CVT’s aren’t slow, they send the engine soaring straight to peak torque then it stays there while the car builds speed. It’s a very efficient system if done well with no real economy or performance sacrifice. But it’s quite unrefined if you drive with a lead foot, but then who would buy an automatic Jazz or Toyota if that’s the way you drive? It suits most people who want a self shifter perfectly well.
In the past they were jerky things at low speed and offered no creep to facilitate easy parking. We had loads of cars in our body shop with damage caused by (usually elderly) drivers who’d lurched their CVT equipped Fiat or Ford into another motor. Rover’s K series Metro was the first CVT that drove properly. It was quicker off the mark than the manual equivalent, surprising many a so called hot hatch.
Edited by SLO76 on 21/03/2018 at 14:55
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Foot to the floor, but that was the point. I'm not suggesting that it should be driven like that all the time, and i certainly don't. But as i have continually said whenever the subject crops up, they really aren't that slow, and the performance is there for the taking. I live in a part of the country where the vast majority of roads are single carriageway. So you have to overtake to make progress, and for that you need to know your car can manage to do so safely. It did not take that long for the jazz to answer, yes!.
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I hope you enjoy it and look forward to your comments.
I never watch youtube videos, too risky IMHO
But for what its worth your method of measuring performance is pointless. Needs to be done with an automated certified timing system both ways within a short time to ensure any wind, weather, gradient etc effects are averaged out.
Until you do that I will continue to believe the magazine figures I have quoted and the quotes that say the Jazz CVT is not that great.
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Disagree - As a big Honda fan I've had various examples of the Jazz as courtesy cars when having our other Honda's serviced and thought the CVT versions were an absolute hoot, especially when you can play tunes on the gearbox with the buttons on the wheel.
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Have no particular axe to grind here. Nothing to prove and no specific interest to declare - but have owned a Jazz CVT, so I suppose that confers a degree of entitlement to a view ... and it does strike me that (a) there's a hint of niggle associated with the discourse and (b) that the OP posted the clip to offer a general illustration of the way the vehicle operates in the hands of the typical 'Man On The Clapham Omnibus', rather than an authorised, certified, analytical assessment of the car's performance under laboratory conditions.
To that end I think the clip serves a purpose and I'd suggest it adds an element of interest and information to those considering one and rather wonder if it's no surprise that skidpan takes a contrary view coz he's hardly likely to roll over and admit he might be wrong (and surely whether he is actually right or wrong is more a matter of opinion rather a question of fact). Clearly if the paths of he and the OP were to cross in a pub there could well, understandably, be a respectful distance maintained between the two :-)
Finally I have to concede that I've been using Youtube for years and years and regard it as an amazingly useful, entertaining and informative resource to which I return time after time if I want to check on absolutely anything under the sun or listen to music of any conceivable genre. ... and am not aware that, to date, I've been infected or otherwise compromised so I hardly regard it as being a risky undertaking ... but, hey, what do I know?
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I hope you enjoy it and look forward to your comments.
I never watch youtube videos, too risky IMHO
But for what its worth your method of measuring performance is pointless. Needs to be done with an automated certified timing system both ways within a short time to ensure any wind, weather, gradient etc effects are averaged out.
Until you do that I will continue to believe the magazine figures I have quoted and the quotes that say the Jazz CVT is not that great.
Of course you will!, because the alternative would be unthinkable for such a highly opinionated individual, and died in the wool advocate of the TSI superiority (and the 'rubbishness' of the CVT). Heaven forbid the possibility that you may actually be wrong?
For what it's worth, it was a flat road, damp surface, raining lightly, around 5 degrees C, with a 10mph side wind. The first time i did it, when my 15 year old 60(ish)kg son was sitting in the passenger seat recording the time (of 10 seconds), was on the same stretch of road, but in the other direction, it was sunny, warmer, maybe about 10 and with no wind (i remember as i went out for a cycle shortly after).
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As so often, this one is a matter of horses for courses, and no-one is right or wrong. I personally wouldn't want to have to approach 6000 rpm to get the best out of a car, both on account of noise and potential wear and tear on the engine.
But then most Honda engines are designed to give of their best at high revs, and if that suits you, you won't mind the accompanying frenetic noise.
Engines like the VAG TFSI suit my style better, and although I'm not going to test it in the same way as BBD did, I think SWMBO's A1, with only 60 cc more than the Jazz, could achieve a similar time without going over 4000 rpm.
