Very shocked, garage - {name generalised, edit by DD} are telling us rear pads need changing again. Car has 37 on the clock, brakepads fitted at 24 and 37000. Are they having a laugh? I understand there are various variables, but can anyone give us a definitive minimum mileage. Also, can a car fail on brake pads being worn? and finally, if you book a car in for service and mot, surely they should service and prepare vehicle to pass mot?
any thoughts gladly received, before m0nday showdown. (left carless for 4 days due to it failng mot on brake pads!!!)
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 07/02/2009 at 18:24
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My Focus 2.0 TDCI has just had new front pads at 50,000, rears half worn.
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In normal use, rear brake pads last longer than the ones on the front.
Are the pistons free in the calipers? Is the handbrake mechanism overadjusted?, or sticking?
>>but can anyone give us a definitive minimum mileage.
No - if I put my mind to it, I could probably ruin a set in a morning.
>>Also, can a car fail on brake pads being worn?
Yes, if the friction material can be seen to be below 1.5mm in thickness by the MOT examiner, the car will fail the MOT.
>>if you book a car in for service and mot, surely they should service and prepare vehicle to pass mot?
Have they actually done an MOT, and issued a fail sheet, or have they done the service and are telling you that it would fail if you were to MOT it in that state?
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In normal use rear brake pads last longer than the ones on the front.
Not necessarily. One factor is the original thickness of the pads, and the rears (when new) are often thinner than the fronts. There's no reason why the life of the rear pads shouldn't have been designed to be about the same as the fronts. The fronts on my previous Focus actually lasted longer than the rears.
Edited by L'escargot on 09/02/2009 at 07:23
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>>The fronts on my previous Focus actually lasted longer than the rears.
Is your handbrake sticking on a bit?
On a front heavy FWD car, the rear brakes do only a tiny amount of work in stopping the car - the wear due to braking on the rear axle should be minimal.
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On a front heavy FWD car the rear brakes do only a tiny amount of work in stopping the car - the wear due to braking on the rear axle should be minimal.
And the original thickness of the rear pads was minimal too! That was the point I was making. They lasted 74,000 miles so I'm not complaining. They would have lasted longer but it was convenient for me to get them renewed early.
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>>They lasted 74,000 miles so I'm not complaining.
This is also what I was hinting at in my post " the wear due to braking" - I suspect there was a significant proportion of that wear which was caused by cleaning corrosion products off the disc rather than material being lost with red hot brakes.
It's much more usual to see the life of the rear brakes being 2 or 3 times that of the front.
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Rear pads can only be failed if the material is below 1.5mm. This can only be a visual inspection as dismantling is not allowed on an mot!. Normally this would only be an advise unless there is nothing left of the material or there is eveidence of metal to metal.
I have to say a friend of mine has just had the same issue with a Focus at a ford dealer last wednesday with Pads & Disc's excessive wear & rears also below limits. Retrived the car back to work & and least 6k in the fronts & poss more in the rears!. Its just cost another MOT else where but cheaper than the £297.00 the dealer wanted to repair! His rear pads have done 55k so far!
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In order of your questions.
Definitive mileage on brake pads. Absoloutely not, for various reasons, including sticking caliper, seized handbrake, heavy braker, poor material, worn discs, etc.
Can car fail for worn pads? MOT, yes if visibly worn below 1.5 mm at any point.
Booked for service and mot and it fails after mot? Not been serviced is my 1st thought.
Certainly not been serviced to aceptable levels.
Service manager should be holding his head in shame, let alone sorting it for you!
hang him ! :) so he hangs his mechanic :). And praises his mot tester, because if he hadnt seen it the car would have left in a condition unfit for the road after having spent a considerable sum ensuring that it was!
And people complain about independants who dont do mot's, but prepare cars for them. If 1 of my serviced cars failed an mot I would not be able to explain it myself, let alone a customer.
Edited by yorkiebar on 07/02/2009 at 18:53
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>>If 1 of my serviced cars failed an mot I would not be able to explain it myself, let alone a customer.
A commendable and correct approach IMO.
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Steady on NC; did you see who posted that :)
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I needed new Front Discs & Pads at 21k on my Focus.
Reason being it's an 2002 Focus and only done that mileage - and the Discs were so rusted that the braking was compromised. And yes the back-street-mechanic insisted I looked at the old ones so I had peace of mind.
