I just had a call from the garage servicing my gf's car before we sell it.
The drop links need doing (no surprise, it's a consumable on this car), it's having an MOT and an oil change service. All in all, £302!!!!
I questioned this, and was told that the service was £140. For an oil change. I questioned this and was told that their standard rate was 2 hours. I told them I would come down and collect the car as I could do it myself in 30 minutes with no special tools.
Of course the problem was that they had already dropped the oil out. Eventually the service manager backed down and said that they didn't want to lose a customer and were willing to do the service for 'whatever you think is a fair price'. I said I thought an hour would be more like it, at most, and to be fair they have agreed to this.
Trouble is, my gf had asked for a basic service. I would have interpreted this as an oil change and visual inspection. Given Kwik-fit would do a change for, what, £25, I'm still feeling like she's being ripped off.
Any suggestions on how to approach this when I go down to collect it for her. It's left a sour taste to be honest, I thought we'd found a pretty good indie but it appears that they are happy to try and rip us off.
Humbug.
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realistically you should have agreed a price and what was being done for that price when you booked the service and asked them to contact you if any additional work was required.
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Can you give us a clue to as what car it is?
If it requires long life oil, then it will be more expensive. The fact that someone like KwikFit can supply the oil cheaper is that they buy in bulk and pass the savings onto the customer, and some cars take less oil than others, so someone with a small engine will subsidise someone who has a larger engine that takes more oil to refill but still pay the same price whether they require 3 litres or 6 litres of oil.
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Sorry, should have said. Ford Ka, so only semi synth and not that many litres at that.
£180 got a full main dealer service on my Accord with 5.5 litres of fully synth at £ludicrous per litre, hence why I am so aggrieved.
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Indeed, it appears she agreed the work but not the price. Lesson learnt.
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Ford dealers will do a minor service on three year old + cars for £99, might be less on a Ka, that's oil, filter, pollen filter, general check inc coolant SG etc, stamp in the book.
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>>... stamp in the book.
Two local franchised dealers to me (Honda and Mitsubishi) both advertise £99 services but both are adamant that they won't stamp the book for that price. They say they use cheaper oil and pattern oil filter. Neither includes the pollen filter (they're usually relatively expensive, so makes sense to omit them).
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>> Two local franchised dealers to me (Honda and Mitsubishi) both advertise £99 services but both are adamant that they won't stamp the book for that price. They say they use cheaper oil and pattern oil filter. >>
No, the Ford offer is proper oil to Fords 5w/30 spec and Ford parts. Sounds like the Honda and Mits offers are dealer lead rather than manufacturer.
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Main dealer 2nd service on my 2.0 MX5 was £156 which included brake fluid. I thought that steep and would go elsewhere if not under warranty. (cue people telling me I can have work done away from Dealer and still maintain warranty)
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Indeed it appears she agreed the work but not the price. Lesson learnt.
Doing this with a garage is like playing Russian roulette with every chamber of the revolver loaded !
My dad took his immaculate and not very old Passat into a dealer to have an MOT and service. They rang him up and said that all the brakes need doing so he said okay. No money was discussed and as a consequence, on top of the already heft MOT & service bill he was charged another £350 for something that it is very doubtfull that needed doing at all.
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I questioned this and was told that the service was £140. For an oil change.
I think you're whole post is a bit much, to be honest.
Regular readers will know that I hate dealers but an oil change isn't a service. Sure, I would rather it was free but £140 for what for many people would be an annual check is hardly extortionate, at a facility which has huge overheads. It cost my neighbour more than that to get his lawnmower serviced!
What is completely ridiculous it taking a car to a dealership and not agreeing the scope of the work and the price.
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£140 is a fair price for a full service, but a full service was not what we asked for or wanted. This was an oil change and basic check to give potential buyers some peace of mind.