It's a strange anomaly that that particular quality of Honda engines, as appreciated by BBD (to whom thanks for taking the trouble to make the video), is lost on the great majority of Jazz drivers who are - assuming that BBD is of an average age to have a 15-y-o son - twice his age.
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The Honda jazz remains one of the best quality vehicles on sale in the IK.
It’s such a shame the new/current Jazz only comes with the 1.5 turbo engine in sports trim.
If this engine was available in a different trim it would be top of my list.
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“It’s such a shame the new/current Jazz only comes with the 1.5 turbo engine in sports trim.”
It doesn’t come with it at all but with a sub 9s 0-60 time the 128bhp normally asperated version is strong enough for any potential Jazz owner.
Edited by SLO76 on 22/03/2018 at 07:52
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The Honda jazz remains one of the best quality vehicles on sale in the IK.
It’s such a shame the new/current Jazz only comes with the 1.5 turbo engine in sports trim.
If this engine was available in a different trim it would be top of my list.
The 1.5 in the Jazz (and the HRV) is not a turbo. If it had been we would have seriously considered the HRV as a Note replacement but an engine with not a huge amount of torque at highish revs (114 lbs @ 4600) does not interest us.The Fabia we ordered has 148 lbs between 2000 and 3500 rpm. After over 20 years of turbo petrols and diesels no real interest in a peaky engine again.
While we were in the showroom we looked at the Jazz since it was probably the most logical direct replacement for the Note. But the sport trim was not our cup of tea at all. It missed out on some kit that we find very desirable these days such as climate control and height adjustable passenger seat which are fitted to the lesser Jazz models. I don't know if the sport has stiffened/lowered suspension, did not enquire.
Not really interested in persuing but we asked about a test drive. The HRV and Jazz Sport demonstrators were both CVT's so no point at all since we knew 100% we would not be buying one of those. They showed no interest in providing a manual version of either. A bit like some dealers only selling diesels.
It doesn’t come with it at all but with a sub 9s 0-60 time the 128bhp normally asperated version is strong enough for any potential Jazz owner.
The reviews I have read so far have been less than complementary.
Edited by skidpan on 22/03/2018 at 09:36
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To be honest the Jazz doesn't need a turbo on its 1.5 petrol engine - using the 1.0T would've been far more useful as it has more than sufficient power and torque for the Civic, let alone the much smaller Jazz..
HJ doesn't seem to agree with skidpan in his review the review of the new Jazz 1.5 Sport 130, however I am yet to be convinced as to the longer term comfort levels (ride quality) on the lower profile tyres (in my view, many are fine for the first year or so, then really firm up afterwards, not just because of the tyres wearing), as well as the low gearing generally that means it may not be a quiet 'cruiser', even in 6th gear.
The 8.5sec to 60 performance for the 1.5 N/A (130) isn't needed for this sort of car, and of course can only be achieved by thrashing it - probably fine for the bullet-proof VTEC engine, but not exactly needed either. Given the Jazz's ownership demographic, I would've thought that the 1.0T (de-rated a bit from the Civic's to give better mpg with a 0-60 of about 9.5-10 sec) would've suited it far better to give decent performance without having to thrash the nuts of it, and lower in-cabin noise levels and a more pleasant drive. The same could easily go for the HR-V as well.
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“The reviews I have read so far have been less than complementary.”
Yes, I’ve read them too, it hasn’t been that well received as a drivers car same as previous generations of Jazz but while I agree that Honda need to put more effort in here this is partly a negative of the motoring press than anything else. They base a cars desirability a little too much on how it handles round a track or outright performance rather than the whole picture.
The 1.0 Ecoboost Fiesta is always mentioned as the superior car and I agree to drive it certainly is but give it 7 years and the Fiesta will likely be baked bean cans thanks to engine failure or the gearbox eating itself in the case of a Powershift equipped example.
They never factor in reliability to their conclusions and the current model Jazz is a highly practical, economical and quite comfortable little car that’ll run for two decades with care. It’s much improved over the Mk II to drive but Honda really should fit their new 1.0 Turbo and not just in Sport spec cars to appeal to either younger drivers or people downsizing from larger cars as they age. The 1.3 petrol is very weak, requiring screaming high revs for overtaking. I’ve yet to have a shot of the 1.5 so can’t judge it beyond the figures on paper.
