We are the new owners of a 2003 130 TDi PD passat estate. The car was with one owner on lease from LLoyds and was put on the long service program now at 112k, we asked the dealer what oil was used in the last service? and his answer was 'I always use 10W40 semi synth on these cars.
I read here and on the VW official bulletin that the standard is a PD approved 5W40 and not the above, would the fact that the dealer used it with 10W40 can do any harm? or should we change the oil now to 5W40 before we start driving it?
The oil was changed a week ago as the dealer serviced the car before the sale. We expect to do about 13K miles/year with this car so should we change the oil say every 10k instead of the long service? (which I understand is the standard for corporate drivers piling up large milage in short period).
Edited by Pugugly {P} on 09/01/2008 at 11:47
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You might be fortunate, but using the wrong quality, and wrong viscosity (two separate aspects) could cause valve train problems. If it was only one oil change with the wrong oil, just get it out and replace with 505.01 or 507 standard. If the wrong oil was used all through its life: personally I'd reject it.
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Can you contact the garage who serviced the vehicle during its in-service life with Lloyds? Have you got a full history with the vehicle?
Find out what their service information is?
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Got full dealer history. Spoke to Audi and VW centre in Stonhouse and the car was always on 505.01, look as it was only in the service last week that the our local dealer used 1040, since than car only done 4 miles. Should we change the oil now?, the local motor factor here in stroud sells mostly Millers oil and I think they do 505.01 grade PD oil.
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If you do a search here on the PD130 engine you'll read favourable things about its construction, complexity and potential for longevity. You'll also read how vitally important it is to use the correct oil. If it was mine I'd go out and buy 5 litres of Millers XFE PD (£17.95 where I go) and ask the dealer to change the oil and filter for you and reimburse you the oil element of the service invoice. Then for the relatively low cost associated, I'd change the oil and filter every 5,000 and switch to 10K servicing (at an independent who knows what he/she is doing.)
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Thanks NeilS,
Ye I can get a good local supply of Millers (almost half the price of Halfords stuff), will do as you say, I think there will be no prob as the dealer is very local to me and we are going back a long way.
Just out of curiosity, is it an easy DIY oil+filter change on this engin? the reason I ask is we always use to change the oil ourself on the old Primera and Almera.
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DIY oil changes are easy if you have the patience to remove and replace the undertray with all its various fittings. The dealers either suck the oil out or break the undertray and lose some of the fixings - not a good idea. The oil filter cap requires a 14 sided large cup socket to unscrew and re-torque it.
Get the non-VAG approved oil out of it asap, change the filter and suck as much oil as you can out of the top of the oil cooler. If you've had a fair job done of the draining, it will take 4 litres to the upper dipstick bend.
If you like the car and are going to run it long term, do another oil change after about 1000 miles, then every 10k miles. The need for specific oil and frequent cambelt changes are the only downsides to this otherwise splendid engine.
If the vehicle was previously on a variable service regime with 505.01 oil, this will have caused premature wear - the correct oil for this service is 506.01 or 507.00.
659.
Edited by 659FBE on 09/01/2008 at 16:57
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If the vehicle was previously on a variable service regime with 505.01 oil, this will
have caused premature wear - the correct oil for this service is 506.01 or 507.00.
How is anyone to know whether the correct grade of oil for the type of service regime has been used by any of the VW dealers in the past services?
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'>>>I always use 10W40 semi synth on these cars.
This is typical of garages everywhere, they usually know better than the handbook.
The advice already given about changing to the proper spec is correct. I would use 506.1 or 507 and change it once a year.
And yes they are a good engine, if looked after.
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I had a new PD Lupo once and a lad in VW parts told me to use "ordinary multigrade" .
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I merely flagged this as a potential problem as the opening post describes the vehicle as having been on the "long service programme" - which I took to mean variable servicing and a later post details the use of 505.01 oil. There is a possible inconsistency here.
Receipts for services should detail the oil type used by part number - if it's not right there will be potential long term problems.
