The problem is, Avant, is that I am not entirely convinced that there is a new car on the market for £10k that can deliver what he wants. He wants a turbodiesel with a reasonable amount of space that is made from 'quality parts'.
But he has £10k to spend. I just can't see this being really that possible, I really can't. As such despite his insistence it must be new, this has to become a part of the discussion.
|
Fiesta TDCi? Good to drive, spacious enough for most uses, very tough, and will probably last as long as any other small car at this price range. Fun to drive too.
Blue
|
Fiesta TDCi? Good to drive spacious enough for most uses very tough and will probably last as long as any other small car at this price range.
£12595 for a Fiesta 1.6 TDCi and thats before options. Discounts are available but £2600 saving? Unlikely I would think. Bit small as well.
See my point? You cant even buy a good Fiesta for this budget.
|
|
|
|
I think what is also important to remember with me as an individual - im the guy who works out his mpg for every tank of diesel - not the guy who times his route home from anywhere or takes any joy out of taking a bend in the road with any kind of speed - been there, done all that, lifes too short to drive on the doorhandles when you have kids who rely on you.
My joy is when I see a Renault broken down and I drive on in my Suzuki or when I work out that my Rover costs less than half as much to fuel as my mums car.
I like it when I only see the dealer once a year too. My heart is in being misery with money - this ten grand is to buy a car - its not a gift to do what I want with, but to help me with a specific problem - my grandmothers joy in life is to help her family and see her money work while she is still alive, she doesnt care one bit if its lost in depreciation.
As such, if she tells me to use the money to buy a new car, thats what ill do and if it falls below ten grand, ill raid the options/accesories list and use it up.
What is important are the running costs and reliability AFTER purchase which are the costs that I will shoulder - Im wary of modern CR diesels because they appear so fragile compared to the older ones.
|
Suzuki Swift diesel not made from quality parts then? What engine has it got? Who makes it?
Its my favoured choice at the moment followed by the Rio diesel.
I think a larger supermini is large enough for me.
|
The 1.3 litre diesel engine in the swift is sourced from Fiat.
Make of that what you will in terms of quality :)
|
|
|
|
I think a Fiesta TDCi for £10K should be easily acheiveable, I would suspect that Stu would be more interested in the 1.4 model for a start. Dealer incentives are normally in the region of £2,500 for Ford, although it does depend from quarter to quarter and on specific model of course.
Stu - On the subject of Common Rail, I've been doing a lot of digging recently when considering a possible car for next year, and I can say, without a shadow of a doubt, that every car in your price range has some sort of inherent weak spot, TDCi is injectors, PD is cambelt (I'd forgotten about that), Volvo is injectors, BMW is manifold. Whatever you buy, you are more likely to suffer an expensive failure at some point during 20 years than you are if you buy an equivalent petrol. However, if you think that you will save enough money to make it worthwhile then that will negate the cost of the failure if and when it occurs. Just buy it and enjoy it! :-)
Blue
|
Right. I have a suggestion. Don't laugh, and hear me out please.
Why don't you get something that if it goes wrong, it'll be cheap to fix. Something with plenty of space. But something thats reasonably fun, looks pretty funky, and will hold your interest.
Why dont you consider... a Fiat Panda 100HP. You can get them from £8500 giving you £1500 to raid the options list and pick some cool stuff.
1.4 16v petrol engine, so not uneconomical. Ok, its a Fiat, so you may find bits fall off every so often but they should not cost much to stick back on again. And no expensive injectors or turbochargers to worry about.
Or a Fiesta but not the TDCi - the 1.25 is a great Yamaha designed engine.
|
Or a Fiesta but not the TDCi - the 1.25 is a great Yamaha designed engine.
Indeed it is, but it won't be economical enough for Stu, i speak from experience, I never got more than 35mpg but then i did "drive it on the door handles" ;-)
Blue
|
|
Oh come on, if I can eek 39.7mpg from a 3.0 24v Inline Six I'm sure he can manage excellent economy from a 1.25 petrol!
|
Oh come on if I can eek 39.7mpg from a 3.0 24v Inline Six I'm sure he can manage excellent economy from a 1.25 petrol!
