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I suspect the diesels would win a 3 year 30,000 shootout, although the fact diesel costs so much these days would eat into the mpg advantage a little, as would the (usually) increased purchase cost of the oil-burning car. I'm talking about the life of the car. It'll be interesting in 10 or 15 years time how many of today's diesels will still be on the road, the irony is the actual engines will probably be fine all the gubbins required to increase refinement and reduce soot emissions will be what renders them non-viable for repair economically.
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Exactly the reason that I won't buy a diesel, not now, unless I know who has been driving it from day one, because if its been pussyfooted along all its life, its probably going to be prone to blocked EGR valves, I don't know what fuel would have been used, and I think this is crucial in keeping the modern common rail engine in good condition, it may have been thrashed and then turned off, seriously reducing turbo life, although admittedly this could happen with a petrol engine. And DPF filters are just adding complication for the sake of smoke reduction and emissions, and they are going wrong.
Yes, modern diesels are powerful and fairly smokeless, and no-one would want to go back to the traditional mechanical diesels, but at least when you bought one of those, they did what they said they would do, give good economy, reliability and massive mileage potential.
As you say, people who are buying at the older and higher mileage end of the spectrum are going to be saddled with something that will cost £££s to put right if it does go wrong, and completely cancel out the reason that you buy a diesel in the first place.
I know some people have done a huge mileage in their modern diesels with no problems, but I wouldn't like to take the risk of buying an old 'modern' diesel without a cast iron warranty.
There is a reason for this ranting. I bought an Audi 80 TDi which was OK, but never stopped smoking. No one I went to could sort it out, I wasn't going to go to the main dealers and be made bankrupt, so I sold it and bought a petrol instead. Much happier.
I still think the basic engines are good solid units. Its the increasingly complex ancillaries that let them down.
Calling all modern diesel owners!
Anyone out there who has covered massive mileage with their modern diesels (150000 miles+), with no expensive problems, I'd like you to prove me wrong. Set my mind at rest!
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Anyone out there who has covered massive mileage with their modern diesels (150000 miles+) with no expensive problems I'd like you to prove me wrong. Set my mind at rest!
My 'runabout' car is a Fiat Marea Weekend - 2002, with the 1.9 JTD engine. Bought for next to nothing with 200,000km on the clock and now has > 270,000km on the clock.
Total repairs so far:
EGR valve at 240,000km. Total repair bill including cleaning all the soot out: 70 euros (Spain)
Admittedly this car doesn't have a DPF, but it is common rail.
Part of the problem is that the UK driver pays silly money for common / simple repairs like an EGR valve - I've read some FIAT owners paying as much as £300 to have it replaced. Here in Spain we have so many diesel cars, we have lots of independent diesel specialists that only diagnose and fix diesel cars.
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Well, maybe so but my Feb 2002 Mondeo diesel estate has now got 170k on it and has never, ever, needed a repair on anything. Original clutch, DMF, battery, exhaust etc. Never been near a Ford dealer either. Local indy services it for me and apart from consumables such as tyres, brakes and a couple of bulbs it has never needed any attention. Nor did the one before it either come to that or indeed the one before that.
Just lucky I suppose, or maybe we just hear more about the faulty ones because as you rightly point out they are expensive to fix when they do go wrong. This one and its two forebears owe me nothing.
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My last several cars have been diesels, my current is a diesel Altea but I really really really struggle to get better than 40mpg on it.
I will seriously consider petrol next time wheras in the past I have automatically ignored it.
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It's all that looning around Tescos car park in the snow Bobby. Plays havoc with the mpg. More than possibly worth it though.
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Am sure Tesco was the works van, the car was in Lidls car park......
Seriously, I actually probably reflect the OPs trend on diesel - my first was a Citroen ZX diesel, then a turbo diesel, Saxo diesel and Scenic turbo diesel. All old style, gave up to 67mpg (Saxo) and no hassles. My Fabia vrs could be driven hard and still give very high 40s.
Then I fell for the sales pitch of the new dcis and had 2 Scenics, both of which struggled to get above 45mpg, and now my current Seat struggles to get above 40mpg. I have got it for this fill at 41.6mpg but that is some amount of mimsing to get it there!