VAG really take the biscuit for crummy documentation - as well as an extreme lack of clarity. Some details in the service manual are just wrong. It is not unknown for the dealers to put the wrong oil in PD engines - just as the final vendor of this particular vehicle did.
659.
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I have bad news for you I'm afraid.
If this VW has been on "Longlife" servicing then the correct oil to use is VW506.01
The other spec of oil, VW505.01 is for "Fixed distance" servicing only.
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 10/01/2008 at 10:30
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507 supercedes 506.1. 505.01 is still used for severe service, where variable servicing is not advised. Source: www.volkswagen.co.uk/assets/Longlife_servicing.pdf 506.01 is still required on the VW Toerag v10 I believe.
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Just to say for your midpoint oil change national tyres do a change with 505 01 spec oil (eg fixed vw servicing) now for £35. Not a bad price if you can't be bothered to do it yourself - just close your ears if they recommend lots of other stuff and trust your local independent for everything else.
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From the FAQ on p.2 of the VW webpage above:
"Do I have to use LongLife oil all the time?
Yes. If you want to take advantage of the LongLife service regime. Please note that if the engine is topped up with more than 1/2 litre on non-LongLife oil between services the service indicator will come on earlier and the time or distance between services will be reduced."
Who are they kidding? Is the sensor (if there is one!) that sensitive that it will detect 10% volume of the 'wrong' oil and then modify the time that a service is due.
This is very, very clever stuff or maybe the document was issued on 1st April.
I remain unconvinced.
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Something else,
Thanks for the link noretones2. I bought myself some Castrol Edge 5w-30 (507) in France a month or so back. But I then started to worry that it wasn't 0w-30 (506) as specified in the handbook.
I can relax now knowing it's an updated spec. and supposedly even better.
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Who are they kidding? Is the sensor (if there is one!) that sensitive that it will detect 10% volume of the 'wrong' oil and then modify the time that a service is due.
They are, to put it bluntly, lying.
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As someone else has said, these engines are robust as long as you use the special 505 or 507 spec oils. The reason for this is that the unique design of the PD engine means that the cam-driven injectors need an oil with even better than normal anti-shearing capabilities. Even oils like Mobil 1 cannot provide this. I would say that any garage that says standard semi-synth 10-40 is okay are bodgers in the extreme, and if this oil is in your engine, I would change it immediately for a 505 or 507 spec oil.
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Agree with sentiments re garage bodgers. There are 10w/40 505 00 oils, which is where the error might creep in. Also, '505' doesn't actually exist. Its either 505 00 or 505 01, which are for different applications. For the PD, 505 01 is apparently essential, but the suffix is easily overlooked. Even '507' is actually 507 00: no doubt this leaves room for a 507 01 version. There must be a better way to designate oils than the VW method!
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From what I believe from my Comma handbook, 507.00 oil is required in cars with a DPF and/or on variable servicing. 505.01 is fine for PD engines without DPF on 10000 miles change intervals. Confusing innit! You should try working in a Motor Factors explaining to the tightwads I deal with that if they put cheap 15/40 diesel oil in a PD engine it'll do it no good whatsoever.
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No doubt they think you're trying to con them, and that "oil is oil"! Not an easy job: condolences:)
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Personally, I think a lot of this stuff is cobblers.
They need oil with "even better than normal anti-shearing capabilities" - really? I'm not disputing the mechanical requirements, but is there really such a limited range of oils that have that capability?
There's a bit of a row going on in Mercedes land at the moment as it appears that few of the dealers are using MB229.31 or .51 low ash oils that are required in the later diesels. And many MB dealers use Castrol Magnatec in older cars - but it's a "special" version made just for MB delears. Yeah, right, 'course it is.
Edited by Bill Payer on 15/01/2008 at 23:27
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I was going to write a brief explanation as to the advantages of a unit injector system (PD) as has been used for years on large diesels. It's late.
For the sake of brevity, I will summarise by stating that this engine's undisputed efficiency arises from the very high injection pressures used (higher than common rail systems) which are generated via the camshaft using special cams with roller followers pressurising the fuel in each injector.