I have no objection to paying a fair hourly rate, fair to include a reasonable sum to cover overheads, but 2 hours for the above is not reasonable. If the garage want to charge £140 for the work they were asked to perform then they should be upfront about the hourly rate, not inflate the time they would take.
You are, of course, completely right that she should have asked for a quote first. I will make sure that doesn't happen again.
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2 hours for the above is not reasonable. If the garage want to charge £140
If the £140 incs VAT then, allowing for the parts too, then the time is clearly inflated as the dealer labour rate would have to be under £50/hr. Most are getting towards £100 these days. One hour, plus parts, plus VAT, seems mcuh more likely.
The typical basic annual servicing on most cars (I look after 4, all different makes) is an hour and does cost around £150.
It's only men who get wound up about these things - a woman would pay the bill and not even think about it, that's why they're so good at buying things. :)
Edited by Bill Payer on 30/09/2009 at 13:17
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One hour, plus parts, plus VAT, is exactly what I have agreed with the dealer principal, and I think that's fair.
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If one looks at the service sheet, it is far more than an oil change, so did you ask for an oil change, in which case £50 is fair, or a service, in which case closer to £130 ish is fair if you go with a glossy dealer with glossy overheads.
Our Daihatsu dealer did the first service on our Sirion for £118.95. That included an oil change, all the service checks and a fully bodywork check ( I know someone who doesnt charge for it, who would have thought! ). I agreed that price at booking at it was noted on jobsheet.
What is the break down of the drop-links replacement? MOT is a fixed cost so Im assuming the drop links are about £120 worth of work, parts and labour?
It doesnt sound unreasonable unless its a grotty backstreet garage with low overheads.
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Given the menu pricing most dealers seem to operate these days for services, I've noticed that oil and filter changes are getting pricey by comparison.
Recent example: had the Bravo's oil and filter changed at our (very good) local Fiat dealer last weekend. Was £52 for the oil alone (Selenia WR 5w40). Trouble is, being a 1.9 diesel with a big sump, it took 5 litres of the stuff...
So by the time you've had that, a new OEM filter at about a tenner or so, 30 mins labour (even with the "regular customer who bought the car from us" 10% discount I get) and the VAT man's little precept on top, you're some way the wrong side of 80 quid without even trying.
I'm sure I could get this done cheaper somewhere else with less fancy oil, but I take the rather simplistic approach that if the manufacturer recommends a particular kind of oil for the engine, then that's what it has.
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I paid £25 at my local tyre place for an oil + filter change and rear brake pads. I supplied the parts, got the car back 2 hours later.
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I paid £25 at my local tyre place for an oil + filter change and rear brake pads. I supplied the parts got the car back 2 hours later.
How can they make money at that rate? Or are they taking the approach that £25 is better than nothing?
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How can they make money at that rate? >>
Have you considered these two possible reasons -
Either they use it as a loss (or low-profit) leader to get you through the door and sell you other higher margin stuff,
Or they can afford to do so because they operate as fast-fit centres where the overhead costs and wages are not comparable to the glass palaces (similar operating model to fast food outliets).
Edited by jbif on 30/09/2009 at 15:47
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>> I paid £25 at my local tyre place for an oil + filter change and >> rear brake pads. I supplied the parts got the car back 2 hours later. How can they make money at that rate? Or are they taking the approach that £25 is better than nothing?
Maybe they reckon they can do oil and filter change plus rear brake pads in half an hour?
Don't see a problem doing the oil change in that time, not so sure about the brakes as well..
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I charge (SWMBO) two biscuits and a mug of coffee per hour for labour and source Mobil 1 0w40 when it`s on offer at Halfords (currently £37)
I obtain an OEM filter, discounted from the dealer by begging that I live entirely on a pension.
(They don`t know it`s Gold Plated and more than their wages)
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Do you think I should take some biscuits down to the garage then? Might make them like me more :-).
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Gordon, is it a Ford dealer? Ref my post - Ford dealers doing basic services for £99.
