In a thread about the B class and it's auto box I said I would soon be driving a VAG 2.0TDi 170 with DSG. I now have and I've done a first review:
After two years and 32,000 largely trouble free miles (two minor warranty claims) in a 140 PS A3 with DSG I decided to upgrade to the 170 version with DSG (now S tronic). The car was ordered in the second week of March and I took delivery on Thursday.
Changes to the car
It?s noticeable how the A3 has been tweaked in the last few years. The front suspension has had some major redesign work carried out, the bone shaking ride on the Sport and S line models has been refined. I test drove an S line with 18 inch 35 (?) profile tyres and it drove very well - a Sport version I drove 3 years ago tramlined badly and you could feel every bump. This gave me confidence to opt for a no cost upgrade from 16 to 17 inch rims on the new car - an option which would have cost a few hundred quid a couple of years ago. The standard wheels are multispoke and look the business, but are a devil to clean!
I think the only item externally which distinguishes the 170PS over the 140PS is the exhaust pipes which are twin chrome and are horizontal to the road (similar to the petrol engines with twin exhausts), the 140PS has tailpipes which point to the road.
Inside the central area of the dash has changed slightly to accommodate the new Audi Concert stereo which is deeper than the old stereo so the hazard warning switch are under the radio and the climate controls are slightly lower down. The new radio displays the channel alongside the button, so no having to remember which channel is assigned to each button - when you have 18 FM stations to go at this is useful. For anyone into cricket or the shipping forecast LW bands are no longer offered. The radio station is now displayed between the speedo and rev counter, something which wasn?t available on the SE unless you chose the drivers information system option.
The drinks holder above the radio has been changed to a drawer for fuel station loyalty cards and is now below the radio, as is the ESP button. They have added a ?bonnet open? warning to the dash and a few other symbols for options I don?t have.
A couple of other interior changes I?ve noticed are the passenger seat no longer has a ?seat belt not fastened? warning and the boot now has two more curry hooks!
The engine.
At start up there?s a diesel engine rumble under the bonnet., but inside there is no more than a background rumble and there is absolutely no vibration into the cabin. This car seems quieter than the old one. Either the soundproofing has been improved, the piezo injectors are quieter, or it?s a combination of both. Whatever it is the sound is not intrusive.
The Drive
I have been driving an Aygo for the last 12 weeks, so anything with oomph would impress and my memory of the 140PS may be fading, but the 170 is much quicker. A slight application of gas results in brisk acceleration..
At the moment I?m being gentle and not exceeding 3,000 revs, but so far such excessive use of the right foot has proved unnecessary. By 3,000 the torque curve is tailing off and the car is going through the gear changes. In auto mode and gentle driving changes are made at just 2,000 revs, with a bit more right foot it still changes at less than 3,000. It will be in 6th at 45 mph if driven gently.
Power delivery is continuous with gear changes happening at the right time to ensure very rapid progress, but even when the revs get to 3,000 the noise is not intrusive.
The extra 20% of power and the increase in torque is very noticeable, especially at higher speeds where 6th gear is more than capable of getting you to illegal speeds very quickly. In the 140 it is tempting to drop to 5th, but doing so does not improve acceleration greatly as you are on the edge of the torque band.
With the 170 a paddle change from 4th at 30 mph will put the car in 5th, likewise at 40 it will go into 6th. In the 140 a change to 5th won?t happen until about 35 and likewise 6th isn?t available until about 45. IMHO this does seem to labour the engine and the car does drive you so it?s not something I will do on a regular basis.
Once into the cruise the engine settles down to turn over at between 1500 and 2100 revs (70 mph) and is very quiet. There is some tyre noise, but road surfaces have a big effect on this. The car is fitted with Pirelli P Zero Rosso tyres - 225 45 17.