The PD can inject fuel at nearly 30,000 psi (in old units). The stresses resulting from this on the cams and followers are appreciable. The stresses on the valve actuating cams and followers are equally appreciable because these cams are narrow in order to leave room for the injector lobes.
Special oil is a definite requirement for this engine - as it is for most commercial diesels using this operating principle. In both instances, they run well and last well only when this oil is used.
659.
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I was told by a Seat dealer that PD oil contained "Lithinum" ? no I can't prove it one way or the other but it is there to stop cam wear I was told without the engine will last at lot less
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Don't you think a lot of this is symptomatic of the whole extended service interval / "no user serviceable parts inside" ethos peddled by the manufacturers these days? People are actively discouraged from lifting the bonnet of a car, greeted as they are by a big plastic cover riddled with lawsuit dodging warning notices that the manufacturers say can do 20,000+ miles between services.
The mechanicals are out of sight, and I truly believe that to most drivers they are out of mind. Therefore when an oil warning comes up, they'll stick in "oil". Having been discouraged or even prevented from taking any interest in the inner workings of their car by the way it's designed, why on earth would they suddenly consider what the right oil is?
I actually think manufacturers increasing efforts to isolate owners from the workings of their car are bringing about a major cultural change which is potentially damaging to the car, and could even have major implications for road safety. Do people still bother checking tyre pressures or brakes, for example? A car is maintenance free these days, right?
Cheers
DP
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I was told by a Seat dealer that PD oil contained "Lithinum" ? no I
This is an interesting point and I don't know if its true, but it is logical/possible, as Lithium was used extensively in extreme pressure gear lubricant treatments and some greases, and has the properties to withstand large pressures I think.
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I read here and on the VW official bulletin that the standard is a PD approved 5W40 and not the above would the fact that the dealer used it with 10W40 can do any harm? or should we change the oil now to 5W40 before we start driving it?
snipquote!
It would appear now that most dealer/car supermarkets use 10W40 period. I brought a 56 reg golf 1.9 PDTDi at the weekend. looking throught the manual as you do i noticed that the car supermarket i brought it from had changed the oil as it was stamped and ticked off in my service book. Now i have just came back from the car supermarket as when i phoned them and i asked them about the oil they used because it being a VW PD engine she said we only use 10W40 so i went over and spoke to them face to face. I explained to them that useing the wrong oil could invalidate my warranty as it need to be changed and refilled with the proper oil. She went off to speak to a technican and came back to say that a genuine filter would have been used and the oil should not cause any problems. What a total load of rubbish. It's now booked into a VAG independant monday to have the oil changed back to longlife out of my own pocket.
Whats scary is that they offered when i brought it manufacturers servicing for 3 years for £300. How can it be manufacturers servicing when they don't use the correct oil.
Simon
Edited by Dynamic Dave on 16/01/2008 at 21:30
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The mechanicals are out of sight, and I truly believe that to most drivers they are out of >> mind. Therefore when an oil warning comes up, they'll stick in "oil". Having been discouraged or even prevented from taking any interest in the inner workings of their car >> by the way it's designed, why on earth would they suddenly consider what the right oil is?
I think a bigger question is: Why on earth do manufacturers design their engines so that they (alledgedly) need special oils? Why don't they all just design to common spec of oil?
if I look in my Mercedes's handbook, I can use just about any oil in the UK - the viscosity required varies according to the ambient temp, but in the UK most grades are OK, and servicing varies according to whether the oil used is mineral or synthetic.
If a 5W40 oild *has* to be used in an engine (in the UK), what happens if the car is used in Alaska? Can the same oil be used?
Edited by Bill Payer on 26/01/2008 at 13:38
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They designed the PD as genuine advances in fuel economy, power and emissions could be obtained. Having one "grade" could cause design to stagnate, as well as having to change the oil unnecessarily often. Even the Americans change the formulations: API SM is the latest for petrol, but still a generic rather than engine makers standard. www.api.org/certifications/engineoil/categories/up...f
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