" Don't run it on veg oil, stick to the specified fuel. (My partner has a 140k mile Bosch equipped TUD with a completely untouched fuel system other than for maintenance items)."
And I've got a 200k 405 TD that's done 10k on 100% waste veg oil so far this year.....
The fitting of the 306/405 XUD TDs with injector pumps from Lucas/Bosch went in batches, but I can assure you that it's not done to any pattern - I had an L 405 TD with Lucas, and now an M 405 with Bosch, but all the very late (N/P) 405s seem to be Lucas.
|
Skoda Fabia vRS. Done. Best car i have ever owned, bar none. Has everything you could ever need in a car, at a bargain price, and will cost less than peanuts to run.
Selling mine was my biggest automotive mistake to date (up there with replacing it with a Golf V6 4Motion).
|
I'm afraid the "running on veg oil for 200k" is akin to the 90 year old who smokes 60 cigarettes a day - it proves nothing.
Straight vegetable oil has no working specifications for engine fuel use - you might be lucky or not. Until we can genetically engineer the plants to give oil of the right cetane rating and to meet the minimum lubricity standards, (for starters) you would be better to leave it on your salad.
I was involved in the supply of some pumps to PSA. You would not see the results of various engine builds at the consumer end in any logical order because engines would go variously to Citroen, Peugeot (vans and cars) to assorted destinations depending on build specification.
659.
Edited by 659FBE on 22/09/2008 at 16:46
|
"Straight vegetable oil has no working specifications for engine fuel use - you might be lucky or not. Until we can genetically engineer the plants to give oil of the right cetane rating and to meet the minimum lubricity standards, (for starters) you would be better to leave it on your salad."
Except I bought the car for £265, and have saved of the order of £1,000 by running on veg oil. I bought my first batch of waste oil, and now collect it for free.
I'd agree if I was running a £5k car, but your reasoning/advice does not stand up in my particular situation.
|
|
|
"running on veg oil for 200k" proves nothing.
Quite. When the proposed capital cost of the car is £500 and WVO is free, you only have to do about 2-3,000 miles to be at break-even (assuming car has a residual scrap value).
Who would care if the lubricity were lacking resulting in catastrophic failure?
|
And bear in mind I did not go into the matter blind. There's plenty of evidence/advice/info on running XUDs on veg oil out there on the web, and it all pointed in the same direction.
There are some issues, but lubricity is not high on the list.
From Wiki on Rudolf D:
"The diesel engine has the benefit of running more fuel-efficiently than gasoline engines. Diesel was especially interested in using coal dust or vegetable oil as fuel, and his engine in fact ran on peanut oil."
Edited by oldnotbold on 22/09/2008 at 17:53
|
Thanks for your replies - I am starting to feel a bit more positive about the diesels now.
Looking to avoid the dual mass flywheel issue, it would appear this is more an affliction of the later VAG TDIs - poss 2003 on for the Golf Vs.
Would it be fair to assume the earlier 02 cars from Skoda and SEAT wouldn't have the DMFs as they (appeared) to play second fiddle to VW and Audi in the refinement stakes. Is there anyway to tell, or a conclusive list out there on the web? I found HJs FAQ page, which only mentioned the latest Passat and Golf Vs form 03 on, so hopefully the Skoda/SEAT and even Bora's are less likely to have these dreaded flywheels.
|
The power units fitted to Skodas (haven't checked SEAT as vehicles not to my requirements) are identical to the corresponding VW units. So, if a VW Passat gets an AWX diesel engine with DMF, the Skoda Superb with the same power unit gets it too.
As an extreme and not fully checked generalisation, all VAG diesels with PD engines will have a DMF - it needs all the taming possible. Having said that, I have seen plenty of DMF equipped VAG cars with starship mileages on their original clutch and flywheel.
I use my Superb as a tow car and I'm considerate with the clutch - although it gets a workout when my big trailer is loaded. I think DMFs take exception to traffic light grand prix starts - which can be tempting given the torque of the PD.
659.
|
Does anyone know of a list of what VAG TDI engines are what - ie PD or not PD, DMF or no DMF - and what cars they are likely to be found in?
Trying to interpret the wikipedia pages on the Octavia and VAG TDI engines gets confusing for my little old head.
Would a 51 plate Octavia 1.9TDI Elegance have the 110 non PD, and therefore be minus the DMF?
|
Don't get too hung up on the DMF - on a Golf its only about £650 I think, which when compared to other problems on other cars isn't too bad....