Yeah, but that's on a motorway at 56.66666 mph I've no doubt, I only ever managed about 40mpg on the motorway as I had to rev it's little breasts off.
Blue
|
Yeah but that's on a motorway at 56.66666 mph I've no doubt I only ever managed about 40mpg on the motorway as I had to rev it's little breasts off.
It was actually from Exeter to York at a GPS verified 70mph the whole way, save for some slow traffic on the M42.
Now, I wonder which driving style is closest to that of the OP, yours or mine ;)
|
|
|
|
Actually don't Fiat do a pretty good 1.3 diesel in the Panda?
Blue
|
Actually don't Fiat do a pretty good 1.3 diesel in the Panda?
Yes - its the same engine as the one in the Swift. My concern for it would be longevity. Is it really going to last 15 years without major expense?
|
Dunno but I bet it gets *lots* more MPG under all circumstances than the 1.4 16v.
Anyway, I'm off to bed now, I need to get up in the morning that little bit earlier, my mate has texted me to advise that she can't take me to pick up my rent-a-banger, looks like I may have to don some gloves and travel by... Metro. Spit. I've tried so hard to avoid it too, I always feel like a failure when I resort to things like this.
Blue
|
|
|
|
|
|
Stu
you are putting too many conditions on your purchase. Makes it too hard to choose.
15- 20 years? No small £10k car on the market today is going to last 15 years ( at 15k a year this is 225k miles) Sorry mate aint gonna happen without major surgery.
Diesel? with diesel currently running 6 p litre above petrol, 15k a year is not enought to make a diesel significantly cheaper to run.
Life changes, In 10 years anything could have happened.
So take your 10 grand, buy any car you like at that price with a veiw to what its going to cost you over the next 5-7 years or 100k miles
------
< Ulla>
|
Technology [energy-efficiency as much as anything] will change so fast that combustion engines may well be as rare as smokers in 10 years, and could well be banned, so I certainly wouldn't buy with long term ownership in mind.
If you drove a 20 year old car today you may find yourself preferring one designed last week.
|
Stu, if you really, really, want to keep a car for 15 or 20 years, you need to think about Irv Gordon.
www.honestjohn.co.uk/faq/faq.htm?id=34
His first rule was "start with a car you like." He did, and his Volvo is now 40 years old and has done 2,600,000 miles. For him, buying a car he liked meant going above his budget - he borrowed to buy. 40 years on, he still loves his car, and has no interest in changing it.
So my advice is: take your time, look at everything in your price bracket, and even at cars a little above your price bracket. Choose something you really like. And just hope some idiot doesn't run into it.
|
Land Rover Defender ? Not that you'd get a new one but it'll still do the 20 years and more.
I saw my old 1982 "90" parked up the other day. Looked fairly much as I remember it when I sold it in '94. They sort of reach a level of scruffiness and then just stay there. ( bit like me really ! )
|
|
|
The thought of driving the same car today that I was driving in 1987 fills me with horror. No airbags, no cd, no cruise, no aircon, no auto lights, auto wipers, leccy seats, heated seats, memory seats, memory mirrors, trip computer, crumple zones.
Why miss out on all the innovations of the next 20 years? Dreadful idea if you ask me. Like an automotive prison sentence.
Might work if the car you start off with is a top of the range Jag, BMW, Audi, Lexus but your budget is about 60k short.
|
I'd get a new Corsa.
After £1k off from the GM Card the 1.4 Design that caught SWMBO's eye cost less £10k new. It's easily big enough for 4 adults, nippy around town and crusies on motorways well and is IMHO a far better drive than the Jazz,Yaris and Aygos that I've driven recently.
