So here I am doing my best to be responsible. Pulling out of a sideroad (ungritted, black ice everywhere) in an AWD Jag X type, brake gently, hit the black ice at which point the ABS kicks in. BUT, the car doesn't slow, and I'm now sailing towards the main road even though the pedal was hard down.
Now, someone do please correct me, but I think, in the old days, we were better off before ABS in this situation as at least one could control the skid. Here, the car just kept going. What should I have done? And before any cynical old Ebenezer says "go slower in the first place" this happened at around 2mph...
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Sledging even at 2 mph can have dire consequences - foot off and steer (if possible!)
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Black ice ? Forget it really...It's basically down to tyres against ice. You'll do a waltz round until something gets in the way, preferably the kerb, Been there, etc.
Better at 2mph than 20. Not really much you can do except sit back and enjoy the ride.
Instinct and self-preservation tells you to keep foot on the brake...you do have a little control if wheels are turning. Bit like steering a boat, I found out. Big delay between turning the wheel and the damn thing responding.
Ted
Edited by 1400ted on 21/12/2009 at 15:23
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Better at 2mph than 20. Not really much you can do except sit back and enjoy the ride. Lol................
It's not a good feeling when a modern car the brake pedal is banging and your still moving.
In a car with no abs it felt more in control but really abs is there to steer around a problem, do try very light braking the results are much better but not much!
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"the car doesn't slow, and I'm now sailing towards the main road even though the pedal was hard down."
Sorry but you have locked the wheels and as th wheel is not turning the ABS is confused.
When you lock the wheels, take your foot off the brake..
Black ice= very slippery = no brakes..
= brake gently.
"Foot hard on the brakes" is NOT gently.
May I suggest - without being rude- that what you have posted suggests you have no idea how to drive in these conditions and a little light reading might be instructive.
Four wheel drive and ABS cannot restore grip to tyres when there is none.
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ABS did not nearly kill you. The brakes (abs or not) on ice were not going to stop the car. You would have locked the wheel with non ABS and you would have lost steering.
At least with ABS you still had steering. Dont blame the ABS it had nothing to do with it.
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All ABS allows you to do is brake and steer at the same time and allow you to put full force on the brakes in knowledge that you won't lock the wheels - it does not necessarily reduce stopping distances.
The presence of black ice means you wouldn't have stopped without ABS. You would still have slid. The only thing you can do is wait. You can cadence brake, but that is simply replicating ABS.
I have an X type diesel 2wd and am of the opinion that it is too nose heavy for snow. Once it decides to go in a direction it has so much momentum it's difficult to get back under control.
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Supposing there is good or partial gripping surface on the nearside, and black ice on the offside. What does ABS do - allow breaking with the nearside wheels only, slewing the car off course, or permit none at all?
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>>What does ABS do - allow breaking with the nearside wheels only, slewing the car off course
By keeping all the wheels rolling, the car can resist any asymmetric braking as the car can still steer, wheras if the wheels have locked up on such a "split mu" surface, a spin is almost inevitable.
So, yes, the wheels on the good surface can apply some braking force, and no, the car doesn't necessarily spin out because of this.
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By keeping all the wheels rolling the car can resist any asymmetric braking
If one side has good grip, the wheels on that side won't lock with moderate braking. The other side won't have "any" grip.
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If all four wheels stop instantly, ABS assumes you have parked. There is not a separate sensor for vehicle speed, ie a fifth wheel.
I too have "parked" at about 2 mph. Used the kerb edge for traction to stop.
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Thanks all. Quick replies much appreciated. So, not much more to do other than steer/sit back/panic/pray. Seems ABS or not would not have made much difference.
"Foot hard on pedal" meant that that's where my foot was buried once the problem started. I did not hit the pedal as hard as possible when slowing as madf implies.
I am used to driving in snow and ice, however have been fortunate enough up to now to not have experienced anything like this.
This car is a 3.0 Auto estate so yes it is heavy, and of course I realise AWD/2WD/noWD is of no significance once the car is in a skid when slowing. The traction of these cars accelerating on regular fat low profile tyres however, is first rate.
Go carefully all...
