I think it was Avant who asked me to post impressions of driving a Verso. Well, after cancelling one appointment because the weather was so bad, I eventually drove a T Spirit model with the 2.2 140 diesel engine on a 30-minute route of B-roads and fast dual carriageway to the south of Coventry. Not enough to be sure but here are my impressions from the drive itself and a prolonged family clamber over a T180 in the showroom. Bear in mind that my benchmark for most things is my 52 Volvo S60 D5. Remember too that I'm 1.98m or 6'5" tall - and that my wife and boys aren't small either - which influences my views on interior space.
Comfortable. Allowed me to position myself so that I was far enough from the pedals without being too far from the steering wheel. Not as comfortable as the Volvo, but then nothing else is. Seats in the demonstrator seemed less comfortable than in the T180 showroom model, but this may have been because the salesman did the usual sales trick of starting the engine before I got in (why do they do that?) so I may not have taken the time to get the adjustment quite right before moving off. Backrests seem good, cushions a little short; there is height adjustment but no tilt, so raising the cushion reduced the support under my thighs. I'd want to try a Verso for a full day before committing myself but I think it would be fine.
Driving. Feels very well planted. Hard to convey the tactile impression of driving the thing, but I pushed it as hard as I would the Volvo along a twisty and damp B road and it inspired great confidence. Ride quality I'd describe as solid - not wafty like a Citroen but not jiggly or bouncy either. I liked it very much.
2.2 140 diesel engine is excellent. Recognizably dieselly at low speeds and with a hard-edged note when accelerating - very similar to the S-Max and C4 Picasso in this respect - but never unpleasant and with plenty of power in store. Based on this, I'd feel no need to pay the extra for the T180.
Privacy glass. Horrible. Impaired the view in the interior mirror and made over-the-shoulder checks dangerously slow, since I had to pause every time until my eyes adjusted to the darker image. The children complained about the poor view out too, so I simply don't get it. Fortunately, it's not fitted to the T3, which is the model I'd probably have.
Instruments. No temperature gauge, which is odd. Speedometer graphics are in 10mph increments but crammed in too tight with no intermediate tick marks, which makes it hard to tell quickly whether you're at 30, just below or just above. To me, used to impeccably clear Swedish dials, this seems poor and entirely avoidable. There's also no clock - or at least not a permanent one: you have to scroll through the computer's display options to get to the time.
Gearchange. High-mounted lever with short movements is very quick and pleasant to use, and synchronizes easily with the clutch action. Only downside to this is that the natural synergy of gear lever and handbrake - my hands expect to find them close together - is missing, but I imagine this would ease with familiarity. Proper handbrake too - no electronic nonsense here!
Noise. Some whooshing round the big door mirrors at motorway speed but nothing unpleasant. Noise levels generally similar to the Volvo, which has always been an impressive long-distance car. My highest cruising speed equates to about 2,500 rpm in 6th, which is the same as the Volvo in 5th but quite a bit higher than even a 1.8D S-Max. Didn't try the audio system.
Visibility. Generally very good, and would be excellent with proper glass in the windows. Wipers do an excellent job of clearing the whole screen - no gap in the middle as can be the case with overlapping MPV wipers. (Being tall, I appreciate more than most having a clear view through the top of the screen, which I don't always get.)
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Space. Two ways of looking at this. One is that the Verso has substantially less capacity for passengers and cargo than price-rival seven-seaters like the S-Max and the C4 Picasso. The other is that it packs a useful amount of space for four - and occasionally five - people, along with versatile load-carrying options, into a much more compact package. (Three booster seats will just fit across the middle row, and you can stagger the individual seats to make it easier to fasten the seat belts.)
I tend to the former view and this is my biggest concern about the Verso as transport for the family Beest: with the middle row set to allow reasonable legroom behind my driver's seat, legroom in the third row is close to minimal - even our four- and six-year olds were at the lower limit of comfort in there. In even three years' time, there'd be no hope of getting them in, and we'd be left with a reasonable five-seater with load space severely compromised by the two bulky seats folded into the boot floor. Load width is reasonable, but length behind the second row is only about 830mm, while the folded seats restrict total height to about 800mm, and height below the load cover to barely 400mm.
This, to be honest, is one of only two serious reservations I have about the Verso. It feels very well designed and constructed, is very easy and pleasant to sit in and to drive, and doesn't look or feel like a bus. But the compact look belies a kerb weight of a tonne and a half - similar to the C4P and not much less than the much bigger S-Max - so it's no better on fuel than its bigger rivals, yet isn't a true seven-seater.
There's also a safety worry about that third row. The base of the backrest is barely 400mm from the very end of the car; the head restraint is even closer to the rear window. The brochure boasts of a 35/37 Euro-NCAP score, and the crumple zones that helped get this, but I don't see how the rear zone could crumple without wrapping my children in bent metal. I'd like (or possibly wouldn't) to see a Verso that's been hit hard from behind.
