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The number of times I have read this it must be time for Watchdog to be bombarded with e-mails. Poor quality diesel is an absoulte load of cobblers. All diesel in the UK is made to a specific standard. I'd be asking Ford where I can buy 'high quality' diesel.
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This link might be on interest to Dr Duffy: www.licroc.org/Tech%20Articles/diesel%20fuel.pdf
Bosch position (in 2003) on lubricity. EN 590 should be adequate, as it addresses wear rates, one assumes.
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I have been involved in UK diesel fuel testing, admittedly a while ago and it was found to be not possible to buy (retail) any fuel in the UK which did not meet the majority of the standards laid down in EN 590. I cannot recall any lubricity non compliances at all.
Perhaps Ford could tell us how this "contaminated" fuel is burnt in other diesel engines in the UK.
659.
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>>This link might be on interest to Dr Duffy
I found it rather good too - thanks for posting it up.
Number_Cruncher
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Cheers. I should credit TDI Club, where I got the link.
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Well Nortones2 that makes interesting reading especially the last but one page, so those running on cooking oil will get there cumupance sooner or later. Clearly explains how CR pumps are sensative to fuel oil!
Well done
Doc
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>>>Sell it - today. Don't buy any other diesel.
I do not agree with you Screwloose. Thousands of lorries, buses, tractors and millions of cars are diesel fuelled and common railed. The vast majority go perfectly well for thousands of miles or hours.
It would seem from reading many posts that Ford have a problem. I have a diesel Passat and a diesel Focus and have had no problems with the engines. I usually use Shell diesel, perhaps this is why.
Having had 2 diesel cars, I would not go back to petrol cars. I like going for 600 miles between filling up too much and I like the way they drive.
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.*********
Doc
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Bus and truck CR Diesel systems are made to a far higher standard (and price!) than passenger car systems.
I gather that many traders are now becoming very suspicious of Diesel trade-ins. There are far too many faulty ones being dumped into auctions and off-loaded.
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Well aprilla I ain't suprised when so many keep topping up with veg oil or using incorrect engine oil & the most popular one milage intervals getting stretched well over the limit & buying the cheapest derv for their 2nd most expensive purchase inlife!
Doc
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Well, I have a friend who has run his own independent workshop for many years and for the last few has specialised in repairing Diesel cars (because its far more profitable!).
He tells me he has seen very few, if any, with fuel contamination although 'fuel contamination' is often a what the customer is told by a dealer who can't fix the car. UK retail fuel, wherever purchased, is of a very high standard and not many people are using veg oil with CR Diesels.
He sees lots of cars with DMF's breaking up, duff injectors and pumps. Many arrive at his workshop with owners having spent £100's or £1000's at main dealers and no fix for the problem. As manufacturers increase the complexity of these engines they are moving well beyond the diagnostic and repair capability of most technicians.
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Bus and truck CR Diesel systems are made to a far higher standard (and price!) than passenger car systems.
Not really they are just bigger versions ...they are all either Bosch or Delphi and generally are bigger but they still fail just the same. I find the generally most of the components on cars are things like nylon or plastic rather than steel. to keep weight and price down.
But Trucks have been going the same way as cars for a while a smaller capacity and higher BHP
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I agree with quizman, I have covered countless miles in CR diesels ( up to 70,000 a year at one point) & have used 2.0 & 2.2TDCI & 1.4 & 1.6tdci all ford/psa units . The 2.0 & 2.2 being in the Jag x-type & all I have experienced was one injector lost its coding which made it run a little rough at low speed but a recode was all it needed. I have towed a large TA caravan around europe up & down the alps & Pyrinesse with no problem but have always used BP fuel only ( as recommended in the handbook ) & I keep every reciept just in case fuel ever becomes an issue!. I am convinced there is more of an issue with supermarket fuels than will ever be revealed. Treat a diesel with respect & it returns it with wonderful touque, relaxed driving & very few fuel stops.I won't go back to petrol no-way! & as for those cheap skates who top up with cooking oil & boast how there is no difference there time will come!, or some other poor bu..er who buys it after them!
Doc
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All diesel fuel sold in the UK has to meet EN590. Some fuel may surpass that standard.