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and finally if you book a car in for service and mot surely they should service and prepare vehicle to pass mot?
You can expect the service to be carried out to the manufacturer's schedule, plus anything you specifically ask to be done, but servicing is not intended to prepare a car for a successful MOT test. The garage won't automatically renew worn items (tyres, brake pads etc) as part of the service although I would expect them to tell you if such items needed renewing before they carried out the MOT.
Incidentally, my first Focus (1999, 2 litre petrol) needed new rear pads at 74,000 miles. The fronts were still OK when I sold it at 79,000 miles in 2004.
Edited by L'escargot on 08/02/2009 at 08:02
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and finally if you book a car in for service and mot surely they should service and prepare vehicle to pass mot?
I think I should expand on my previous post.
Two things need to be taken into consideration.
(a) Was it a franchised dealer or not, and (b) what did you ask to be done with regard to the service?
At a franchised dealer, it would be reasonable for you to assume that the service would be carried out to Ford's schedule as detailed in your Warranty and Service Guide unless it was agreed otherwise. If the Guide hasn't changed in this respect since the 03/2003 issue (see the back of your Guide) then the service would include checking the thickness of the brake pads and advising you accordingly if the pads warranted being changed. It would not automatically include renewing the pads. To get this done you would need to instruct the dealer to do so ~ normally based on their recommendations.
At a garage other than a franchised dealer the service would depend entirely on your instructions. If you asked for it to be as per the Ford schedule then that is what the car should have got. If, however, you just asked for the car to be "serviced" then the content of the service would vary from one garage to another. You can't expect them to be able to read your mind. Some garages might just change the oil and filter, and top up the other fluid levels because that is all a lot of motorists would expect.
The service and the MOT test will be separate items wherever you take the car.
Edited by L'escargot on 08/02/2009 at 10:14
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"but servicing is not intended to prepare a car for a successful MOT test"
Except that a service should leave the car in a roadworthy condition, or a comprehensive list of notes as to why not, ie brake pads or tyres etc not up to requirements, or need changing soon.
An mot is an inspection on 1 day, of basic standards. A service is a thorough investigation of the roadworthiness condition of the car, possibly for the next 12 months. An mot should be straight forward after a service; unless you have been advised of parts needed and not given the go ahead to have them done.
Failing an mot after a service, without that proviso in place, and the service (of any standard) has not been completed correctly!
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>>Incidentally, my first Focus (1999, 2 litre petrol) needed new rear pads at 74,000 miles. The fronts were still OK when I sold it at 79,000 miles in 2004.
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Just had 1999 2.0 petrol brakes sorted.
60+K. New pads and disks all round. Ashamed to say they were certainly at the end of their life.
They have done at least 33+K. They may be the originals but I guess the front pads might have been changed before it was bought. That would equate to the rears lasting twice as long as the fronts.
My trusted indie charged £480 for the brakes plus a service with plugs and all filters.
Now a much happier driver and no complaints at the London area charges.
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I'm convinced this is a racket. The main dealer I have used for servicing said at the 12,500 service that I would need front pads next time. They were proposed (and declined) at 25,000 and 37,500. At 50,000, the original pads were described as 60% worn, but they proposed new discs and pads all round due to "disc corrosion" (declined again). The "corrosion" is the rust around the edges (!) and some invisible (to me) black pit marks on the braking area.
One day they'll be right (maybe they were last time) but they've been crying wolf for so long I'll never believe them anyway.
56,000 now. When the weather warms up a bit I'll get the wheels off and have a good look.
I know these places can only survive by maximising workshop revenue but they're going about it the wrong way by being dishonest. Now there's no warranty, I'm off; if I trusted them, I might possibly have returned.
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Our 53 plate Focus has never had new pads, and at the moment the fronts appear about half worn. This car does mostly local driving also. Regarding the rear shoes, if they are drum brakes like ours, these practically last the life of the vehicle, unless they get damaged in some way, eg by leaking fluid.
So I would say yes, they are having a laugh !
My father got ripped right off by a VW main dealer, who changed all of the brakes on his 5 year old Passat at 22K miles.
This is a car which is driven so carefully and gently it is just untrue, whats more, I had a near identical passat as a company car which I drove hard, and this never had brakes in the 58K or so miles till I handed it back. On these types of car, it is easy to just feel the brake pads through the alloys to see right away how much 'meat' is left.