Build quality is good, cheap to insure and should be cheap and easy to maintain. At that mileage can't see the point of a diesel.
|
I'd get a new Corsa. At that mileage can't see the point of a diesel...
... but if you want diesel, the 1.3 diesel with 5 doors comes in at about £9500 at drivethedeal.
Yaris 5 door diesel comes in at £10,114. The back seat in the Yaris slides back and forth, which makes it potentially quite roomy in the back.
|
Apologies for skimming through the thread. But if:
1. It has to be a diesel
2. It has to have a long warranty in order
3. You are keeping for maybe 15 years so depreciation not quite so relevant
4. It has to be new
5. the badge unimportant
Then if you could get a deal on a Kia C'eed you'd have 7 years or 100,000 miles warranty and quite a decent car. Ttrouble is the OTR price is more like £13k.
I wonder how long any of the common rail injection systems from any manufacturer will last even when properly fuelled and maintained though...
|
|
Stu, That 1.3 fiat diesel in the Suzuki, Corsa,Panda, Doblo, won the engine of the year a couple of years ago beating all the so called`quality`competition.
Over 150,000 miles there are only filters and oil to change on the engine, no cambelt its chain.
I think a Fiat doblo with the 1.3 multijet would meet your needs and can be bought under £10,000.
The 1.3 multijet is slower than the bigger (cambelted) diesels on the Doblo, but is a little more economical and you have that great peace of mind of no cambelt.
I have a Punto van with the 1.3 Multijet and can recommend the engine. I can get 78mpg between Leeds and the East coast at just under 60MPH. Typically I get around 67mpg ignoring driving for economy.
Alternatively,I bet you could get that in a 1.3 Multijet Panda as the vehicles are similar weight. (£6,300 web dealer) if economy is paramount
Regards
Edited by oilrag on 08/12/2007 at 12:34
|
Stu That 1.3 fiat diesel in the Suzuki Corsa Panda Doblo won the engine of the year a couple of years ago beating all the so called`quality`competition.
XXX of the year has nothing to do with quality and longevity as the numerous Car of the Year victories for junk like the Fiat Brava should tell you.
|
Save up an extra £2495 and buy a new Subaru Impreza 1.5R - that should make a good, if slow, long term proposition.
If it has to be diesel you should be looking for something low tech IMO
|
I think at the moment the Suzuki is still the favorite as it is mildly interesting but also my local dealer is superb and I always enjoy the customer experience with them as did my sister when she bought her car from them.
I think it is sad that modern diesels seem to have lost their durability as it was one of the reasons people always chose them when I was a kid. I do hear what many of you are saying about the lifespan of CR's, its why I wanted to ask the question really as id heard the odd thing about VAG diesels and TDCI's but as Im not an owner, ive never really read the horror stories.
When I say id like to keep it for 15 years, what I really mean is to keep it indefinatly, but id expect it to last ten years absolute minimum without any major failures, which is why its so important to buy from a maker known for reliability beyond the warranty period.
I am thinking that a slightly less economical petrol may perhaps be a better option for longevity although id still expect mid 50's mpg.
Nobody has mentioned the Daihatsu Sirion which seems to get reasonable reviews? Is it a lil boring for the BR?
I was thinking today and please dont shoot me, but what was the last of the line Corolla like in diesel form? A customer of mine has a petrol 3dr with all the toys and I think it is a fabulously nice car. Id only consider a used car if it was near-on bullit proof reliability record.
|
We're about to replace a 1998 Corolla. It's done a bit more than 80,000 miles, and it's not had a hard life, but it still feels almost as good as when we bought it new.
Auris?
|
If you'd have said Alfa, fair enough........................... it's fair enough if you want 15 years of repair bills and breakdowns.
Youv'e ben listening to Clarkson too much - all that carp about cars having soul and personality - get a grip !
Unfortunatley I can't share groovy's enthusiasm for the Auris or Corolla - we have one and it has more rattles than my daughters toy chest.