Most petrols in this size will do mid 30s easily. I have friends who have had issues with Peugeot 806, Citroen Picasso and a Scenic, all diesels, that they have eventually had to get rid as no one, inc main dealer could get to the bottom of what was wrong. That gives much food for thought though there may be a similar amount of petrol owners with the same issues?
I do like the diesel drive, the pull, the torque but its so long since I drove a petrol (other than on a Megane test drive) that I have forgotten what they are like as a day to day runner.
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I think you have been very lucky. My Mondeo petrol has been VERY expensive to run this last year. No engine faults but lots of ther problems.
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Cant imagine getting another petrol as my daily driver - I'd miss the torque too much to go back to petrol - it'd feel like a wet lettuce in the gears if it was under 3 litres.
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Well - as an even smugger edit to the above....I've just taken a phone call from our local garage to inform me that the above mentioned Mondeo has just passed its MOT again with no advisories. Anyone want an indestructible though a little bit lived in Ghia X diesel estate with a 13 month ticket ? It'll not be cheap mind !
;-)
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Nice one Humph, I've got no doubt some cars will cover intergalactic miles, but your car is still not that old. I presume on that year it'll be the first of the common rail jobbies?
I also assume most of your mileage is long distance given the 170K? We know that a warmed up car steaming down a motorway suffers very little wear, also the sheer amount of fuel you burn (and brimming of the fuel tank) will keep moisture in the fuel system to a minimum - this is a real killer for modern high pressure diesel pumps. Most everyday drivers will not drive like this and is why modern diesels will suffer.
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I'll be driving my first diesel from monday when I pick the Audi up. (Assuming it doesn't snow again!). I chose it due to residuals and running costs (mpg and tax). I got free servicing so I've got no real expense for four years. I've never had real problems with any car I've ever owned. I may have been lucky, but I think a lot of it comes down to how you treat a car. (I've probably just jinxed myself :) )
The BMW 530ds at work get hammered. There's no leaving turbos to cool, they get left on the run lock for hours (although they do leave a nice smoke screen afterwards, presumably as the DPF clears itself) and we've yet to have any issues.
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Allow me to make a small foray into sexist pedantry. The saying is: 'You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear'.
In a pig's ear you can't! My own car has a 2 litre petrol engine. It's a tolerable unit, fairly pleasant at most cruising speeds, a bit raucous when stretched, which it sometimes has to be to heave the car about. But it is comprehensively outclassed for silence, refinement and torque by the 1600 diesel in the Citroen C4 I drove briefly a couple of years ago.
So there.
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Diesel seems like such a gamble.
From anecdotes on here, early Mk3 mondeos with the TDCi 130 engine seem to routinely do around 50mpg. The comparable petrol only does 30mpg?
That's a potential for decent savings, even if you're not racking up much more than 12k miles a year.
What if the pump goes? What if it needs a new injector + coding that entails. What if it needs a new DMF + clutch?
Such a gamble but the rewards are so tempting, if you were lucky, you'd get an absolute steal of a bargin.
If you were unlucky, it'd be uneconomical by almost double the car's value, to repair.
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The Mk3 petrol Mondeo's have the DMF too, so you can't really bring that into the equation, but seriously, I've just went in the past week form a 1.8 Mondeo to a 1.9TD 306, so far this week I've saved £30 on fuel alone, true the XUD is a rough old beast, but it does exactly what it says on the tin, why they had to go to the HDi engines is a mystery, surely they could have cleaned up the XUD's emissions? The old N/A 405's went on forever, I know a couple that had half a million miles on them and were still going strong. If they really wanted to kill emissions then what is wrong with a good old fashioned mechanical system, I've seen plenty of smoky TDCi's and PD engines.
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I had the non-turbo XU in a '97 306 and it positively *sipped* diesel. In fact, i think it just rinsed its mouth with diesel then put nearly it all back in the tank.
That kind of diesel isn't a gamble, it's completely bulletproof. It's a bit clattery, dirty, smelly and it ain't no in-line-6 silky smooth dual-vanos BMW super model.