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...I'm convinced this is a racket....
I never realised wiper blades only lasted a year until the car passed its third birthday and needed an annual MoT.
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Mega SNIPQUOTE!
In reply to myself
Sorry, forgot to mention, our Focus has 34K on it..
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 08/02/2009 at 13:58
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At least your garage isn't incompetent - I took my micra in for a while-u-wait oil and filter change. A couple of dipsticks were using an angle-grinder to take the rust of another car's brake discs!
I won't be going there again.
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...I'm convinced this is a racket...
I never realised washer bottles had to be drained then refilled with fresh solution at every service...
Might ask to see the old stuff they drained out next time ;-)
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I never realised washer bottles had to be drained then refilled with fresh solution at every service...
Use your initiative. All I do is say "No screenwash, thank you". Easy peasy.
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At least your garage isn't incompetent - I took my micra in for a while-u-wait oil and filter change. A couple of dipsticks were using an angle-grinder to take the rust of another car's brake discs! I won't be going there again.
They may have been servicing the discs. That's how I service mine every 40,000 or so.....jack up, gently engage 1st gear so it rotates, [foot on brake if auto, release slowly], make sure don't have limited slip diff!.....grind off rust with Black 'n Decker carborundum wheel. Use old screw driver and hammer to clear the inside ventilation holes, bang off residual rim rust with hammer.
As long as they are still thick enough, they are ok. Didn't need new ones on our old Passat
till 200,000.
If you change pads and discs too early, the pistons will never use up their full travel, so will corrode sooner because the cylinder walls are not bathed with brake fluid, so you may have even greater expense if they start leaking.
Can't see how 'pitting' is a problem - some, especially on motor bikes, have numerous holes right through them!
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>>Can't see how 'pitting' is a problem
If a brake disc is designed to have holes, then it's strength is adequate with them. A brake disc with excessive pitting may not be strong enough to work properly, and could fail when you need it most.
From a well radiused hole, it's unlikely that a fatigue crack will grow, however, from a relatively small, sharp, pit, fatigue cracks will readily grow, aided by the corrosion products found there.
A disc with excessive pitting is an MOT failure.
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>I never realised washer bottles had to be drained then refilled with fresh solution at every service...
Nor did I. Funny thing is that mine came back last time filled with stuff that smelled exactly like the Halfords additive it had had been full of when it went in.
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I bet the BMW driver I was following down the A3 at Guildford yesterday get's through pads as quickly.
Driving style was the sit on the car in bumper, and brake every 15 seconds or so - what a dipstick
MVP
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I love the £15 (PLUS VAT) for sundries, which includes washer fluid, hand wipes! environmental disposal (huh) and as someone once said - Swarfega and Mars bars !!!
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A brake disc with excessive pitting may not be strong enough to work properly and could fail when you need it most.
>>from a relatively small sharp pit fatigue cracks will readily grow aided by the corrosion productsfound there. A disc with excessive pitting is an MOT failure.
I find the above very hard to believe. Has anyone ever seen a crack grow windscreen-like across a brake disc? Has anyone out there in all your millions of miles motoring come across many...or indeed any...cases of a disc disintegrating under hard braking? It must be about as common as crankshaft failure. I tried googling 'brake disc failure' and came up with nothing apart from some Japanese research.
How exactly is 'excessive pitting' defined for MoT failure?
I would agree with the comments made on this thread about the unduly early replacement of discs being a scam.
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Seen many discs sheared across due to excess wear.
to explain better, the bit with the wheel bolts in still bolted up, but the braking part of the disc broken away and spinning,
Not every day but it happens more than you might think
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>>the bit with the wheel bolts in still bolted up, but the braking part of the disc broken away and spinning,
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I too have seen this. Guy at work brought one in that his indie had removed.
I would discribe it a as more like a round shim than a brake disk. Astounded to see it.
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Seen many discs sheared across due to excess wear. to explain better the bit with the wheel bolts in still bolted up but the braking part of the disc broken away and spinning
Happened many years ago to my brothers 205, not nice as the braking distance all of a sudden increases some what.....
funny that someone mentioned broken crankshafts... I had a viva that cut out on the over-run .. crank had sheared between pistons 1 and 2.... very unusual!
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Quite a common failure with Viva engines. Happy days!
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Regarding the short life of the OPs pads, some drivers are heavy on brakes. It may be as simple as that.
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