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“I would've thought that the 1.0T (de-rated a bit from the Civic's to give better mpg with a 0-60 of about 9.5-10 sec) would've suited it far better to give decent performance without having to thrash the nuts of it, and lower in-cabin noise levels and a more pleasant drive. The same could easily go for the HR-V as well.
Honda really should fit their new 1.0 Turbo and not just in Sport spec cars to appeal to either younger drivers or people downsizing from larger cars as they age. The 1.3 petrol is very weak, requiring screaming high revs for overtaking. I’ve yet to have a shot of the 1.5 so can’t judge it beyond the figures on paper.
If Honda had fitted the 1.0T in the Jazz we would have given serious consideration (if the deal and drive were OK). It would not need the 128 bhp as fitted to the Civic, 110 like the Fabia etc get with a good dollop of torque would be more than adequate.
As for the HRV I think it would benefit from having both the 1.0T and 1.5T as options. Still not sure about a 1.0T in cars this size (Skoda, VW, Audi, Seat use their 1.0 T in their competitors) but they also offer the 1,5 TSi to give buyers a choice. Could this be one of the reasons that despite their recent problems VAG's policy to offer a good range of petrol (and diesel) engines in each model range still maintain good sales.
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If Honda had fitted the 1.0T in the Jazz we would have given serious consideration (if the deal and drive were OK). It would not need the 128 bhp as fitted to the Civic, 110 like the Fabia etc get with a good dollop of torque would be more than adequate.
As for the HRV I think it would benefit from having both the 1.0T and 1.5T as options. Still not sure about a 1.0T in cars this size (Skoda, VW, Audi, Seat use their 1.0 T in their competitors) but they also offer the 1,5 TSi to give buyers a choice. Could this be one of the reasons that despite their recent problems VAG's policy to offer a good range of petrol (and diesel) engines in each model range still maintain good sales.
I suspect the 'image' of buying a VW/Audi (and to a lesser extent a VAG, being 'German-derived') may still play a large part in keeping sales high, but I agree that usability of the TSi engines is a BIG factor, especially in the UK where mid-range grunt for overtaking on fast-moving single-lane carriageways as well as on motorways makes a big difference, as well as actual mpg.
Since the introduction of small capacity turbocharged petrol engines onto the UK market in the early 2000s, their popularity has steadily increased as a result of the above, and that of normally-aspirated engines reduced.
Whilst N/A engines can and have been further tweaked to give better performance, mpg and lower emissions, this has often come at the expense of usefulness in the mid revs range - I noticed this particularly with the Mazda3 over the evolution of their 1.6 petrol engine (now 1.5) since the early 2000s (when fitted to my mk1) onwards, whereby it went from being a car with acceptable pace to rather slow (the last mk2 having a 0-60 time over a second slower than mine) and had to be thrashed to get any sort of decent performance out of it. I was surprised at how the latest 3 with its standard 2ltr N/A petrol engine was only a bit more peppy than my (now) 12yo 1.6 - it was better in the smaller CX-3, but agree that for anything other than tootling around, you needed a lot of gas to get it going.
It shows in the currently relatively poor sales figures from Mazda compared to rivals and what they were achieving in the mid 2000s, not helped by (in my opinion) poor marketing - pushing big for diesel even when its not needed, possibly to achieve EU corporate CO2 levels and not having cars with really decent mid-range performance. This is obviously shown by their HUGE sales (similarly for Honda and Toyota) in Australia, where the Mazda3, Corolla (Auris) and Civic sell far, far more units than in the UK, with the Mazda3 selling more (I think) there than ALL Mazdas in the UK, mostly because they (can?) offer larger capacity petrol engines with no CO2 fines, e.g. the Mazda3 with a 2.5 petrol (185hp), etc etc.
I think Honda have suffered similar 'problems', and have cut off much of their market by, up until now, keeping in the normally-aspirated league and relying on high-revving VTec power. Hopefully both are now realising that more and more people want an 'effortless driving experience' without paying the penalty in mpg, and are considering going down the road of forced induction, even on their 'OAP/mum & dad' models such as the Jazz. As usual, Mazda will be doing something different, using their HCCI with (apparently) a supercharger (not sure if across the board or just on the higher powered models), and time will tell if its can match (or even better) the TSi type engines.