It's the common rail ones that are the gamble :-( i wish it weren't so because they've much wider powerbands and much much quieter than the old style diesel.
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what is wrong with a good old fashioned mechanical system
Power, you just can't get the sort of power outputs you can get now with modern electronics, variable vane turbos, high pressure injection e.t.c
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I would buy a new Diesel without a second thought, because I know how it would be run in and driven (hard, basically).
I would however never buy a second hand CR diesel. I have no idea how its been driven or fueled.
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I would however never buy a second hand CR diesel. I have no idea how its been driven or fueled.
I wish that wasn't the case, but from what i read this seems the sensible approach.
Ah well, solved a quandry i was having over choosing the diesel or petrol version for my next car (which would be ~5 years old with at least 50k miles on the clock).
Edited by CraigP on 15/01/2010 at 19:31
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I would also suggest it's largely to do with the Euro 3,4,5 & 6 regs on emissions. The only ways manufacturers can meet the ever tightening requirements are increased injection pressures and more control over the combustion process itself. Complex electronic control is the only practical way. From what I've read on the net, Euro 5 is pushing technology towards the limits and meeting Euro 6 may not be cost-effective for certain applications. I do agree though with the general thread that over-complexity has become its Achilles heel. I've had several old style diesels and currently a Euro 3 Octavia 1.9 tdi might well be my last, as I tend to buy at 2 years old and keep until about 8 or 9, so I fall into that group of owners who have to fork out for expensive repairs out of warranty!
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I agree, Bedhead, the XUD was a fantastic engine. In the 90's I had three of them, they were economical, reliable, very few electronics to worry about. OK, so they were noisy and a bit slow without the turbo, but as you say, they did what you asked.
The XUD was replaced by the DW range of engines. The DW8 engine is very simlar to it's predecessor but, with the addition of a catalytic converter, was able to pass newer emission standards. According to Wikipedia, the DW8 was phased out in 2007 as it was unable to comply with Euro 4.
Edited by mcguyver on 15/01/2010 at 20:09
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S'funny ... I worked for Hometune the mobile engine tuners, and their advertising blurb was " you can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear - but you'll be surprised what we can do for your car"
Back in the 90's I bought a little Citroen AX diesel 1.4 to take back to Tenerife and it was great car, I think the engine was all ally IIRC - the one before the 1.5 lump.
I wouldn't consider buying a diesel today - unless I was doing the miles, which I don't ... I'd have to research it thoroughly though, and would probably look toward a French engined car.
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Youve got to be knocking up the miles for a CR diesel to be worth the bother.
I dont think weve ever had a petrol car we couldnt fix, but have given up with a few diesels, as has our local diesel specialist and even the main agent from time to time.
Petrol injection systems are relatively low tech compared to latest diesels and are mature technology but latest diesels are cutting edge and still proving themselves, manufacturers are still learning. Some recent petrols are fairly high tech (like direct injection) but for most of them they are compartively straightforward.
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Like a lot of the posters above I was a big fan the the XUD range of engines - reliable and positively sipped fuel, the VAG equivalent, the Umwelt, was fantastic too, yes they were a bit rough and ready but that added to the character of the car, I remember running a Golf estate with that motor and touching 60mpg on a run. The fact that cars have got bigger and heavier hasn't helped mpg. I'd rather have a slightly noisier diesel car with a slightly lumpy idle and a less that perfect clutch take up if it meant the car was gong to be reliable with no astronomical repair bills down the road. This is why I stick to petrol cars as I do not buy new cars,only cheap supermini class cars make a good buy new. You can only lose 6 grand if that's all the car cost in the first place! Of course if you're spending someone else's money then it's a different story...
Edited by SteveLee on 15/01/2010 at 21:08
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My own car has a 2 litre petrol engine. It's a tolerable unit fairly pleasant at most cruising speeds a bit raucous when stretched which it sometimes has to be to heave the car about. But it is comprehensively outclassed for silence refinement and torque by the 1600 diesel in the Citroen C4 I drove briefly a couple of years ago. So there.