My brother works on the line in Burnaston and to his credit he is passionate about what he does - but even he gets a tad embarrassed when he is out in our Corolla. He got in the back the other day and handed me another peice of trim that fell off.
To be fair stu - I think your going to have to compromise in some area with your requirments or wait for a Jazz diesel.
|
I guess costs are the most important, which encompasses reliability aswell.
Then adequate space.
Thanks for the heads-up on the Corolla! What a shame given how solid the earlier ones were.
|
One additional point on the Corolla - my one is a Japanese built model (53) and not a Burnaston - I personally would avoid them but if you do go down that route you will clearly test drive before - but this site does contain alot of references to rattly Toyota's from different owners.
I am getting repatative but I did get the opportunity to drive my accord, a Civic and a Jazz in the same day and the thing that I observed was the consistencey of how all the cars felt very well engineered - all the controls on all of them had the well oiled precision that Honda have become know for. I thought at the time that they all had that 'last for a lifetime' feel about them.
I appreciate I do challenge the VW owners a little too much in my posts but when I drive my FiL's Passat the controls and gearchange etc all feel loose, sloppy and very noisey in comaprison to the Accord.
|
This topic certainly seems to have generated some interest!
The problem with any 'modern' Diesel is the number of components and their complexity. Its not just the high-pressure CR system (which cannot be worked on DIY, and not by most garages) its also the turbo and the dual-mass flywheel.
Turbo's have got a lot more complicated - they are no longer simple wastegate affairs, but are now mosly variable-geometry (e.g. VNT) types. So even if the turbo bearings etc last the course, there is the prospect of a problem with the vanes sooting up and sticking or some problem with the control system.
Dual mass flywheel is another pain the backside.
IMHO a CR Diesel makes good sense if you are cruising the A-roads and motorways all day, doing 25k+ per year for 3-4 years. Most of the components will stay sweet and you'll make good savings vs a petrol engine.
The case is much less clear cut if you want a family hack doing average miles. Short journeys in urban/suburban driving will take their toll on the mechanicals, especially parts like the DMF, and the fuel saving at more modest mileages makes the economics less compelling.
Depreciation is another problem in that at 8+ years old any significant repair (CR injector replacement, recon turbo, clutch/DMF change) is likely to be 50%+ of the value of the car. It then becomes hard to justify fixing the thing and you'll be tempted to bail out.
Personally I wouldn't go for a Diesel. A petrol is much simpler and more repairable in its old age. Most backstreet garages will be able to fix a petrol car and you can DIY if so inclined.
Further back the Subaru Impreza wagon was mentioned. Not a bad idea. There were 1.5R's kicking around discounted to £10k a few months back - full list was only £12.5k.
Better still you might be able to find a 2.0R or RX wagon as a pre-reg or ex-demo. These are tough cars - popular with the Aussies and rural Americans because they can take a lot of hard use. The chassis and drivetrain is very strong and reliable (eseentailly the same as that used in the turbo models - so well under-stressed). About the only thing that is known to fail is the rear wheel bearings. The motors tend to go on and on as well (I think on the US website they quote the fact that some enormous percentage of Subaru's sold in the US over the last 20 years are still on the road..). Servicing and repair work is actually pretty straightforward and any decent independent can do the work.
Fuel economy is not brilliant, but you should easily break the 30mpg barrier on mixed driving with the latest 2.0's, probably 35-38mpg in rural driving.
|
I do like the Subaru idea BUT the economy is even worse than my van and I find that expensive.
Is there a new Justy in the pipeline?
I think I need something that can get atleast 45-50 mpg really, pref a tad more.
Id like something with the Subaru's engineering just not the running costs as I genuinely cannot afford 35 mpg on a regular basis as Im used to in excess of 50 from my Rover which is just about affordable.
I am certainly going off the idea of a diesel right now and hoping that there are some frugal petrols that will offer lower overall costs. Only problem is I do like torque bias engines which was why I was drawn to diesels.
|
|
Surely, the other options with repair costs included will cost more per mile after repairs than say a subaru?
|
Justy is made for Subaru by Suzuki.