The car comes with a top up of Mobile EPS oil - their latest fully synthetic oil which is suitable for VAG cars requiring 507 grade oil. The oil cap still says ?Audi recommend Castrol Oils? though! As a result of this change you no longer get a Castrol case for the oil which sticks to the boot side using Velcro (I should have kept the one form the old car!), I?ve also noted this oil is more expensive than Castrol
From my first 250 miles the 170PS engine seems more refined than the 140PS and I?m looking forward to using more of the power as the engine beds in.
If you can afford the premium for the 170PS I?d recommend it and S tronic is a perfect match to control the on/off power delivery which can be experienced in the manual cars.
What else?
Looking at the manual it seems the turbo, supercharged 1.4 is available in the A3, but not in the UK.
|
Excellent review - thank you so much. This sort of review is one of the best things the Backroom does.
"S tronic is a perfect match to control the on/off power delivery which can be experienced in the manual cars."
That's the crucial point for me. I wonder, though, if it varies from car to car, or maybe from VW to Audi to Skoda to SEAT.
I've recently had good long test runs in an Octavia 2.0 TDI 140 and a vRS TDI 170 (both manual) and a VW Golf 140 with DSG (a Jetta it was actually). Both Skodas were very impressive, oddly the 170 being quite a lot quieter than the 140 (like your A3): there was still a bit of suddenness about the power surge, but not as marked as the DSG Jetta, where there was an initial lack of oomph (like my B-class) and then a huge surge which was actually more difficult to control than it would have been on a manual.
The local Audi dealer in Reading is trying to find me an A3 like yours - I look forward to trying it but would so far agree with you that on all grounds - not all of them as expected - the 170 is worth it over the 140.
Thanks again and good luck with the A3.
|
|
I forgot to add - I have also tried a SEAT Leon 140 with DSG - far more eager from rest than the Jetta and not too much of a power surge. That confuses the picture further! I need to try a Altea with the same engine and gearbox!
|
Interesting appraisal.
Have you had chance to try out the curry hooks yet...:-)
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
What\'s for you won\'t pass you by
|
No long wave? How uncivilised. That would be a deal breaker for me.
As I'm sure you're aware there have been cases of the particulate filter on this particular model catching fire and injector problems with the 170 engine that the 140 doesn't have. Keep us updated, maybe they've fixed them by now?
|
Just to add fuel to the VAG cambelt discussion fire the recommended change interval according to the service manual is 80,000 miles on TDi engines.
The curry hook was used last Saturday and it did carry a curry (two actually, plus starters and chappatis - £11.80 - yum!).
|
|
|
|
But I wager the 170PS injun has no more torque below 1600rpm than the 140 PS injun.
Manufacturers are forever upping top-end power when the bottom is equally, if more important.
|
With DSG fitted the torque below 1500 revs is irrelevant. When you set off it engages the clutch at 1500 revs, when doing 30 you are doing 1500 revs in 4th, at 40 it's 1500 in 5th and 50 it's 1500 in 6th. At 1500 revs the car will accelerate briskly without dropping a cog, give it a bit more an it drops and cog instantly to give greater acceleration.
If when at 30 you change to 5th (or at 40 go to 6th) using the paddles it drops revs to 1200 and planting your foot on the accelerator results in nothing, but labouring the engine isn't a good idea.
|
It sounds like the DSG is an ideal match for the diesel engine, much more efficient than a three pedal manual. I have had a couple of concerns about this package. Noise, and DSG long term reliability. You've commented favourably on the former. It's obviously too early to say a lot about the latter. In theory DSG seems almost like the Holy Grail of motoring. In practice there's a lot to wrong and the repair bills could be severe. If DSG proves itself to be fit and forget reliable over a seven year life span I'd be up for it. As it is, I stick with tried and tested traditional auto technology.
One thing that bothers me is that Audi don't seem prepared to fit DSG to their flagship models such as the top end A6 and A8. Given that in other models they couple it to a variety of high output engines this might just be a weight issue. However it might be a confidence issue...