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It's on soft snow/sand where the ABS will kill you. Without ABS the wheels will lock and the snow/sand will build up under the front wheels and stop you. With ABS the wheels continue to turn and ride up over the build up of snow/sand.
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ABS is not the braking equivalent of 4WD as I know to my own cost. Having crashed my car last year doing what the OP did (but down a slope onto a main road) I know know what to do, but yes ABS lulls into a false sense of security.
There should be some way of turning it off (As Audi did years ago) or having a sensor tell the system that the car is still moving despite all four wheels stationary.
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Seem to remember that a few years ago, that I had a Toyota that the ABS did not operate below 14 mph (a curious number).
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PS
Its just ice, its NOT black, the road surface is black.
&
the white "ice" is really hoar frost.
simple
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>>
Its just ice, its NOT black, the road surface is black.>>
See:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_ice
Edited by Stuartli on 23/12/2009 at 20:21
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I tripped my car's ABS purposely, but very briefly, the other night on wet snowy cobbles, and the retardation for that moment seemed quite good. However I was not on the shiny stuff. there was some friction between tyres and road.
I have had one of those brown trouser moments with ABS. It was in an old 2-litre Ford Granada, Scorpio shape, in Spain. The road was a bit damp but had an abrasive surface, and the car, four up, was going down a steepish ramp towards a major road. There were two brand new tyres on the back wheels. The ABS operated with its usual violence and there seemed no retardation at all, as if we had been on ice.
My conclusion is that the slippery stuff was still on the new back tyres, that I had been a bit rough with the pedal and locked one of them up, and the ABS - perhaps a bit sluggish or out of adjustment on a highish-mileage jalopy - did the rest.
Personally I would have put the new tyres on the front - they get scrubbed quicker like that anyway - but they had been professionally fitted the day before.
Main roads in London are fine, if salty, but some residential side streets have that sinister shimmer down the wheel tracks. Still a lot of ice around yesterday.
Edited by Lud on 21/12/2009 at 16:28
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ABS is not the braking equivalent of 4WD as I know to my own cost. Having crashed my car last year doing what the OP did (but down a slope onto a main road) I know know what to do but yes ABS lulls into a false sense of security.
No it doesent. ABS is ALWAYS a better option except in two fairly unique situations
abs or no abs you would still have crashed your car,.
There should be some way of turning it off (As Audi did years ago) or having a sensor tell the system that the car is still moving despite all four wheels stationary.
With ABS on the wheels wont be stationary. On ice it makes no difference turning it off.
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First reply:
foot off and steer (if possible!) <<
Completely agree.
Braking with ABS on sheet ice is a little better than braking with no ABS.
It is probably not as good as not hitting the brakes at all if you need to steer to avoid collision, but that is so counter-intuitive you need some practice not to just push the brake to the floor and praying!
Once you do hit a patch with some traction, ABS comes into its own.
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I took the van out just to test the ABS on more or less sheet ice yesterday. It was only just applying the slightest braking force as the wheels juddered with the ABS unit working.
I then tried pulling on the handbrake and there was no retardation at all.
Very impressive ABS under those conditions - allowing some steering control. I know from experience that without ABS it would have just slid away at the slightest brake application - or at best done a poor approximation of ABS of if trying cadence braking.
Frantic very rapid slight pressure cadence braking has saved my bacon twice on iced downhill slopes - heart in mouth.
I`m very impressed with it (yes, first vehicle with it) OK, deep snow ;-) Still to try that - but there is always the handbrake.. maybe..
(Yep, I know about front tyres digging in)
I suppose many drivers now have never driven on ice though - in a car without ABS.
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With ABS on the wheels wont be stationary.
They could be, if all four lock up more or less simultaneously the system will just "think" the vehicle has come to a stand.
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Having driven for 25 years without ABS and another 20 with ABS - winter and summer - I would plump for ABS any time.
I once had a rover 800 where in long snow the ABS would disable itself and you had to turn off the ignition to restart it... Did not like it at all: there is one very steep hill with traffic lights at the bottom in Stoke on Trent.. and the ABS decided to give up and I gently slid and slid and just stopped in time.
Having locked up brakes many times on ice, ABS any time...
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Madf.