If car manufacturers build engines which REQUIRE a higher standard than EN590 then surely that should be made clear in conditions of sale and warranty conditions.
Presumably cooking oil doesn't meet EN590, if only because it hasn't been tested, so manufacturers would surely be within their rights not to meet warranty claims where it's been used.
I just don't see how the use of supermarket fuel, meeting EN590, can be used to avoid liability.
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I wonder how many of the affected cars have been filled with petrol and run until they broke down?
I know there's controversy over how much damage petrol really does but the main breakdown services attended 100,000 misfueling calls last year, and there must be many others that don't get reported.
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Doc, surely the recommendation to use BP fuel is purely a commercial agreement between Ford and BP and in no way is saying that their engine will only run on BP as BP is totally unique from any other fuel?
I am sure there are plenty of people, lease companies, who can vouch for hassle free motoring from supermarket fuels? Not least all the Supermarket employees who have lease cars and must fill up at their own PFS !
--
2007 Seat Altea XL 2.0 TDI (140) Stylance
2005 Skoda Fabia vrS
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In my Merc C270CDi I can't tell any difference in performance or noise between any of the fuels available, but my best MPG figures always come from Sainsbury's City Diesel.
Edited by Bill Payer on 21/10/2007 at 20:43
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Thank you for your replies.
I have done some web surfing over the weekend and it looks as though problems with modern Ford diesel engines are endemic. I am not sure where this leaves me. The dealer insists that the problem is mine. I called Ford Customer Services (an oxymoron, if ever there was one) this morning but they tell me the matter is between myself and the dealer. Unfortunately I am not in a position to sell the car, although I would dearly like to, because of the tremendous depreciation that Mondeos suffer. I would lose a lot more than the £1800 cost of repair. I will certainly avoid Fords, and probably any diesel engine, in future.
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Have you had since new? I have more to comment if not.
My Mondeo today went off on a low-loader with it's replacement delivered. Apart from one EGR related breakdown it never actually let me down. First EGR failure produced lots of smoke and had loss of power but never stopped running.
I actually found it more reliable problem wise than the previous VW Passat which had lots more go wrong even from leaving the dealership when brand new - a PDI should have picked up those problems which resulted in new turbo (petrol mind) and gearbox! It also drove a lot better too.
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Hi, sorry to hear of your grief, the back rooms seem to be swamped with unhappy Derv owners at the moment. This problem seems to be growing and it mostly seems to be with Ford.
I can suggest the best course of action would be to have the car inspected and obtain a written report, I don't mean by another garage but by an engineer who can provide a report submissable in court. You would also be advised to contact your local TS office, might be worth doing this now, they might offer to talk to the dealer on your behalf.
Have they provided any evidence to support their claim of faulty fuel?
Let us know how you get on.
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In my Merc C270CDi I can't tell any difference in performance or noise between any of the fuels available but my best MPG figures always come from Sainsbury's City Diesel.
That would be the Same Sainsbury's diesel that comes from a BP Tanks - in a BP Truck not sure as to the levels of addertive over BP Ultimate but it's got chain of integrity which is the important bit.
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I was talking to a work colleague over lunch today who is going through something similar with his 2006 ST TDCi, with Ford blaming fuel contamination.
He's taking legal advice at the moment, but has been staggered by the number of other identical cases he's found. This really does appear to be a standard "excuse" wheeled out in response to owner complaints. I'm not a betting man, but knowing this guy I would put good money on the car having never been misfuelled.
Thinking about it, the cost to Ford to admit liability and issue a recall would be terrifying. According to The Times, Ford sold 48,021 Mondeos in 2006 alone. Let's be optimistic and say 50% were diesel powered (as the fleets have gone mostly diesel, the figure is probably nearer 70%) and that the cost of replacing the fuel pump on each car comes to £3,000. That's just over £72 million to fix the cars sold in 2006 alone, and the TDCi mkIII has been around since 2003. It's not inconceivable that they could be looking at £300+ million to honour a full recall.
This would be such an appealing and logical choice to replace my old TD, but somehow I think having a Renault dCi and a Ford TDCi together is just pushing my luck. As my mileage is dropping off slowly, I think I will be in the fortunate position to be able to justify going petrol next time in any case.