Thanks for the real world perspective on this.
|
|
DSG as fitted to the Golf/A3 has problems dealing with high torque which is one of the reasons why many remappers offer manual and DSG versions of their products. I'm not aware of anyone offering maps for the 170 with DSG because of the increased torque and the injector/particulate filter fire problems I outlined earlier.
|
Audi A4s - 2.0 and 2.7 - have CVT multitronic transmission, and all Audis with 3.0 and above have torque converter tiptronic - I suppose Audi would say that the engines are powerful enough to cope with the power loss from a conventional automatic.
So maybe DSG has only been satisfatorily mated to smaller engines - strange, though, that the A4 2.0 TDI is (I think) the same engine as used in the A3 and other VAG cars with DSG.
|
|
The Bugatti Veyron uses a form of DSG..............
|
|
|
The A3 3.2 V6 features the DSG (now S Tronic) transmission. That suggests either that it is capable of handling all that torque or that they are selling a liability. Can't see it being in their interests to risk the latter.
I'm mystified about why it's not offered in the bigger cars in their range. Any experts on the subject ?
|
|
The V6 doesn't have as much torque as the 170 diesel and about the same as the 140. As I've already said the issue with this iteration of DSG is that it cannot handle very high torque.
|
Thanks. That still doesn't explain why it can handle the 3.2 in the A3 but not, apparently, the 3.2, 2.8, 2.4, 2.0 in the A6.
What are these issues you are referring to ? How do they present themselves ? How many incidents have there been ? Have they been the subject of a recall ? Where can I read more about them ?
|
There have been reports of DSG flagging fault codes in VAG-COM when remapped to high torque levels as well as gear selection problems. Haven't heard any cases of them actually blowing up though.
I don't know exactly how many incidents there have been.
You can read more about them on Volkswagen-AG marque specific forums.
There haven't been any recalls as the DSG isn't reported to have any problems at the manufacturers standard torque outputs. This problem is the reason you can't buy an S3 with DSG.
I think the reason DSG isn't yet in the A6 and similar cars is that it was developed first for transverse applications. I'd imagine it will need beefing up and redesigning before it does.
|
|
What OH says rings bells as being correct - DSG currently only fits in Audis with transverse engines. From speaking to Audi staff the long term plan is to offer DSG across the range.
|
|
|
Could it be the direction the engines are mounted? Tranverse vs. longditudinal mounted engines? Maybe the current DSG does not fit the A4 or even the A6? Golf/A3 obviously have the engine the other way round compared to A4/A6/A8. Probably wrong though.
|
|
That's exactly what it is... the DSG only works in cars with Transverse mounted engines, and therefore is ruled out for the A4 and up as these are longditudinal mounted. You'll also note that a conventional Tiptronic box is used when Quattro is employed on such cars as the Multitronic CVT box doesn't mate to the Quattro system. The main reason I suspect DSG hasn't been moved across is that for the smaller engined cars, the 2.0TDIs and 2.0T FSI A4/A6, the Multitronic is virtually as economical as the manual anyway and smoother than the DSG, so why bring across designing an automated manual when you have a CVT that works and is as economical?
|
|
|
|
|
|
Many thanks for this excellent review - there is no substitute for an owner's candid opinion. Let us know how you get on and good luck.
|
I mentioned on another thread a small problem which had occured - failure of one touch window system on drivers side. One paragraph in the manual could have saved me a trip to the dealers, although they were excellent and the coffee was welcome at 8am!
If it fails open problem window, hold button for 3 seconds, close window and hold button for three seconds. One touch system will reset.
Just back from a trip to Cardiff 650 miles covered on 65 litres - 45 mpg.
|
|
Thanks for this daveyjp. Are you suffering from any squeaks or rattles ?
|
|
The only squeeks and rattles come from my 16 month old! I don't suffer either problem and I don't expect the car too either if it's as well built as the last one.
|
|
|
|