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Cheddar, no, it's a local indie recommended in the Good Garage Guide on this site, and whom I have previously had fairly good experiences of.
I didn't know about the Ford offer or I might have taken it there - our local Ford dealer has been conspicuous in their honesty and lack of upselling in the past. Ah well..
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Cheddar no it's a local indie...
That makes your other comments about "service manager" and dealer principal" a bit puzzling - indies don't ususally have such things.
Perhaps it also explains the time vs price - one would hope/expect an indie to do a more thorough job than a franchised dealer, but they won't have the everyday familiarity with particular models so will likely be somewhat slower.
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BP, possibly the wrong job titles.
I spoke to the guy in charge of the workshops - a service manager I would have thought? Then spoke to the big boss - no idea of his real job title.
It's a fair sized indie - has a paint shop, about 5 bays for cars and an MOT lane. Must be 10-15 mechanics working in there I would think..
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Mobil 1 0W-40 is always £19.99+VAT for 4litres at Costco. Comes in Petrol and Turbodiesel flavours.
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Unfortunately, I think many indies claw back on parts what they give away on hourly rates. I was shocked at my last service that semi-synth oil and filter were charged at £85, overal the price was good, but...
I now supply my own fully synth oil and filter at about £50.
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Comes in Petrol and Turbodiesel flavours.
Allegedly it's the same stuff in different containers.
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Well I just went and got the car back. I'm really not sure who I spoke to yesterday now, the guy at the desk today thought it was his colleague the mechanic who worked on the car.
Anyway. They have been better than their word. Both lower front suspension bushings changed, 'basic' service (included some advisories so not just an oil change) and an MOT and it came to £220. Which I think is very reasonable. They had also valeted the car inside and out, which they have never done before.
I almost feel guilty - speaking to gf last night she had been pretty vague about what she told them to do. On the other hand I do feel that the price we've paid is far more reasonable than the price they originally proposed.
Still, as long as we talk to them properly beforehand, I'd certainly use them again. A learning experience.
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I love a story with a happy ending. :)
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It's all relative. Now for a real rip-off. A friend of mine has a Class 3 Mobility Scooter which cost him about £2000 new almost 3 years ago. The front wheel bearings have worn and need replacement. It is impossible for a private owner to obtain parts or repair manuals for these things. He has been quoted £130 for new bearings plus £58 attendance fee, plus VAT. And we think garages are ripping us off! I just had a 12 month service and MOT for less than that.
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I think it's just indicative of the way things are (as with mobility scooters), whenever there is a relative monopoly business with little specific competition and supposed specialist knowledge for a specialist item.......we end up paying through the nose.
My wife often says how she likes to help the small shopkeepers in the village and not the big bad supermarkets....unlike me she doesn't remember the time before supermarkets when the little shops were shafting us all with high prices.
I always wondered why the big supermarkets have not opened car servicing/repair super centres on their premises. I suspect the big supermarkets could be trusted more more than many other companies to do it right and provide a decent service at a decent price.....and you could even get clubcard points etc....It would certainly add a level of competition, badly needed to improve the general level of service the motorist receives from the profession.
P.S. I always hate it when the main dealers quote prices for parts and service that never include VAT, and when you say does that include VAT, they say no, almost as if they have never heard of VAT. I don't think that most main dealer customers would be VAT registered or able to claim the VAT back?
Edited by davecuk on 02/10/2009 at 04:56
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P.S. I always hate it when the main dealers quote prices for parts and service that never include VAT and when you say does that include VAT they say no almost as if they have never heard of VAT. I don't think that most main dealer customers would be VAT registered or able to claim the VAT back?
I agree that VAT prices should be quoted to retail customers.
but.. many retail customers try to make out their trade, so as to claim a discount - the trade want to be quoted less VAT of course.
the way I deal with that, is if I dont know they are trade or retail, I will say 'thats £100 retail, less VAT - which is a total of £115 including VAT'
That mostly makes things clear.....
