FWIW that stretch of road was until recently a 70mph zone: ...The road is wide fast of motorway standard 3 lanes woide and 82mph is not an outlandish speed.
There are a lot of speed limits which are a little surprising. There is some motorway around Glasgow with a 50 mph limit - which at first sight seems odd, since it is a good wide bit of motorway, often without much traffic. I'm sure there's a reason for the limit, but a lot of the time there would be nothing dangerous about doing at 80 mph on it.
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Tyro, if you mean the M77 then I believe that the speed limit was put at 50 mph for perceived noise reduction reasons?
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2007 Seat Altea XL 2.0 TDI (140) Stylance
2005 Skoda Fabia vrS
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Tyro if you mean the M77 then I believe that the speed limit was put at 50 mph for perceived noise reduction reasons?
Amazing then that you can be fined for doing 70mph on a Motorway where the limit is only 50 for environmental reasons.. pathetic it really is.
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Amazing then that you can be fined for doing 70mph on a Motorway where the limit is only 50 for environmental reasons.. pathetic it really is.
How so?
Are you saying that there should be no penalty for breaking the law put in place to protect the residents?
I'm sure you live somewhere leafy, but perhaps the people subject to motorway noise deserve a little consideration.
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It just seems a shame you can have points put on your license for driving at a 100% safe speed which would be legal everywhere else were it not for moaning residents who almost certainly moved in after the Motorway was built.
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It just seems a shame you can have points put on your license for driving at a 100% safe speed which would be legal everywhere else were it not for moaning residents who almost certainly moved in after the Motorway was built.
I must say I agree.
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There are two issues with speed cameras:
1/ They are a 500th sec snapshot in time persecuting often minor transgressions when the drunk, drugged up, uninsured, bald tyres etc etc get away with it.
2/ As per my wife's case earlier this year where she could not be totally 100% sure that she was driving, I really belive that the authorities should be obliged to provide evidence proving who was driving before a procecution can succeed.
OK, someone was doing 80 in a 50 should not be condoned however if that was a piece of dual carriageway at 6.00am on a summer Sunday moring and it was Mr Flat-Broke-Hardworking-Honest-Fellow-Family-Man on his way home from a night shift in his 15 year old Cav then he would incriminate himself despite there being no evidence proving that it was him driving, and be fined £60 he couldn't afford plus take on a an increase in insurance premiums.
Where as Mr Celeb employs an costly lawyer etc.
The system is flawed, it is flawed for all, it needs to change.
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Has Nick Freeman ever lost a case ?.
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Has Nick Freeman ever lost a case ?.
A good number.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Freeman#Clients
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Hear, hear ched
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C4, MX5, Cee\'d
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Where as Mr Celeb employs an costly lawyer etc. The system is flawed it is flawed for all it needs to change.
When it is seemingly so easy for the rich to get off, then yes it is flawed.
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When it is seemingly so easy for the rich to get off then yes it is flawed.
To be fair, that would happen whether the offence were recorded by camera or traffic officer (all six of them!), it's just that the traffic officer would probably quash it at the roadside rather than trigger an automated court summons.
I recall the uproar back in 2002 when I lived near Heathrow. Prince Andrew had been pulled by a traffic cop just outside the airport for doing 60 in a 40. He was let off and allowed to go on his way. The paper then ran another piece a week later with half a dozen "peasants" who had been caught for similar offences on the same stretch of road in the same week, and had the book thrown at them.
How many traffic officers and chief constables have had speeding convictions quashed in recent years that would have had us ordinary folk lose everything through lengthy bans and even jail sentences.
It is one of the fundamental facts about the UK (and probably most other countries) that celebrity status, financial status and "who you know" can get you out of most situations relating to the law. It's an unfortunate fact of life!
Cheers
DP
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04 Grand Scenic 1.9 dCi Dynamique
00 Mondeo 1.8TD LX
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For the offence of speeding detected by camera then to get information as to who the driver was the authorities have to rely on Section 172 Road Traffic Act 1988 which states
Where the driver of a vehicle is alleged to be guilty of an offence?
2(a) the person keeping the vehicle shall give such information as to the identity of the driver as he may be required to give by or on behalf of a chief officer of police.
In the case of a Hired or loan car then the Reg keeper complies and discharges his liability by naming the next person down the line i.e. Clarkson as the person in charge of the vehicle but not necesssarily the driver , or uses the defence under the Section:
A person who fails to comply with the requirement of subsection (2)(a) above is guilty of an offence unless he shows to the satisfaction of the court that he did not know and could not with reasonable diligence have ascertained who the driver of the vehicle was .
Having obtained from the Keeper of the vehicle the information that Clarkson had the vehicle, but no information that he had been the driver, a further sub section of 172 is used:
2(b) any other person shall if required as stated above give any information which it is in his power to give and may lead to identification of the driver.
A person who fails to comply with the requirement of subsection (2)(b) above is guilty of an offence.
It will be noted that the defence under 2(a) is not repeated in a 2 (b) request so it would appear one cannot rely on did not know/could not ascertain who the driver was.
