Hi
Just wondered if anyone knew the answer to this question as the Police and local council do not.
At a roundabout give way line how far should I be able to see along the road to my right?
There is a roundabout near my house, the junction is basically a T junction with a roundabout on it and I drive along the upright of the T. The visibility to the right is reduced because of a wall build on the edge of the footpath.
I have spoken to the council and they say that the roundabout and road is 'up to spec' but no body knows what the spec is!
Any links to suitable web sites that may have the info would be useful, I have Googled but go bogged down after page two of 3.5 million and I still did not find any thing suitable.
Any info would be appreciated.
Many thanks
Derek
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I don't know how relevant this is to your case but in general a garden wall next to a highway/pavement needs planning permission for a height exceeding 1 metre. tinyurl.com/67pnfy
I think "next to a highway" means within 1 metre of it.
Edited by L'escargot on 22/10/2008 at 10:31
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Hi
Thanks for that.
The wall in question is much higher than that, approx 5 foot and borders the pathway.
Apparently the local council tried to get the builder to move/change the wall just after it was built and the builder told them that if they continued to try and get him to change it HE would take them to court and sue them, the council backed down ! ! !
This has come a burning question just lately as my F I L had a minor accident there about 2 weeks ago.
The thing is when ever I got to that junction I would always say to my Wife that the visibility was poor.
I spoke to the Police when the accident happened and they referred me to the council, the council say it is within spec but do not know what the measurements are supposed to be.
Many thanks
Derek
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........ borders the pathway.
One tip .......... if you try to get the situation altered, say "pavement" not "footpath" or "pathway", to avoid anyone quibbling about terminology.
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See also tinyurl.com/58tulg
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Which council did you talk to?
Planning is down to the district council, but highways is a county matter. Talk to the highways dept.
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Yes would be worth speaking to County Council Highways department.
This is an issue of "visibility splays". I've found a document (which I assume has the proper DfT guidance) - says the minimum visibility distance on a 30mph road should be 90m. For main/ busy roads this line of sight should be achievable from a point 4.5m back from the kerbline of the main road. The distances are less for residential estate roads than for main roads.
These are guidelines for new development, how strictly these are followed for alteration of existing roads depends on local circumstances. The council cannot go around taking old walls down to bring roads up to modern specs.
But if this guy built his 5' wall recently without planning permission they should have the power to order it removed or reduced to the legal 1m height?
The document I found the above specs in is here (beware its a 5.7MB pdf):
snipurl.com/4ldeu [www_herefordshire_gov_uk]
Or try to find a copy of: Highways Agency - Design Manual for Roads and Bridges - 1994
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"say "pavement" not "footpath" or "pathway","
I think the official term is "footway".
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Footway - The part of the highway alongside the carriageway that is provided for pedestrians (although pavement is commonly used to describe a footway, it is not strictly the correct term).
Pavement - The underlying structure supporting the highway.
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The Standard for the design of roundabouts is TD16/07. Unfortunately this Standard came in last year, just as I retired from designing roundabouts. A quick look shows that the visibiliy requirements haven't changed much though.
The Standard does not call for any visibility along adjacent approach arms. The visibility required around the circulatory carriageway varies depending on the diameter.
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The Standard does not call for any visibility along adjacent approach arms. The visibility required around the circulatory carriageway varies depending on the diameter.
I assumed the OP meant it was a "mini roundabout" (painted blob on the road), as he says its on a T-junction. Perhaps the OP could clarify?
Would a mini roundabout have different criteria to a proper roundabout with central island?
I must state I dont know much about road design, the visibility info in my first post is only what I gleaned from the document I found.
Edited by Rich 9-3 on 22/10/2008 at 11:35
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If it is indeed a mini roundabout then, yes, you should be able to see the whole of the circulatory carriageway. In any case you should be able to see around the circulatory carriageway as far as the previous entry.
If you feel like a quick read then TD16/07 can be found here:-
tinyurl.com/55gw5e
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Hi
Sorry should have put more of a description of the roundabout in the original post.
It is not a pointed blob, it has a raised brick centre area with a block paved road surface around it and then two lanes of proper road around that so it is a fairly big object.
It is not as big as a one you would find on a dual carriage way thought.
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The OP is about visual obstruction on the outside of a roundabout, where I suppose on a straight road vehicles could be approaching quite fast. But we all know roundabouts with great bushes and the like in the centre, which can also be a problem, tho I guess gyrating traffic should be doing less than 30. Councils or authorities must be responsible for those?
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Go on, give us a google maps link to get an idea of what it's like.
A bit like this - tinyurl.com/5pj9a9
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Hi
Good idea
Have a look at this
tinyurl.com/5k6n9e
So the problem is when coming down Malvern Road towards the roundabout and looking to the right.
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I sympathise.
I and another on again/off again back-roomer have daily cause to use tinyurl.com/5lkalx
notice how far back the give way line is on the spur of the 'T'.
The speed limit on the road across the top of the 'T' is 20mph, for all the difference it makes - traffic crossing the bar of the 'T' from the right tend to accelerate towards the roundabut, as there is a 30 limit on the far side, and traffic crossing from the left often bahves as if the roundabout just is not there - in fact, I'm certain that some drivers are completely unaware as they zoom over the give way markings
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Have a look at this tinyurl.com/5k6n9e
Looking at the discolouration on the block paving - is it that cars enter the roundabout a lot faster than they are supposed to/ than it is designed for? ie. the visibility may be adequate for cars doing 30-35mph but some drivers go faster than that.
We also have a couple of roundabouts near us where some drivers approach way too fast, hoping they will not have to stop.
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That visibility looks OK for traffic entering from Malvern Road.
The problem is probably caused by traffic entering the roundabout too fast from the dual carriageway. The diameter looks a little small for a dual carriageway resulting in poor deflection for entering traffic. Traffic is supposed to be deflected to slow it down. Judging by the presence of the hatched centre roadmarking it looks like the highway authority has tried to divide the traffic flows and thereby increase the deflection.
The brick overrun area is intended to deflect light vehicle paths but still allow HGVs to turn. An overrun area shouldn't be necessary on a dual carriageway roundabout of correct size.
I suspect that the roundabout was constructed onto an existing road; always a difficult thing to do when there are land constraints.
All you can do is ask the highway authority/police if there has been a history of accidents (the police record the accidents but share the information with the highway authority). If there is a high record of accidents then ask the highway authority what they are going to do about it.
With regard to Borasport's junction: again, poor deflection = high entry speeds = accidents.
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