I knew that Mazda wasn't Honda or Subaru (interior of my Outback is looking very well after three years despite almost no care at all), but was surprised it had been so easily damaged by such an obvious item.
Poor design presumably means poor design elsewhere in the car as well.
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Quite likely.
Although a lady's ring can do a lot of damage to a car's trim.
I once saw an otherwise tidy Merc coupe with dreadful scratches and gouges around the door handle.
Every time she got in, she must have scraped the paintwork.
Which goes to prove diamonds are forever, but Mercedes are not.
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>>>Poor design presumably means poor design elsewhere in the car as well.
Not if my 6 year old Mazda6 is anything to go by.
The interior could never be described as luxury, but it is durable. Nothing has fallen off yet.
No scratches on the gear stick, either!
Clk Sec
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My wife has an engagement ring I bought her. It has a row of diamonds all around it and will scratch almost anything she scrapes it against. You would need to see what did the damage before making a judgement.
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Standard Japanese fare - their stuff is often well put together but look elsewhere for thick panels durable materials etc. Much of it looks good but only for a short time - plenty of showroom appeal.
No, Japanese = durable.
I have had a string of Japanese cars and they have all proven durable with regards to internal trim. Indeed one of the things that made me choose a new Subaru was seeing old and abused examples that were rust free and still in good shape.
We have a 53/2003 Polo 1.4 in the family (owned from new). The bodyshell is good, but the reliability and trim durability not a patch on the Japanese cars we've owned. It rarely goes 6 months without requiring some sort of repair (new Lambda sensor, new rear caliper so far this year and HVAC flap motor is going faulty - mega-expense to fix). The rubberised coating around the dash 'pocket' is pitting and peeling away and its hardly as if that area is subject to wear!
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No Japanese = durable >>
You wouldn't say that of the early Datsuns and Toyotas - the wings and other panels were just a few grades above tin foil.
Probably much the same as any other car now.
What would you buy as a workhorse - a Mondeo or a Mazda 6?
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>> No Japanese = durable >> You wouldn't say that of the early Datsuns and Toyotas - the wings and other panels were just a few grades above tin foil.
Good grief man, European cars of that era were not much better (VW had not even made a watercooled car at that time!). I can remember when 'Audi' was a byword for rust. They may have been flimsy, but they had the great advantage that they kept on working and delivered what the customer wanted which is why we had things like '10% limits' on Japanese car sales and so on.
What would you buy as a workhorse - a Mondeo or a Mazda 6?
Mazda 6.
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My wife has an engagement ring I bought her. It has a row of diamonds all around it and will scratch almost anything she scrapes it against. >>
Blimey!! Doesn't bear thinking about!!
Edited by Optimist on 10/08/2008 at 17:58
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My only point was that Japanese stuff of that era was 'tinny' in comparison to European cars.
I'm well aware plenty of European cars had plenty of problems, and the Japanese cars did get a reputation for reliability - and some extravagant bills when they did go wrong.
As regards workhorses, take a look at hire fleets, driving schools, etc.
Dominated by Ford and Vauxhall - cheap to buy and cheap to look after.
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Behind and around the driver's door handle on my previous car (Mondeo MkIII) was stratched. Albeit light stratches. I was the only driver apart from when serviced and opened with my right hand so no rings.
Only explanation was it was my fingernails because nothing else could have done it. Previous Passat never had this problem so the quality of paint probably partly responsible (water based vs solvent?).
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When the salesman checked my last Subaru over before pricing it for trade-in purposes he marked up a diagram of the car for blemishes. He scribbled (cross hatched) all the door handles to show that there were fingernail marks. I don't think that any car would pass that type of scrutiny unless you had used 'T Cut' on them first.
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My Passat when it went back at early 4 years/60k had no scratches like this. But it helped it was silver but no they were not there. The only mark had been there since day one on left C pillar - and the bloke removed it with his finger nail. I'd had a go but didn't want to scratch it.
Of course a wing, the bonnet, front bumper and light all replaced after an accident... and the front straightened out ;-) Not obvious.
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All the BMWs I owned wore well. The only downside was the E46 330d which (foolishly) had silvered plastic trim around the driver's door handle, this had scuffed. I don't wear jewellery of any sort, I can only assume contact with the keys as I clambered out or maybe SWMBO on the odd occasion she drove it. I occasionally clean this now (if the current owner is out spooking motorists in Scotland or Canada with his new Typhoon) -it comes up like new despite being nearly 8 years old with moonshot mileage. That is probably the best BMW I have ever owned.
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As regards workhorses, take a look at hire fleets, driving schools, etc.
>>Dominated by Ford and Vauxhall - cheap to buy and cheap to look after.