Whilst not being privy to full report of Freemans defence, must have been the (2)(a) defence which does not apply to 2(b) offence and in usual style has bamboozled the bench. He came to our local Court some time ago and defended a female on drink drive and got her off on an alleged procedural technicallity. Resulting from that, I heard, an internal enquiry was held, higher legal advice sought and police procedure found not wanting.
Sad that hard cash, often beyond the means on normal men, can affect the Justice system.
dvd
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Sad that hard cash often beyond the means on normal men can affect the Justice system. dvd
Very much the British way I'm afraid. We have the best justice system that money can buy.
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Sad that hard cash often beyond the means on normal men can affect the Justice system.
As has been pointed out on many occasions, those who are very rich have a certain advantage, those who are poor enough to get legal aid also have an advantage, those who are in the middle are thus often disadvantaged.
To be honest, this whole issue is not just a British problem - it is a problem in most countries in one way or another, and while there are some ways to alleviate the problem, there is a limit to what can be done about it. Some flaws will always remain - and trying to remove every single flaw will probably create more problems than in solves.
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Perhaps a lie-detector could be employed! Why on earth did the CPS pursue the case if it wasn't watertight?
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"no information that he had been the driver"
Isn't there a photo? He shouldn't be difficult to spot!
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Why did the Queen build Windsor Castle so close to Heathrow Airport then?
BTW for you Sassenachs, the M77 was bult very recently.
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were it not for moaning residents who almost certainly moved in after the Motorway was built.
So long as you're OK where you live, eh?
Speed limits for environmental reasons are entirely sensible and common in other countries too. In Germany a lot of urban Autobahn have low speed limits for noise pollution reasons (the signs say 'laermschutz' - noise protection).
Is it just me or do modern-day selfish attitudes leave others speechless too? No wonder this country is suffering social breakdown.
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were it not for moaning residents who almost certainly moved in after the Motorway was built. Is it just me or do modern-day selfish attitudes leave others speechless too? No wonder this country is suffering social breakdown.
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The point Michael R was making and I agree with is like that of people who move in near to an airport and then complain about the noise.
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Speed limits for environmental reasons are entirely sensible and common in other countries too. In Germany a lot of urban Autobahn have low speed limits for noise pollution reasons (the signs say 'laermschutz' - noise protection).
This is usually between a reasonable 10pm and 6am so it does not cause commuter congestion.
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Is it just me or do modern-day selfish attitudes leave others speechless too? No wonder this country is suffering social breakdown.
No, it's not just you - I am agog also. The same mentality as self-centred, anti-social types who park in the disabled spaces to go to the cash machine at Tesco.
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Yes, because every car makes the same amount of noise doesn't it? Jeez.... in the words of Stewie the baby "Do you listen to yourself when you speak?". : )
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Bobby
Yes, I meant the M77 & M80. I did realise that it was something environmental - I just couldn't remember whether it was noise or emissions.
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Sad that hard cash often beyond the means on normal men can affect the Justice system.
To the contrary is is the justice system that is flawed requiring people to incriminate themselves rather than being obliged to provide evidence proving who was driving before a procecution can succeed.
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STOP PRESS
Just read a report elsewhere that the case did not kick off.
CPS pulled out before the ball was kicked.
Problem, pointed out before hand in pre case chat Freeman/CPS, with forms.
Looks as if CPS relied on 172 from Alpha to prove Clarkson driver which is not evidence.
Legal profession cock up PU ?....again
dvd
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>>Looks as if CPS relied on 172 from Alpha to prove Clarkson driver which is not evidence.>>
So hypothetically the CPS couldnt rely on a 172 from your wife to prove that you were driving her car cos that wouldnt be evidence either then?
Flawed, I say flawed, or perhaps that should be floored!
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Nothing the CPS do surprises me these days!
Just had a prosecution file returned to me....full admission from three defendants...six independent witness statements........CPS decision NFA!!! They are a complete waste of space and universally despised by Police Officers!
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In fairness to JC, he may very well have not been driving that car. He must be loaned loads of cars and wouldn't necessarily be driving them himself at all times... other drivers could be friends/family/fellow motoring journalists etc.
I can confirm the A40 in that part of London is a fast 3 laned motorway type road, where a 50 limit can seem excessively slow and it used to be a 70mph National Speed Limit.
The bottom line, as stated above is that any prosecution should PROVE someone has done something wrong, not PRESUME they have because of a number of circumstantial possibilities. In that respect Nick Freeman is absolutely correct, the case should not have got that far, it is very sloppy work.... but typical of the speeding set up in this country, which is hound the motorist regardless and hope (like the majority do) that they'll 'roll over' and cough up. Rich people can afford to employ Nick Freeman's to make sure this doesn't happen. I don't see it as rich people getting off..i see it as rich people ensuring the wheels of justice are administered properly (even if the guilty sometimes get away with things).
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The bottom line as stated above is that any prosecution should PROVE someone has done something wrong not PRESUME they have because of a number of circumstantial possibilities.