Cheers
DP
--
04 Grand Scenic 1.9 dCi Dynamique
00 Mondeo 1.8TD LX
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This is the sort of thing that BBC's Watchdog would be interested in.
I must admit, reading these stories scares me, as I have a 2006 1.8TDCi C-Max. Though it hasn't been playing up I'm sure it's not running as smoothly as it used to, and the economy seems to be getting worse.
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Sounds like Ford's attitude has not changed in 10 years.
A colleague had injector pump trouble in a Ford Maverick diesel. Was told that he'd being using contaminated fuel and no chance of claiming under warranty.
After colleague had paid £700 in total rectification costs, he bought a mechanically identical Nissan Terrano . This had no fuel system exclusions in the warranty.
Never bought a Ford again because of the dealers attitude.
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Its nice to know that some people have good experiences with these cars, but sadly I am not one of them.
I have owned the car from new and have always filled up at busy filling stations so I am doubtful that I have used contaminated or poor quality fuel. I have never put petrol in the car.
I have spoken to the service manager this morning and they are quite determined that the car will not be repaired under warranty. Strange that they had several previous attempts under the warranty! My feeling is that the technicians are insufficiently trained to work on these cars and having poked about with it a few times they have decided to give up and let me bear the cost of fitting all new parts in the hope that it will be fixed.
I have called an independent diesel workshop with a view to getting a second opinion. They are quoting £200-300 for investigation depending on what they find. Does this seem reasonable? Will the execution of the investigation work itself enable the dealer to escape his warranty obligations on the basis that it has been worked on by an non-Ford workshop?
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If your car is still under warranty, why not try another Ford dealer in the first instance before shelling out yourself. Some seem to be better at others when it come to tackling complex problems like your car seems to have.
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I have owned the car from new..
It might be worth trying something like WhatCar help desk. It always hacks me off that consumers have struggled for months and the press/media step in and there's instant resolution. WatchDog may be useful, but I think they're pretty slow to act and need to see substantial numbers of complaints.
As it's less than 2yrs old /20K miles, and if you have the stomach for it, then it might be worth taking legal advice - perhaps you have legal cover on car or home insurance - on the basis of the car not being of merchantable quality? You would need to take action against the original supplier. If nothing else, it should spur the dealer into action.
I guess, though, that they might just turn up in court with an engineers report saying the car had been run on contaminated fuel.
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The OP is in a difficult situation here. It seems he has to prove a negative.
Probably has a good case, but if the car is not running right and you need a car then writing to Watchdog, involving TS, solicitors etc etc can be a painful slow way of resolving things.
If an independent Diesel specialist starts taking the system apart to undertake diagnostics then Ford dealer may claim they are not trained etc etc and have caused damage.
To be honest I am a bit stumped as to what the best way forward would be..........
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If contaminated fuel could be classed as accidental damage, could you claim on your car insurance?
Doc
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If contaminated fuel could be classed as accidental damage could you claim on your car insurance? Doc
You used to be able to at one time, the same as you could for driving through flood water, but a lot of insurance companies won't pay out for either now.
-----------------------------------------------
2005 Ford Mondeo Zetec 2.0 TDCi 130ps
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I feel for Dr Duffy, no-one who's paid good money for a car should be told that any future repair/replacement of a failed component won't be covered by warranty.
This problem is obviously caused by Ford's position - given the frightening numbers of other TDCi with a similar problem is it a design problem which affects other manufacturers' engines?
Is the 2006 2.0TDCi of Dr Duffy the same engine as the 2008 2.0TDCi? Indeed is it essentially the same engine as the 2.2 collaborative engine used in Freelander, Peugeot and Citroens?
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The new Mondeo uses the PSA-Ford co-developed unit and not the old Ford Duratorq one (derived from the transit engine).
The new 2.2 diesel engine again is a PSA-Ford one as opposed to the 2.2 TDCi in the previous Mondeo in Ghia and ST spec.
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But Ford fit their own fuel systems to their "own" engines.
659.
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I dont buy into the conspiracy theory or that more than an average number of cars are effected because they are so numerous and most give great service.
However if the car is under warranty and has been serviced correctly the onus should be on the dealer to prove misfueling / neglect. So on face value the dealer is out of order and if Ford will not intervene (I have had excellent service from Ford Customer services in the past) then small claims court or a solicitor might be the next step.