Was that the bank that goes up to Hanley? Lichfield street is it? Memory like a goldfish.
I have one car with and one without abs so I can choose. If abs is fooled by 4 wheels locked and the car's still moving then it needs something else to improve it. A sensitive motion sensor of some kind would override the idea that it is stopped is clearly needed.
Not decided whether putting the clutch in and braking for longer is better than braking normally and putting the clutch in at the last moment. On the flat or slight uphill it's probably better. A steep downbank it's probably better to have the engine retardation.
Have felt the abs kick in on ice/snow. It's more distracting than anything having the pedal pulse, especially if like me you never seem to set it off. Nearly drove into the back of a parked car as it seemed to offer so little braking. Snow on the ground so it wouldn't pile up in front like you want. A careful reminder that you can feel you have more traction for acceleration than you can have for braking and that momentum is more than you realise.
Switchable abs would seem sensible. Off for snow. On for ice.
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Pulling out of a sideroad (ungritted black ice everywhere) in an AWD Jag X type brake gently hit the black ice at which point the ABS kicks in. BUT the car doesn't slow and I'm now sailing towards the main road even though the pedal was hard down.
Here the car just kept going. What should I have done?
Possibly not enough time to do, but I wonder whether engaging reverse and spinning the wheels backwards would have had any retarding effect? Would depend on the depth of the ice/snow but perhaps it could burn through to find traction if thin enough...
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Interesting thought. Knowing my luck, even if I had the time and brain power to think of that I would most likely just knacker the transmission....!
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I did a nice one on Saturday evening in Durham... Approaching a roundabout at the bottom of a hill, needing to turn right. slight brake as I entered, feeling back end start to move out to the left, so turned into it by turning left, gently dab of brake and executed the move much to suprise of SWMBO sitting next to me carrying our precious cargo - Chinease TakeAway (our daughter was sat in the back) - I still dont know how/why this works, but I've done it a few times in almost 30 years of driving, and so long as you ahve time to think it does work.
ABS meant that I could carry on steering without locking the wheels on ice/compacted snow (car - Espace)
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We had black ice caused by freezing rain yesterday - it was all I could do to stand up on it. I think with such slipperyness it's Hobson's choice between ABS failing to stop the car or locking the wheels and skidding the same distance.
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>> I wonder whether engaging reverse and spinning the wheels backwards would have had any retarding effect? Would depend on the depth of the ice/snow but perhaps it could burn through to find traction if thin enough...
Possibly. My farmer uncle used to show off in his LandRover by putting it into reverse (wheels locked first) then spinning all four wheels spectacularly, and stopping in a shower of mud over anyone nearby.
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ice
ice
ice
ice
is not black
jat
M
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ice is not black
...but 'black ice' is a well-known term
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_ice
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Nothing you could have done at all, its happened to me. My progress to the main road was halted
by the van waiting at the junction. The driver saw the funny side of my antics trying to avoid him and he said the terror on my face viewed from his mirror gave him a good laugh!
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Black ice may well "not exist" but is used as a generic term for ice that is difficult to see and may therefore be a contributory factor in accidents. Surely it's easier to use a generic term that everyone understands?! : )
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I suspect Focus P 's nickname stands for Focus Pedant
:-)
Edited by madf on 22/12/2009 at 11:01
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I suspect Focus P 's nickname stands for Focus Pedant
Oi! :-)
Surely the poster complaining that a well-known and understood term isn't technically accurate is the pedant here? Although SWMBO does moan when I tell her to use 'tsunami' instead of 'tidal wave' when describing waves other than those caused by the moon.
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: ) To be fair, Focus P was answering a point made by dieseldogg! I am going to change my name on here I think, stevied is very dull and it is actually my name.. although obviously my bank manager, CEO etc. don't greet me with "Yo Stevie D!".
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See, with me, its the unessary adjectives wot annoy.
for instance "very unique" or "cold temperatures" though that is a different kettle of fish.
the way our wonderful succient but expressive English language gets mangled on a daily basis is truly appalling.
cheers
M
PS
Is so called "black ice" more slippery than plain ordinary ice
PPS
How is "black ice" more difficult to see?