The reason that hire fleets etc buy so many Fords and Vauxhalls is because of the massive discounts they are offered by the manufacturers, so that they can sell the cars on at 12000 miles for more than they paid for them. Cheap to look after doesn't really come into it, because those fleet cars never get anywhere near the end of the warranty before they are sold, although I guess that reliability is a bit of a factor, since they don't want too many of their customers stuck by the roadside calling out the breakdown service and cursing the hire company.
You can be sure that if other manufacturers were offering their vehicles at such massive discounts, the hire companies would be quite happy to use them. But that's the point -- other manufacturers don't have a business model in which the production lines are kept rolling only by selling huge sales massively discounted cars to fleets. (Citroen, for example, keep its sales up by heavy discounting, but it discounts to the general public rather than just to fleets. Ford and Vauxhall keep retail prices high, but then sell very cheap to the big fleets).
Sure, many Fords in the last decade seem to be genuinely good cars, better than posher brands. But the hire companies used Fords in the days that they were Dagenham dustbins, so they weren't chosen for quality; the choice is more about the business model of the manufacturer than the nature of the cars.
As to the scratched gearlever knob, I'm amazed that anyone worries about that. Does a scratched knob work less effectively?
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"As regards workhorses, take a look at hire fleets, driving schools, etc.
Dominated by Ford and Vauxhall - cheap to buy and cheap to look after"
Not exactly workhorses. Many driving schools(e.g. the AA) dump these after a year. So many of their cars come up at auction. Fleets dump them within or at the 3 year mark. So they appear to only be good enough until the warranty expires. If the Ford and VH brand was that good enough they would hang on to them longer surely, to run them as a workhorse. But no. Its all about the discount they get from the manufacturer to entice them to buy.
The majority of tight fisted owners want value for money and not to spend out too much over the life of ownership. They own German or Japanese because they know where quality and value is to be had.
Ford and VH sell cheap cars because they usually fail/fall apart the day after the warranty expires. If they believe they sell quality, why don't they offer 5 or 7 year warranties like their counterparts. They don't. Because as Gerald Ratnor might say, they know they sell "crap".
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Fords crap ? Sorry but that statement is utter rubbish in my view and considerable experience. As I have often mentioned on here before I have driven well over 1.2 million miles across 40 vehicles in my lifetime. Several of those cars were Fords. Not one of them has ever given me the slightest problem. I only wish I could say the same for some of the so called premium models I have also had along the way.
This generalisation that mainstream cars are less capable of perfoming their tasks reliably and consistantly is simply not true.
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I have 2 focuses at the moment. Have owned Fords for the past 15 years. I think I have a better idea of their capability to be "workhorses". Apart from two I always get rid of within the 3 years warranty. The two I didn't both failed within a month of the warranty expiring.
As to their reliability and being consistant over this 3 year period, answer me, why don't they give a 4,5,6,7 year warranty.
If Ford and VH believe their products are good enough, let them put their money where their mouths are.
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We must all speak as we find I guess and I concede that an individuals experience is too small a sample size to be conclusive. My cars though, have to work hard. A thousand miles a week is common and has been for 30 odd years.
My disapointments have included a Merc C class Estate, new gearbox. A BMW 3 touring, new engine. A Volvo V70, snapped its cambelt with resultant chaos. A Renault Espace, well, lets not make the post too long. A Rover 800, see Espace.
On the other hand, several Cortinas, a fistful of Sierras and half a dozen Mondeos, not a moments trouble. The last few have been self financed and have been run to very high mileages without so much as a murmer.
What can I say.
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In fairness a Cavalier Sri and a pair of Golf GTis were faultless too.
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I have also owned a Jaguar and a BMW 3 series. The best cars I've ever owned.
You cannot get away from the fact that if the execs at Ford or VH believed in the quality of their product, they would give a better warranty. I used the Ratnor quote as I feel the bosses at Ford and VH see us as mugs and that we get what we pay for.
I'm sure various east Asian marques have problems with reliability but on the whole they are always in the top 10 of any survey. And cheap to run as seen by sections of the community who don't want to crack open their wallets too often over the lifetime of their purchase. These sections draw towards Japanese and German makes on a noticeable frequency.
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I gave up on VH. Everyone I owned from the Nova, Corsa and Astra caused me to go to the dealership with the management light illuminated. That light provides VH with a cash cow to get owners in to have an "investigation" carried out. I must admit, Fords management light rarely comes on unless there is a genuine problem.
Again a reliability issue.
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I have also owned a Jaguar and a BMW 3 series. The best cars I've ever owned. You cannot get away from the fact that if the execs at Ford or VH believed in the quality of their product, they would give a better warranty.
Is the warranty on a Jaguar or BMW actually any longer than that on a Ford or Vauxhall?
AFAIK, the longest warranty offered in the UK is by Kia. By your logic a Kia is a better car than a BMW.