To be honest I can't think of anything that fully meets your requirements.
If you must go the Diesel route than a VAG PD is probably the best long-term proposition.
|
|
I was just reading about it, looks like a good option and I will pop into my Subaru dealer tomorrow, see if they have one in.
|
Be aware of Subaru parts costs though I have just paid £287.96 + VAT for the mid section of a Legacy exhuast, not inc labour.
That is the only unexpected cost I've had in two years and 36k miles with my Legacy and it was my own silly fault for damaging it in the first place.
|
Be aware of Subaru parts costs though I have just paid £287.96 + VAT for the mid section of a Legacy exhuast not inc labour.
Yes, parts are not cheap, although they do tend to reduce prices for the older vehicles. TBH though I don't think it would have been much cheaper for any other car of similar size, not for an OE part, anyway. Honda and Toyota parts are particularly expensive and Mitsubishi parts can be pretty shocking.
On many cars now it can be cheaper to have a custom stainless steel system made up than buy the OE exhaust part.
The OE parts on most Jap cars last a long time and so it can be quite a few years before the afterpart companies take an interest in supplying...
|
The OE parts on most Jap cars last a long time and so it can be quite a few years before the afterpart companies take an interest in supplying...
This is true. When I sold my last legacy at 6 years old and 135k miles the original back box outer skin was just beginning to go. I had asked around but no pattern parts existed. IIRC the Subaru part was around £120. Still, if it lasts 6 years it's probably cheaper in the long run than a fastfit box that lasts one month longer than the guarantee.
|
>> This is true. When I sold my last legacy at 6 years old and 135k miles the original back box outer skin was just beginning to go. I had asked around but no pattern parts existed. IIRC the Subaru part was around £120.
I have seen Subaru's at 10 years with the original system. Recently did a bit of work on a 1995 Mitsi FTO and it still had the original system - not in bad shape either! The owner could hear a rattle and thought the cat was breaking up - but I found a nut was missing off the heat shield - put a new one on all quiet again!
A Legacy back box at £120 for OE is not too bad actually. Its a fairly substantial item and would probably cost 2/3 that for a poorer quality fast-fit part......if you could get one.
|
and I was quoted, in writing, and had it verbally quoted ( with a straight face) £845 for a 2000 1.3 Yaris CDX exhaust system.
I did manage to keep a straight face when told ;-)
|
>>It must be big enough to cope with family life at a stretch ( 2 kids ).
A Subaru Justy?
Not just the car seats Stu, the buggy, the cot, factor in packing the full set of paraphernalia options included with kids.... No chance. I reckon the minimum to preserve sanity is Focus, Astra size, anything smaller and your kids will be kicking the back of your seat on every journey from day one. BTW re your comment about not expecting your kids to be much bigger than you - my dad is 5'7" my mum 5'5" and I'm 6'1" same as my bro and my sis is 5'9".
|
Personally I'd stick with what I know. Call it £8000 to take away the costs of the Rover overhaul, and spend that on fuel, insurance, servicing MoT's and tax for both vehicles.
Maybe set aside some for any repair work needed.
|
My ex gf had two children, buggy, child seats and three bags of 'stuff' fit in her Ford Ka, so in a larger car, Im sure id manage.
This car wont be used primarily as family transport, just for long journeys over an hour where the Rovers age makes it hard to trust, maybe once of twice a month.
Honestly, I really dont want something as big as a Focus and the kids wont get any sweets if they kick daddys seat.
I only earn £800 a month so those little savings by not running a bigger car do make a difference to me, I know they seem small to those who earn much more, but from my perspective, every penny counts.
|
Is the Justy galvanised though?
That was one of my own pre-requisites for long term ownership (very similar aims as you) also hydraulic tappets and no cambelt.
I also wanted access to lots of parts in scrapyards as the years went by, so a `popular` model too.
Regards
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