The main downside with the TSi type engines (if I recall correctly), more so than just any GDI engine, is that some of the engine oil gets deliberatiely mixed with the fuel during the combustion process, which does cause some issues (I can't remember what exactly, but I do remember there were some) in addition to obviously using more oil than non-GDI N/A petrol-engined cars (mine uses almost no oil). I suspect that the extra oil use balances out, to an extent, the better mpg they get. Given VAG stole a march on all the other manufacturers, I would bet such 'issues' are becoming of lesser importance given the number of years of R&D involved in their development. Just a shame that other engineering issues still remain that (at least for me) put me off, especially with the autos.
I think if Honda ramp up their use of their turbo-petrols and they prove as operationally effective as the VAG TSi units, but with the added reliability overall, then all they 'need to do' is get the styling and road manners/comfort right and they'll be onto a big winner.
Similarly if Mazda can get their HCCI tech right and it behaves like a TSi but with even better mpg/emissions and its reliable (not a given, as demonstrated by their diesels, although they may be bought-in and not developed in-house). The downside for them will be that expertise outside of Mazda dealerships may be lacking, which could put punters off buying them after the warranty is up if they think that dealership servicing is too expensive if its the only viable option.
Not sure which firm will have the easier time to make a decent impression on the market in the UK, which is still heavily tilted towards 'perceived image and quality'. Ironically, if Mazda were bought by Honda, and used the styling and driving dynamics team of the former, merging the engine design teams (using the Honda-derived diesels and taking the best of the petrols), then wouldn't that be good.
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Without doubt many UK journalists overrate the importance of handling round a track, or enthusiastic on road driving. There are online resources telling us which cars last ten or more years, it’s not hard to guess which hang around, and it does not correlate directly to reliability since things such as electrics can fail but are often easily mended.
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The main downside with the TSi type engines (if I recall correctly), more so than just any GDI engine, is that some of the engine oil gets deliberatiely mixed with the fuel during the combustion process, which does cause some issues
I think you are mixing up TSi's and regens on diesels where excess diesel during a regen gets into the sump.. If oil was mixed with the fuel it woiuld lead to catalyst issues due to contamination plus the HC's would be well above allowed levels.
Had a TSI on the drive for 5 years now, never added a spot of oil and never seen the oil level rise. Never read about such issues on VAG forums although its fair to say that some of the early twin charged TSi's did have a oil drinking habit but that was, I believe, due to other issues and not a designed in "they all do that sir" feature.
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Indeed - even on my previous gen tsi(2014 - last of the EA111's) I've never needed to top up oil between the 10k services ( I don't believe in long life servicing!).
I think there are some oil jets to help lubricate pistons (think earlier twin charger versions had an issue with these) but I've never seen any issues yet. My 2014 1.4tsi now has 55k miles on it and is running well and economy is about the same as it was when I got the car (1 year 14k miles).
Edited by Big John on 26/03/2018 at 00:02
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Wasn't it the 1.8TSi a big user of oil? I definitely remember several articles saying at least one TSi engine, perhaps about 4-5 years ago, used A LOT and required top ups every 1-2k miles. I do recall the 'piston lubrication' (or something like that) use as well, and that its still is the case on the current crop of VAG TSi engines, but improvements have meant that later iterations of the engines don't use anywhere near as much as previously, and thus the extra cost of top-ups is minimal if anything for the average user.
Again, as Big John says, as long as you don't follow any 'long-life servicing' but do so once a year as a minimum and with quality oils and filters, etc, then problems should be minimised as long as the cars aren't thrashed or are pulling heavy loads a lot and left for a reasonable time to idle to reduce the turbo temperature when required.
Perhaps the 1.8, presumably on the way out, being replaced by just using the 1.5 EVO and 2.0 (180) etc was the worst affected. Not sure about the 1.4 twin charger - I only recall it having 'muliple reliability issues'.
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I thought the oil usage of earlier TSI engines was resolved when they introduced a mixture of indirect and direct injection?
I had a 2009 Audi A5 with the 2.0TSI for just over 2 years (from used- purchased at two years old) and by the end of my time with it, it drank 1 litre of oil every 1000 miles, which was getting quite pricy! It had done 44k miles when I sold it. I didn't fancy carrying on with that level of oil consumption and it put me off the TSI engines to be honest, which is a shame, because it was a nice thing to drive and considering its power output, and being a Quattro, always gave 35mpg.
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