And (touch wood) so far my vehicle hasn't had it replaced in 143K (I've got the full print out and there has been nothing expensive done to it before I had it).
But to answer your question:
VAG Group Diesel Engines
90bhp non PD - Golf, Octavia
100bhp - I think this *might* be PD, but I stand to be corrected. All cars I think, especially later registrations.
110bhp non PD - Golf, Passat, Bora, Octavia
115bhp PD - Again all
130bhp PD - Again all
150bhp PD - Golf, Bora
The 51 plate Octavia would indeed have a 110bhp engine, and I think it would also have a DMF.
Have a look at these links from UK MKIVS forum (mods - are these links still allowed??) uk-mkivs.net/forums/t/173695.aspx & uk-mkivs.net/forums/p/192815/1252697.aspx#1252697
|
|
I keep meaning to double check this, but the Roomser (1.9d 105bhp) hasn't got one of these. The handbook helpfully tells you how to establish whether it has or not and equally helpfully points out that it might or might not - I think I decoded mine to read that it hasn't. WIll double check in a minute.
|
Would a 51 plate Octavia 1.9TDI Elegance have the 110 non PD, and therefore be minus the DMF?.......
The 110 Tdi is the old non PD 1.9 unit in the Octavia. I have an 03 reg 110 tdi, non-PD. The PD was introduced into the Octavia when the new shape Mk 2 came along (in 105 PD and 130 PD 1.9 format, as far as I recall)
|
oh yes, the 105bhp - missed that one. We're running an A3 in the company fleet with that engine, so much as I can tell its basically a detuned version of the 150bhp lump in my golf, but definitely without the 'Go'!!
Come on then Blimp, are you going for the Octavia?
|
>>This is why, unfettered by a DPF, the 1.9 PD engine is about the most efficient unit ever produced.>>
The PD system does not allow independant of the control of the injection timing so refinement does not match efficiency.
>>The big difference between the systems is that only the PD (unit injector) design uses engine oil rather than fuel to lubricate the highly stressed cam and roller follower which produces the linear motion required (in any diesel) to compress the fuel.>>
Though the valve train design is thus compromised because the engine was not designed for the additional unit pumps and it really does not make sense running the unit injectors from a belt driven cam(s), it simply places more stress on the cambelt.
>>Find a 1.9 litre VAG PD engine (in whatever body/badge suits you) which has been operated with the correct engine oil, observe the belt change regimen recommended and you are unlikely to be disatisfied with it.>>
Unless you have driven a contemporary Renault, Toyota, Ford, BMW, Peugeot etc diesel in which case you will find the PD a rattly and rumbly old nail ...
... hence why the latest VAG diesels are common rail.
Edited by cheddar on 23/09/2008 at 08:31
|
I can't believe the general consensus on this thread is that any diesel engine that's not a VAG PD or a quarter of a century old Peugeot design is a nail.
Of course, common rail diesels have the ability to spring crippling bills, and yes it happens, but when you consider nearly half of all new registrations are now diesel, the majority of those sold in the last 5 years are common rails, and fleets are still buying them on a repeat basis in their hundreds of thousands, they can't be that bad. I know maybe ten people with common rail diesels, a couple of which have six figure mileages on them, and not one of them has had a significant problem. My previous company is on its third batch of dCi Meganes, and reports reliability to be no better or worse than the diesels of varying makes its run for the last 20 years. The odd disaster, but generally trouble free at 100,000 miles when they come off fleet.
The biggest problem with common rail in my opinion is that the technology has clearly advanced beyond the capabilities of the staff in dealer service departments. Is this the technology's fault though? I seem to remember similar issues when the first EFI cars came along, with dealers replacing random components to fix problems, and generating unnecessarily large bills for owners. I had a petrol injected Peugeot ten years ago that the dealer was completely incapable of fixing, and on which minor faults evolved into massive and expensive (for the company) headaches.
I have nothing against the VAG PD, and indeed have been on here many times singing its praises (particularly as a 130 PS 1.9) I love its instant grunt and terrific fuel economy, but its refinement is firmly rooted in a previous era. You simply don't have to put up with clatter, vibration and rumble from a diesel any more, and a good common rail is far superior in this respect. And PD's are not fool proof. Indeed, just as a common rail can be crippled by misfuelling, look at the bill you get if you put the wrong oil in a PD. No car is idiot proof.