How did the OP get on?
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I dont buy into the conspiracy theory or that more than an average number of cars are effected because they are so numerous and most give great service.
I have now had my car looked at by two independent diesel specialists and garnered much useful information. From the information I am uncovering it appears that these diesel cars are significantly less reliable than their petrol counterparts and relatively large numbers of owners are experiencing problems with this design of engine.
However if the car is under warranty and has been serviced correctly the onus should be on the dealer to prove misfueling / neglect. So on face value the dealer is out of order and if Ford will not intervene (I have had excellent service from Ford Customer services in the past) then small claims court or a solicitor might be the next step.
Ford customer services are a joke and their remit is to obfuscate and protect Ford and Ford dealer interests.
I am now in the process of taking legal action against the dealer, so I don't want to say more than that.
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relatively large numbers of owners are experiencing problems with this design of engine. >>
As I said before I dont think that a more than an average number of cars are effected because they are so numerous, this is supported by Warranty Direct etc stats. Also if you Google TDCi problems you get this site indicating that the problems reported on this site are beacuse those with problems gravitate to a site like this. The silent majority are those with no problems.>>
Ford customer services are a joke >>
Honestly not in my experience, the service I received was exemplary and meant that what started as a problem lead to my faith in Ford being strengthened. Have you written as opposed to phoned? Many CC depts have jobsworth oiks on the phone and empowered people addressing letters. It was a letter that did it for me.
I am now in the process of taking legal action against the dealer so I don't want to say more than that. >>
Fair enough, best of luck.
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As I said before I dont think that a more than an average number of cars are effected because they are so numerous this is supported by Warranty Direct etc
Clearly you like these cars. Even the service manager at the Ford dealer told me that they are more troublesome and difficult to fix than the petrol engine models.
>> Ford customer services are a joke >> Honestly not in my experience the service I received was exemplary and meant that what started as a problem lead to my faith in Ford being strengthened. Have you written as opposed to phoned? Many CC depts have jobsworth oiks on the phone and empowered people addressing letters. It was a letter that did it for me.
Yes, I have sent two letters to Ford customer services and one to Ford UK HQ. I have made numerous telephone calls. As I said before, the main function of the customer services is protecting Ford interests, not those of the customer. Their position is that there is nothing they can do and that the dealer knows best.
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Clearly you like these cars. >>
Well I have had mine from new, 123,000 miles in 5 years very few problems, only fuel system issue was one injector needing reprogamming at 70k ish miles which, despite being out of warranty, was done as goodwill by the dealer. It has saved me £4,000 to £5,000 in fuel costs over my previous petrol car and over £1000 in respect of not needing cambelt changes compared to a VW etc. So not much to complain about.
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So, you got a good one. The hallmark of a product worth buying is uniformity of quality.
The acid test of an organisation is the backup it provides when there's a problem.
If either (or both) criteria are not met, pay the money elsewhere.
659.
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"But Ford fit their own fuel systems to their "own" engines"
I thought Ford fitted Delphi fuel systems to the Ford TDCi engines. And therefore they are not the only ones using Delphi Common Rail fuelling systems. Probably not the best but how do these fare in other marques vehicles?
No idea what the Ford/PSA diesels use.
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Renault use Delphi injection systems on the 1.5 dCi engine, and fuel system failure on these is very rare as far as I know. It has EGR valve issues, but this isn't related to the common rail fuel system.
Certainly my last employer ran a fleet of 1.5 dCi Meganes and all were mechanically very reliable over the usual 3 yr / 60-100k fleet stint.
The 1.9 fitted to our Scenic uses a Bosch setup.
Cheers
DP
--
04 Grand Scenic 1.9 dCi Dynamique
00 Mondeo 1.8TD LX
Edited by DP on 06/11/2007 at 16:08
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& as for those cheap skates who top up with cooking oil & boast how there is no difference there time will come!
'Zzz'. That is your third post in this thread that has mentioned veg oil users in a bad way. Hardly anyone uses veg oil in a CR or modern diesel! Most of us "cheap skates" who are "boasting" about using veg oil are using it in old bangers and taking *calculated risks*. Give us some credit at least.
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