Couldn't agree more Westpig. If Plod had actually stopped him for exceeding the speed limit there would be sufficient "real" evidence to prosecute. Any convictions arising from a camera, where the driver is not clearly shown in the photo, are unsubstantiated and IMO shouldn't be prosecutable. The problem is that even the ECHR won't allow our society to operate in an "innocent until proven guilty" manor, and Police are quite happy to force confessions if it gets their £60 in the bank. Democracy at work! ;-)
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I can confirm the A40 in that part of London is a fast 3 laned motorway type road where a 50 limit can seem excessively slow and it used to be a 70mph National Speed Limit.
I can only assume they made it 50mph to slow things down further in advance of the narrowing to 2 lanes at Northolt.
However if you are going the other way, from Central London out, you will have passed through 40mph sections with traffic lights, on to 50mph, and then passing under the bridge onto what is nearly always fast, wide and empty as you head towards the M40, then 82mph would be sensible really.
Going the other way, the driver could have been over 2 miles from the real 50mph section, and in any case there's plenty of time and visibility to slow down, and outside of rush hour the road would be empty and fast anyway, even past the Target Roundabout.
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However if you are going the other way ... then 82mph would be sensible really.
A bit off subject, but where there are temporary speed limits in force (and, I am sure, on other occasions as well) it often seems that it is appropriate to have a lower speed limit in one direction than the other.
That is, if you are coming up to the obstruction (or whatever), you should be slowing down - but once you are past it, you could safely be going at the national speed limit. However but the lower limit remains in force for a few hundred yards or so, because the oncoming traffic is being slowed down at that point.
It seems that it is general practice to have the same speed limit for traffic heading on both directions on any particular stretch of road.
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Does anyone know how much Mr Freeman charges for his time?
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Does anyone know how much Mr Freeman charges for his time?
Irrelevant in this case, because Clarkson was rewarded costs. I doubt he'll come cheap though!
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surely VERY relevant ?
If Clarkson had been found guilty, he would be paying Mr Freeman, in which case, Freeman's charges are of no interest to us.
as he has been aquitted and awared costs, WE will be paying Mr Freemans fees.
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Go on, get out of the car...
www.mikes-walks.co.uk
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as he has been aquitted and awared costs WE will be paying Mr Freemans fees.
If you take that stance, WE probably pay most of Mr Freeman's fees as he does have a habit of getting defendants off on technicalities. His fees are therefore almost irrelevant if you're thinking of hiring him. If you want someone to blame for the state paying his fees, blame the current speeding system in this country - if the authorities had done their job properly in this case, we certainly wouldn't have paid Mr Freeman's fees.
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Ring ring
Hello- is that Jeremy? It's Vanessa here from Alfa PR .The thing is, we have recived a document from the police, alleging speeding, and asking who the driver was. I'm terribly sorry to bring this up, but is was from when you had one of our cars on test , so perhaps it was you?
Vanessa- how are you? About time we had lunch again.. don't the police have better things to do than persecute motorists .. anyway, I was just putting together my review of that car...
Oh, I see... well perhaps we can't remember who was driving it then , I mean, you arty types , it could have been anyone and what's more the whole thing is blank come to mention it . I'll just put don't know shall I?
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Does anyone know how much Mr Freeman charges for his time?
One of the morning papers said £10,000 a day. No wonder PU has such an exotic collection of vehicles ;>)
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....and a wife who works very hard as well, btw.
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No wonder PU has such an exotic collection of vehicles ;>)
Tool of the trade. Modern ambulances go pretty fast sometimes :o)
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Just going slightly back on topic, the M77 built in Glasgow was built against an absolute storm of protests as it involved compulsory purchases etc etc as well as greenbelts. If you look at it on a map it is easy to see that the housing areas either side of it were not always like that and the M77 carved its way through them. That is why the speed limit was imposed for noise reduction (and possibly emissions as well).
If the authorities decided to build a motorway within view of your house many years after you had moved in would you be happy?
On a similar vein, the reason the M74 stops on the outskirts of Glasgow is that its next stage is going to involve chewing up miles of currently domestic and commercial space. Personally speaking, I don't think it will ever happen, certainly not on its proposed route anyway.
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2007 Seat Altea XL 2.0 TDI (140) Stylance
2005 Skoda Fabia vrS
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I remember the M77 protests well. Since I never lived in Glasgow, it wasn't my back yard, and I didn't feel too strongly, even if it was a pity to desecrate Pollock Park. With hindsight, however, I wonder how Glasgow survived without it.
If the authorities decided to build a motorway within view of your house many years after you had moved in would you be happy?
Yes, and so would most of my neighbours. We would also be totally astonished, since the closest bit of the British motorway network is over 200 miles away. :-)
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I can only assume they made it 50mph to slow things down further in advance of the narrowing to 2 lanes at Northolt.
I often wonder why they set a particular limit. I obey non motorway speed limits on the grounds that I do not know what hazards are present. But some of the limits on local reads I know well are plain daft (low in the safe parts and high in the dangerous parts) and make me wonder if there is not a tiny little flaw in this grand scheme to make roads safe.
It would not surprise me if solicitors and barristers were hired as consultants when drafting road regulations.
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