Edited by DP on 23/09/2008 at 09:21
|
I can't believe the general consensus on this thread is that any diesel engine that's not a VAG PD or a quarter of a century old Peugeot design is a nail.
Quite. My family run a VW Touran PD 105 and a Fiat Stilo Multiwagon 1.9 JTD. Both are excellent units. The Fiat is slightly newer but both are fully serviced properly and neither give any trouble.
If there is a difference, the Fiat is far more refined and quiet at speed than the VW and is a more pleasant place to be when on the motorway. The VW is very noisy, even at 60/70 mph. And even when in sixth gear it feels like it needs another to quieten it down. This is a shame because the cabin of the VW affords a better driving position for longer journeys (although I find the lumbar support pathetic in the VW compared to the fantastic seats in the Fiat). If I could swap engines and driver's seats over, I would!
Why not also consider a (and I'm going to be a bit left field here) a Kia Cerato diesel? You will get an almost brand new example for under 5k, perhaps even under 4k. Really under-rated car and with very low emissions (129g). I very nearly got one instead of the Fiat, but my heart may have ruled my head as I'm a bit of an Italian car addict.
|
Why not also consider a (and I'm going to be a bit left field here) a Kia Cerato diesel? You will get an almost brand new example for under 5k perhaps even under 4k. Really under-rated car and with very low emissions (129g).
This raises a fair point. Is it not just certain engines that have developed an 'interesting' reputation, and that the faults are not necessarily universal?
I've not heard of any significant defects on newer VM engines such as the one in the above Kia and many other makes. Also Toyota CR engines don't seem to have a reputation.
In fact on reflection most of the problems seem to be confined mainly to dCis that have been driven in a mimsing fashion.
|
|
alanovich, does the 105hp have enough grunt for the touran? jag.
|
The VAG PD system most certainly does allow the injection timing to be controlled fully by the ECU. The cams for the unit injectors are arranged to make pressurised fuel available over the whole range of fuel delivery timing required by the engine. The actual start of injection is defined when the injector solenoid is energised by the ECU - until that happens, pressurised fuel is diverted to spill. The area of compromise in the PD system is the control of pilot injection - a different thing entirely.
If it doesn't make sense running the injectors from a belt driven cam, where does the fuel pressurisation energy come from in a common rail engine? The cambelt, which drives the high pressure pump. With the PD engine, injection pressures are higher in order to increase engine efficiency so cambelt loadings are correspondingly greater.
The cylinder head was of course designed exclusively for the PD system. Some compromises were required in terms of engine valve cam widths in order to accomodate the unit injector cams. The fix was special engine oil. Use this, and there is no issue with engine longevity.
Of course, the PD is becoming history due to its expensive fuel system and lack of refinement in some areas. Don't forget the original poster's request - "Diesel for 5K". A PD engine bought in this price range with a proper history is in my view a better long term bet than a CR unit for the same money.
Remember the budget of the OP - you can't expect the ultimate in refinement for 5k but you can get high efficiency and longevity - not to be sniffed at.
659.
|
|
|
Looking to avoid the dual mass flywheel issue it would appear this is more an affliction of the later VAG TDIs - poss 2003 on for the Golf Vs.
As far as I know, VW has been fitting dual mass flywheels to diesel engined cars since the Golf 4 appeared on the market in 1997. DMFs are not new and have been used by many manufacturers on both petrol and diesel cars since the mid 80s.
|
Going back to the OP, my friend has just bought a 54 plate Xsara Picasso with the 1.6 diesel engine in it.
My dad, brother and friend also have this engine in their Picassos and none of them have had a single issue and all are regularly getting high 50's mpg.
|
|
we have a 100hp bora which is pd with dmf. now on 74k and passed it's mot this am no probs. i gave it an italian tune up before i took it in for it's test, for 100hp it can shift when the loud pedal is floored. it is now worth approx £3000 as a trade in, so makes a good choice for op. jag.
|
I gave up on VW diesels.. the vibration and harshness at idle drove me nuts.
(when you grow old, you are far less tolerant)
|
It is true ... you can't whack the grunt and throttle response of a VAG diesel, but even their best mate would say they're rough round the edges
|
|
A nice Volvo S60 D5, good old lump.
|
|
|
|
|
|