Assuming one has a functioning brain that is, and taking other factors into account
Edited by dieseldogg on 22/12/2009 at 11:22
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PS Is so called "black ice" more slippery than plain ordinary ice PPS How is "black ice" more difficult to see? Assuming one has a functioning brain that is and taking other factors into account
I think both those points are answered in the Wikipedia quote. It is more difficult to see because it's transparent and you can see the road surface beneath it; whereas normal ice is blatantly obvious.
And I guess it seems more slippery because it can take you by surprise. If you are confronted by normal ice you mentally and physically prepare yourself for slipping; people who don't see the warning signs for black ice just go ploughing into it, and then suddenly have a shock
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Its called Black ice because its dull. It doesent shine and all you can see is the black tarmac through it.
Dull as in pedantic argumants about speelin punctewashun and the correct name of fings.
We all know what black ice is. It requires no further clarification or explanation of terms.
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I was aware of all of the above,
this generally presented as a feeble excuse for having an accident due to driving outside ones abilities or the climatic conditions pertaining
Ps
I did peruse the wicki article
Edited by dieseldogg on 22/12/2009 at 11:33
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See with me its the unessary adjectives wot annoy.
If you read the wiki article I linked to
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_ice
I think it answers your questions. It implies the 'black' isn't unnecessary - it's describing a particular type of ice.
EDIT: you beat me Armstrong Sid
Edited by Focus {P} on 22/12/2009 at 11:31
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From Focus P's Wikipedia link: "black ice is ice frozen without many air bubbles trapped inside, making it highly transparent. This type of ice appears in the color of the material beneath it, often wet asphalt or a darkened pond. Because it may be difficult to detect, it presents a significant hazard to automotive traffic, pedestrians, and sailors."
I don't know if pedestrians who are sailors are at higher risk..... I imagine Portsmouth is a dangerous place in icy conditions.
It basically means ice that one can't see properly because it is "disguised", I think. Imagine you're walking along, it's been a bit icy in parts, your brain is functioning properly (the person in this example clearly isn't me) but you don't see the ice that is on the corner of the pavement as it is so-called black ice. Whoosh! Over you go. Same thing can happen in a car, although hopefully not on the pavement, unless you're at a Polish bank. Happened to my mum in 1985, although I suspect the fact that she was driving a Marina 1.3 coupe (can't get the accent on here!) may have also been a contributory factor. Hinstock to Newport (Shropshire) road if anyone knows it. If this black ice stuff did exist, it would be a nightmare along that road! : )
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If you can afford to run a Jag then you can afford winter tyres too. :)
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re the post from barney.,
There are times in weather like this you wont stop. ABS or not. The secret is to brake early - this way you know early on you wont stop, and sometimes you can plan your suprise exit from an icy side road into a gap in the traffic. Done this a couple of times!
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If you can afford to run a Jag then you can afford winter tyres too. :)
Don't see how you work that one out. This is an X type not an XJ or XKR..... Just put new tyres on in any case....!
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Would winter tyres actually make much of a difference on black ice (sorry, "fewer bubbles, semi matt see-through frozen water on black tarmac")?....
Edited by b308 on 22/12/2009 at 14:57
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Hmmmm
very very fractionally
probably
unless studded (unlikely)
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Thanks for using the correct terminology! : )
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The above comment was for b308 btw!
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You can still threshold brake with ABS, but it's hard to resist the temptation to push the pedal harder and harder. Tried it on a skid training course, decided it's worth being able to steer.
Came as close as I have been to being stuck today, grinding uphill at about 0.5mph with traction control light flashing away like mad. Tried turning it off, but just redlined it (unexpectedly too, hope 5500RPM is OK for a diesel...)
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Jackie Stewart's book
Principles of Performance Driving
Chapter 6 The Road Application.
"The problems caused by sudden steering imputs, harsh acceleration in lower gears and over energetic braking will be aggravated, increasing the possibilility of a slide or a skid.
The trend towards anti-lock brakes is a commendable development amongst the world's car manufacturers, but it is merely an adjunct to smooth and sensible driving.
However good the equipment, it is the operator that matters, and in this case the operator is the driver."
Driving is a skill.
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