 and transactions were not processed. The system would not process backdated payment instructions so if you set up a standing order on 01/01/1999 to pay £100 a month to someone, come 01/01/2000 the payment wouldn't be made because the system thought the start date had not been reached.

There were thousands of lines of code that needed changing. Then testing to make sure they worked. There were also some exotic little used languages. Most systems were written in COBOL, some were in ALGOL, a really old one was in FORTRAN. Getting programmers with the requisite skills was difficult. There was a shortage because lots of organisations were having the same issues.

Databases also had to be updated as well.

Tesla - Ghost in the machine - overnight software updates. - alan1302

The millennium bug that wasn`t, but made some a lot of money trying to fix, remember it well..

Or was it because people knew about and did something about it?

Tesla - Ghost in the machine - overnight software updates. - RT

The millennium bug that wasn`t, but made some a lot of money trying to fix, remember it well..

Or was it because people knew about and did something about it?

Some of us were writing programs that coped with 4 digit year dates back in the 1980s - the Millenium didn't creep up and surprise us!

Tesla - Ghost in the machine - overnight software updates. - Sparrow

I was working for a large telecoms company in the late 1990s and the issue was huge. Mostly things were ok and coped, but our major customers wanted it all to be tested and verified as working before the date changed. It was all the testing, or code verification, that took a huge amount of effort. So, thankfully, come the day there were no issues, and, at least in the telecoms industry, it was all sorted ahead of time.

As for Tesla's memory chips, I am not able to comment. I certainly would not like feature deivery or removal overnight. It's bad enough on my old 3 series BMW. Chang s happen when it goes into the dealer, for example the tyre pressure monitor used to have a yellow and a red warning with appropriate sounds and indication. One day some twerp must have thought one warning, the severe one, was all that was needed. So now the first sign if lowering tyre pressure, even by a small amount, is a LOUD bong sufficient to cause my passengers to leap out of their seats. Now if that is a good idea then BMW are deluded.

Tesla - Ghost in the machine - overnight software updates. - Tunder

I am sure there were other posts here this morning - have they been deleted and why? They weren't offensive?

Tesla - Ghost in the machine - overnight software updates. - Avant

I don't think so: I was working this morning and I haven't looked at the forum until now. I would delete posts only if they were offensive or spam.