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My local Citroen dealer make a point of going through what they are going to do and for what price when I take the car in for a service, and any extra items are detailed in a phone call.
That's how all dealers should be, isn't it?
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Last year, I had the car, motorbike and lawnmower serviced about the same time.
Other than the service there were a couple of extras
The bike needed the carbs balancing and an MOT
The mower needed a new choke cable
The bike was the cheapest. The mower the most expensive. And it only has one spark plug and takes a tiny amount of oil! I suggested the bike shop open a sideline in mower servicing.
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That's how all dealers should be, isn't it?
That's probably because Citroën UK are having a bit of a campaign to improve dealer standards at the minute.
I was surprised recently at how friendly, helpful and communicative my local Cit dealer was recently.
I was less surprised when afterwards I received a call from Citroën UK with a long list of questions about the service I received from the dealer! :)
Edited by TheOilBurner on 02/10/2009 at 11:55
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,>>>>> I will say 'thats £100 retail, less VAT - which is a total of £115 including VAT'<<<<<<
Surely that is a recipe for confusion?
Should say , 'thats £100 plus VAT - which is a total of £115 '
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Yeah must admit I found Tonys explanation confusing, I would have expected £100 less VAT to be £86.96.....ahh perhaps it's "garage speak" ;-)
Edited by davecuk on 02/10/2009 at 12:19
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>>>....ahh perhaps it's "garage speak" ;-)<<<
Bit like "Buy 3 tyres for the price of 4, and get the 4th one free!
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it is garage speak
i give my tyres away when i dont have any
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I have just had my Seat Altea XL 30k mile service done at main dealer - cost was £104. Now this is nothing more than an oil change but what it also gets me is
dealer stamp in book
hook up to computer for any updates
goodwill
Re goodwill, I have now had 2 alloys and the CD player replaced under warranty without any hassle at all. Have corrosion on a 3rd alloy and dealer has taken photos and emailed away for approval from Seat.
The way I look at it, if you go and buy a TV from the High St, they will charge you something like £200 for a 3 year warranty. My car comes with a 3 year warranty and if I have to pay £100 per year on servicing to maintain that warranty, then I think that is money well spent on a £15k purchase, compared to the £500 TV.
I think some people want the following scenario
-buy new car at cost price by playing dealer off against web
- get servicing done by backstreet garage / do oil change yourself etc
- but when something goes wrong they want a full prompt service from their local dealer!
Wake up and smell the coffee, if no one uses the dealers, they ain't gonna be there !
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If no one uses the dealers, they ain't gonna be there !
True, Bobby, to a point. But we also know that cars can be sold and serviced without all the expensive front-of-house flummery which is increasingly found at a franchised dealer. The punters pay for that somehow - I don't think there are any government grants.
Edited by Andrew-T on 02/10/2009 at 16:25
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hook up to computer for any updates
Only if something you've reported triggers a specific update. They are not done routinely.
Re goodwill I have now had 2 alloys and the CD player replaced under warranty without any hassle at all.
That's not goodwill, that's standard warranty. I can tell you from angry experience that you will not get real goodwill (out of warranty replacements) from SEAT UK.
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My car comes with a 3 year warranty and if I have to pay £100 per year on servicing to maintain that warranty, then I think that is money well spent on a £15k purchase, >>
If servicing is that crucial to maintaining a warranty, it would be in the manufacturer's interest to sell their cars with this built in to their pricing - i.e. include "free" servicing for 5yrs/60k miles [or whatever they felt was the crucial cut-off point].
Then there would be no need for consumers to scrimp and you could tell dealers that you only wanted the annual free warranty-service; anything else to be negotiated after it has been found to be absolutely necessary at the service inspection stage. These "extra" items could then be done at your option by the dealer or at an independent garage.
Edited by jbif on 02/10/2009 at 17:28
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