As a diesel specialist, I'm not familiar with the finer points of the K-series but I understand that the thermostat location is fundamentally flawed.
For a thermostat to work properly, the heat sensitive wax capsule has to see water hot enough for the valve to open when required. My understanding is that on the K-series this doesn't happen and the engine can boil with the thermostat closed under some circumstances. Some die hards have produced a kit to relocate the thermostat to avoid this problem - maybe worth a look.
Purists will not approve of re-torqueing stretch head bolts but I've done this sucessfully a number of times when the signs of leakage are very slight - ie early on in the problem "cycle". It has worked on non marginal engines where the gasket firing ring relaxes slightly, reducing the preload on the bolts. I've never done this on a K-series and it probably wouldn't work on such a poorly designed engine.
I'm so glad they never tried making a diesel version.
659.
|
>>on such a poorly designed engine>>
To put this into perspective the 1.1 and 1.4 8vs units are fine, early 1.4 16vs did not suffer HGF above the norm, it was the introduction of the 1.8 that brought the HGF reputation, the 1.6 is less prevelent (though my BiL had a 1.6 400 that suffered HGF) and the 1.4 less so again.
The issue seems to be caused by a combination of a couple of points any one of which could easily be addressed.
On a related matter HJ suggests in yesterday's DT that someone could produce a kit to fit a Ford, or similar, engine to 1.8 Freelanders that seem to suffer the HGF probs above the K Series norm, perhaps someone already does this?
|
|
Not fitting a Ford engine as such but Ford developed a new head gasket for use on this engine when fitted in the Land Rover.
|
Does that mean that K series Freelanders from a certain age are HGF free?
If so is this retro fitable to early K Series?
|
|
I don't know-all I do know is that Ford spent a lot of time & money developing a new gasket.
|
I have always understood that the main cause of gasket failure on any engine is either initial incorrect torquing, or else overheating. Some engines are more robust in this respect than others, but on a known weak engine it would make sense to take excessive precautions.
Annual coolant flush and renewal, including thermostat testing or replacement, use of proper and adequate anti-corrosion additive, and having a proper temperature gauge and knowing how to interpret it.
|
Cliff, there are two other causes of gasket failure which you left off your list - bad design and poor manufacture.
The K-series has both. The liner preload, gasket compression and liner bottom location are not properly designed or toleranced, leading to firing ring fretting on the underside of the head. Their chosen gasket supplier had no experience of sealing this type of engine - they should have gone to PSA's supplier instead. The cooling system design is bad. The powertrain factory were also incapable of exercising proper quality control on material specs or dimensional tolerancing.
The rest is - as they say - is history. Engineering is a great leveller; cock-ups will always come back to get you.
659.
|
Failure prevention?
Well, replace the radiator every 4-5 years. They are cheap and nasty on Rovers and don't last long - they are very cheap however (£70 or so from my factor).
Go to Land Rover dealer and buy the new multi-layer steel gasket. The liner heights must be correct to use these however - if that's not the case then you have to use the old type gasket.
From what I hear and see, you are borrowed time once one of these engines is over 5 years old...
|
|
HGF is part and parcel of K-series ownership, just as EGR valve failure is on a Renault DCi. If you want to avoid these alarmingly common faults, don't buy a car with the engine in question. Seems the only realistic way of avoiding K-series HGF: don't buy a K-series! :-)
|
|
Taken from my earlier post re 'K' series head gasket failure. As to your comment re the manufacturer, Federal Mogul are the largest manufacturer in the world for gaskets.
Quote:
For those who need to know why this is common on 'K' series, here is the definitive answer. If you look at the head gasket for this engine, you need to look closely at the pressed in rings that circle the bores. You will see they are pushed through from the underside and then crimped over. This means that this crimping press's directly onto the head face. When the gasket fails, these 'fire rings' as the are called become loose and 'chatter' against the head causing the familiar groove which necessitates the head being skimmed.
How do I know this? I worked for rover for 15 years in Problem analysis dept and later as a Product Specialist for Unipart. I met with the guys at Federal Mogul (Payen to you) who at the time supplied these gaskets OE to Rover. There was considerable discussions about turning these fire rings over to be crimped on the side that sits on the cylinder liners (the theory being that the liner was harder than the fire ring and no damage would occur to the liner or head) but the cost of changing all the tooling was prohibitive.
--
These are the views of Robin the Technician with 35 years in the trade. I fix, therefore I am...
|
>>but the cost of changing all the tooling was prohibitive.
To put it another way,were making plenty of money so why change it
|
Or to put it another way, they didn't know how to design a wet liner engine in the first place.
Copying the PSA engines seemed like a good idea at the time, but as we all know - in engineering, the devil is in the detail.