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"Is the warranty on a Jaguar or BMW actually any longer than that on a Ford or Vauxhall?"
No, but the quality is better. Thats the point. The post was specifically about Fords versus the Japanese models.
"AFAIK, the longest warranty offered in the UK is by Kia. By your logic a Kia is a better car than a BMW."
No. I suggested that Ford and VH should offer better warranties if their reliability were to be upheld. They tend to go wrong more often after the 3 years. Which shows that they don't think they will be able to suffer the cost of owners bringing them in after that time. Whereas Kia has thrown a gauntlet down to say, the quality maybe not up to BMW standards, but we have faith in our product and will back-up the reliability of our cars with a 7 year warranty.
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Has to be said that Ford and Vauxhall were the main brands that had to be brought kicking and screaming before they'd offer more than one-year warranties.
They're good cars now -- because they've had to be. If it wasn't for quality product from Japan, Germany and so on they'd still be offering garbage like the 1990 Escort -- be under no illusions.
As for BMW and quality, excuse me? They're no better and no worse than any other mainstream Eurobox. They merely appeal to the "oooh, shiny things" brigade who value cheap bits of soft plastic instead of cheap bits of hard plastic.
When I see a car with soft-touch plastics and colour-coded stuff in the interior I'm immediately suspicious. It's classic snake-oil tactic -- "you like the sumptuous leather" paid for by the plastic tensioner on the cam, and the cabling two gauges below correct spec.
Put it this way -- if you owned a seven-year old car, would you rather the glovebox started to rattle and bang along the road, or the ECU failed?
Edited by jase1 on 11/08/2008 at 00:55
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AFAIK, the longest warranty offered in the UK is by Kia. By your logic a Kia is a better car than a BMW
Kia is more value for money than BMW. It takes lots of courage to offer 7-yr warranty. Definitely BMW doesn't have that courage. Kia is trying hard to establish themselves in UK market where as BMW (and many similar brands) have taken everything for granted.
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Jase1 wrote: 'When I see a car with soft-touch plastics and colour-coded stuff in the interior I'm immediately suspicious..... It's paid for by the plastic tensioner on the cam, and the cabling two gauges below correct spec.'
We thought that when the Japanese cars started to arrive in numbers in the late 1970s.
They were all well-equipped - tints, push button radios etc - but the feeling remained quality was only skin deep.
The window winder on the Ford might have fallen off when you slammed the door, but at least it weighed something when you fished it out of the footwell.:)
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'course you never actually got round to breaking the window winder on the Ford as you couldn't get it started in the morning!!
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I'd have thought the 70s Japanese cars were the polar opposite of what I was talking about anyway:
70s Datsun -- great engineering, no frills, rough around the edges (and bordering on the too-cheap in some places) but above all HONEST transport, where the money was spent on the things that mattered.
00s VW -- all frills and no trousers, cheap engineering (often sub-Citroen if friends' experiences are anything to go by), a totally DISHONEST way of selling cars.
I don't care if the interior starts to look a little shabby after 6 or 7 years. I want the engine, gearbox and electrics to still be going.
The most reliable vehicles I've ever owned were Koreans, and 90s Nissans -- both followers of the "what you see is what you get" school of design.
Edited by jase1 on 11/08/2008 at 14:44
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BTW I do happen to agree that Ford probably have the build quality about right in the newer cars -- but then it has to be said that the Fiesta and (previous-model) Focus were cheap-feeling inside. Never bothered me -- when you dug around there was a noticeable lack of corner-cutting compared with Vauxhalls, Peugeots and VWs.
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There is a difference between cheap looking and cheap.
The Mazda I looked at was only two months old and already badly damaged at an areas when the damage is celarly noticeable and would put people off. imagine what it would look like at three years.
Cheap looking the Mk1 Focus may have been, but it lasted well and the car is inherently sound as we all know.
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I put 100,000 miles in 3 yrs on a (leased) 2002 Focus TDDi estate. Driven hard, used for carrying bootfuls of kit all around the country, used for taking stuff to the dump at weekends, and generally worked for a living.
In three years it had 7 services, five sets of front tyres, one set of rear tyres, diesel in the tank, washer fluid in the bottle, and just one unscheduled fault - a chirping auxiliary belt tensioner. Nothing broke, nothing fell off, and when I had it valeted to return to the company at the end of the period, it cleaned up pretty much like new. I would have bought it if I'd had any need for it. Still drove beautifully too with no visible wear on the seats or boot carpet, and no creaks or rattles.
My father sold his 180,000 Mondeo 2.0 GLX on an M plate two years ago to a neighbour who is still driving it. Now on 205,000 miles. Bodywork is looking a little tatty, but the interior is still good, and the mechanicals still fit and healthy. It's even still on the original clutch! It hasn't been serviced for three years!
Cheers
DP
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