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That's my whole point, think of all the technology involved to make a compression ignition engine seem as refined (or more so) than a petrol. The engine is NOT more refined - it can't be by definition of it being a diesel, the car manufacturers have had to spend a fortune coming up with all sorts of complicated ways to keep the vibes and noise at bay. Put the noisiest engine you can find behind 10 foot of sound absorption material and you'll hardly hear it - it doesn't make it a quiet engine!
The same engine you describe is fitted to my brother's C5 - it's nowhere near as refined or quiet as my petrol C5. There's far more sound deadening material under his bonnet and it's completely gutless - but it is a small engine puling a large car so I can forgive it, he does get sensational fuel mileage out of it. I've driven a 2.2 sequential-twin-turbo and that felt nippy, possibly as quick as mine but I do have an auto and that was a manual.
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What can you do to try and ensure it stays healthy in your ownership?
Say for arguments sake you've paid your money on a common rail, 5 year old which has no obvious defects.
Is it worth going down to 5,000 mile oil + filter changes?
Should we replace the fuel filter every 2nd oil service 10,000 miles?
Any additives packages or just buy diesel from a brand name with additives already in?
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Good point CraigP, I do interim oil changes on all my cars and bikes anyway, the regular fuel filter change seems sensible. I guess if it ain't broke and you treat it well you're doing all you can to make your own good luck!
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You can't always know what's been done to it before.
I've had an atmo' Maestro (60 MPG) and a TDDI Focus (£1300 injector pump replaced).
The Maestro was dreadfully slow to warm up, even after the two new 'stats, but I got used to cruising at 50 MPH because I couldn't overtake.
The Focus had that lovely turbo diesel 'grunt' and was almost as economical as the Maestro, but the necessity for a new injector pump at 30K put me off diesels so far.
I reckon the popularity of modern diesels is down to the strangulation of petrol engines.
Diesels feel like petrol used to.
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I've had an atmo' Maestro (60 MPG)
Ah the Perkin's Prima, an extremely efficient engine due to the direct injection only usually use on commercial vehicles at the time. this is why it was such a noisy lump, shame you didn't have the turbo, took the edge off the noise and gave acceptable performance with practically no cost to fuel economy because you didn't have to drive with your foot mashed to the floor. 'twas pretty reliable too, most oil burning Montys and Maestros met their death being butchered by the Landie owners for the engine - nice combo a defender with a blown Prima.
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PS I believe the Prima is the only "foreign" engine Honda have ever fitted to one of their cars - unless anyone knows otherwise.
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PS I believe the Prima is the only "foreign" engine Honda have ever fitted to one of their cars - unless anyone knows otherwise.
The 1.7 litre diesel that Honda had in the last generation of Civics was an Isuzu and Honda have marketed Land Rover Discovery's in Japan. Yikes.
Back on topic, I have just read on another forum I frequent of a person that took samples of the derv that was in his tank when the pump failed. It looked like they had poured used engine oil into the tanks.
I would guess that all engine manufacturers do endurance test their engines, but only use decent fuel. Then engines get pit to market and run on fuel that have been contaminated. I would also guess that at some point fuel suppliers will tire of supplying duff fuel and paying to replace the damaged fuel systems and have to clean up their act, then the CR diesels will run just fine.
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a TDDI Focus (£1300 injector pump replaced)
A well known problem with them BT, I have a friend with a TDDI Focus whose cam belt snapped needing a new cylinder head. His own fault as he didn't replace it when he bought it, and he's a mechanic so fairly cheaply done. His pump hasn't gone yet, but give it time.....
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The same friend bought an Audi A6 2.5TDi auto for £150 with the 5 cylinder engine. Its done 190000 miles, and his partner is running around in that. Still runs well, although I don't know its history. That engine was a belter, I still think it was superior to the V6 for its combination of economy and grunt.
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What can you do to try and ensure it stays healthy in your ownership?
I agree with AE about this, you need to drive it hard, it does them no harm, and keeps the whole intake system free of crud.
My boss has always bought diesels relatively new, and he always drives them hard. He's never had one go wrong yet....
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