659.
|
"On a related matter HJ suggests in yesterday's DT that someone could produce a kit to fit a Ford, or similar, engine to 1.8 Freelanders that seem to suffer the HGF probs above the K Series norm, perhaps someone already does this?"
I have no doubt that it could be done with a lot of work modifying supports, brackets, ECU settings etc but it would never be finacially sensible to do compared to getting another K Series inserted with no hassle. Then sell the wretched thing before the HG goes again...
In time the 1.8 engine will just disappear off the face of the Earth. In my opinion that will be a good thing.
|
|
Now you know who was responsible,send all your bills to Robin!
|
|
Seems that a later Ford/LR modded Freelander K-Series could be a good upgrade for an Elise etc unless the block and head castings are different so ancilliaries and mountings are different.
|
|
The best way to avoid headgasket failure on a Rover is to do what I did - sell it and by a Nissan!
|
sell it and by a Nissan!
No, that is about the 43rd best way ;-)
|
Thanks JC2......... Blame a poor, hard up ageing ex Technician.....hahaha!!!!
I was just there for the meetings with Federal Mogul - I was not part of the decision making. You also have to consider that if FM had changed the design, this forum would be a lot lighter and full of people ACTUALLY extolling the virtues of owning a car with such a 'marvellous engine'.
Pigs fully fuelled and ready to fly!!!
Cheers
--
These are the views of Robin the Technician with 35 years in the trade. I fix, therefore I am...
|
You also have to consider that if FM had changed the design this forum would be a lot lighter....
Call me a cynic, but might they have opted for the cheaper "do nothing" approach, because it'd be Rover's reputation going down the toilet rather than their own?
|
It's not really fair to blame Federal Mogul for Rover's shortcomings. Don't forget, Bentley used to make engines without head gaskets - they fitted.
Rover did not have the necessary expertise to design an engine - let alone a wet liner unit with a high specific output. They chose a gasket supplier with whom they had worked for many years but who had no expertise in this type of application. If they had, they would have warned Rover at the development stage that their design was unlikely to work. Component suplliers have a lot of know how - I've worked for some of them.
This thread really ought to go to bed now.
659.
|
|
A colleague who races a Caterham look alike with a K-series told me, when you start from cold wait for the temp guage to come up then wait five minutes more before attempting anything other than sedate driving. Cane it when it's cold and you're asking for trouble when the thermostat opens.
|
Cane it when it's cold and you're asking for trouble when the thermostat opens.
I think this is the biggest problem with the Freelander. It's quite hard not to work a 1.8 litre engine hard when it's lugging 1500-odd kg of 4x4 around.
Land Rover sell the Pressure Relief Thermostat kit which has been fitted as standard to all K-engined Freelanders since 2002 along with a modified head gasket. Apparently, this has drastically reduced hgf rates to a tiny fraction of what they were. We're going to fit a PRT kit to my dad's as a precaution (the kit is about £50). This 'stat is not only relocated from its current idiotic location, but it works on pressure difference as well as temperature. It apparently starts opening earlier, and quicker in response to high engine speeds as well as coolant temperature.
Although designed to be a "plug and play" installation for a Freelander, there are various websites telling you how to adapt this kit for an MG-F or Elise.
HGF apart, this really is a lovely little engine.
Cheers
DP
--
04 Grand Scenic 1.9 dCi Dynamique
00 Mondeo 1.8TD LX
|
The use of a copper head gasket works very well on wet lined engines and should prevent HGF, but then its a false economy as the gasket needs to be at least removed and annealed every 3 years, preferably replaced. But at least for them 3 years you get a bit of peace from the HG worries.
How have lotus dealt with the issue as they are using K series units and dont seem to report such high failure rates?
I also read once in a car mechanics magazine that one of the chief designers at rover did indeed find the cure to the dreaded HG failure's but it was too late in the day to implement and rover wouldnt fund the replacements or make it public there was a cure for fear of a recall demand.
|
How have lotus dealt with the issue as they are using K series units
They didnt so they now use different engines
dont seem to report such high failure rates?
afraid they did.
------------------------------
< Ex RF, Ex TVM >
|
>>afraid they did.
IIRC failure rate of Lotus was higher than in Rover cars,reason being the coolant return pipe to stat from rad is a lot longer than in the Rover car so it got colder,in instances where the stat suddenly opened colder water rushed into block causing thermal shock,much the same on the MGF which was the reason for the stat mod
|
Many years ago I used to work on the Pre VW Skoda cars. The engines were wet linered but had a cast iron head and aluminium block.
I can't recall ever having to replace a head gasket.
|
|
No, because the Czechs were (and probably still are) good engineers.
|
What very little true Skoda design there is on my car as opposed to rehashed obsolescent VAG (complete with cock-ups), would confirm this.
659.
|
|
|
|