Conclusion. Not ready to reach one yet. As a car to drive, or travel in as one of a family of four, I like the Verso very much. Its compactness is a virtue in itself for a car that will spend much of its life in towns. But it's expensive for a smallish car; I also suspect the third row of seats in a car so short is a trick too far, and that the space gained for two very small people is not worth the sacrifice of carrying capacity. For families with shorter legs than ours, it makes a case for itself as a usable seven-seater; we'd have to decide if we like it enough to put up with the limitations of its back end, or whether we'd be better off with a big estate car for similar money - maybe even Toyota's own Avensis.
Still awake, Avant? Well, you did ask! }:---)
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Sorry, WdeB - I missed this yesterday, but maybe just as well as I have visited another Toyota dealer for a second opinion on 140 v 180 - Fish Bros near Swindon are equally as helpful as Octagon Bracknell.
I agree - I don't think the 180 is necessary, particularly as you can't have the T180 without the expensive TVs in the front seats: our kids are grown up and we don't need that. The 140 should be fine - plenty of oomph where you need it.
There is an SR version replacing the TR, which sounds good, but personally the extra goodies are things I don't want (apart from parking sensors, which presumably you can get as an extra on a T3) - particularly the privacy glass which I totally agree with you about. Visibility and a feeeling of airiness are more important, to me at least. And stupidly they offer ony four colours, all boring.
Interesting that like me you feel that the 140 Verso is good to drive. Some magazines, notably CAR and (I think) Autocar, say it isn't of interest to those who enjoy driving, but it seemed fine to me. The high driving position, which I particluarly like, doesn't often go together with good driveability, but the Verso seems to be the best of them.
So it's still on my list, although I still have a feeling for the Prius, which is much better to drive than its detractors make out. But is it as good to drive as a diesel Verso - and are either of them as enjoyable as the Skoda Octavias (a 140 TDI and 170 vRS TDI) that I tried last week? In Skoda's case the higher-powered engine was (just) woethwhile, and for some reason the quieter of the two.
WdeB - an Octavia v. Avensis comparison might be useful. The Avensis is often considered on the stodgy side - maybe not with the 180 engine?
My current shortlist (I'm in no hurry as the B-class isn't 18 months old yet) is:
Verso 140 D4D - probably T3
Prius
Skoda Octavia vRS 170 TDI
Audi A4 Avant 2.0 TDI - probably too expensive unless a good PCP deal is available
VW Golf estate 2.0 TDI when it comes out in August
SEAT Altea XL 2.0 TDI
Maybe wait for the new Laguna - maybe Renault have got the message about quality by now - they were fine in the 80s and 90s
Dismissed -
Honda Civic - see current Civic thread
Scenic and C4 Picasso - too wallowy
Another B-class - I'd keep this one longer if I was enjoying it
Not sure -
Volvo V50 - seems expensive for what it is - is it on your list, WdeB?
BMW 320d Touring - ditto, and llts of equipment is extra - but does the driveability make up for it?
Any comments most welcome. Many thanks WdeB - brilliant summary.
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Although I'm not personally scouting for these types of cars generally, I still find the review-in-the-manner-of the-car-type by 'real' people so much more informative & interesting than those formulaeic, colouring-by-numbers type of magazine road tests.
What WdB - no test of lift-off oversteer 'on the limit' or rear-end flick-ability quotient ? And no track test!! Shame on you ;)
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Thanks, chaps. I knew I could lure Avant in here eventually! I've added my own comments to a few of his below.
And stupidly they offer ony four colours, all boring.
Yep. Even the full choice of seven offers nothing special: grey, black, white, dull dark blue, almost-as-dull dark red, Ixion Blue - barely blue at all, more a sort of old-pants grey - and the inevitable silver. Oddly, the silver is quite a 'bright' shade, and suits the shape of the car so well that it might actually be the one I'd choose. And I swore I'd never have a silver car!
Interesting that like me you feel that the 140 Verso is good to drive...
Our own HJ agrees with us - although I didn't read his review before I wrote mine.
So it's still on my list, although I still have a feeling for the Prius...
I like the idea of a Prius but it's not for us. The batteries steal most of the depth from the boot, so it simply won't carry all the kit we travel with.
An Octavia v. Avensis comparison might be useful. The Avensis is often considered on the stodgy side - maybe not with the 180 engine?
I've driven a T180 Avensis over a similar route to my Verso test. Traffic precluded trying out the engine to the full but my impression was that it felt willing but less spectacular than 400 Nm would suggest. It also had over-bolstered 'sports' seats that I found uncomfortable. I tried a T3-X 150 from another dealer and found that plenty quick enough and generally more likeable. The Avensis - even the estate - is actually lighter than the Verso, so the same amount of engine will go further.
I've not looked at the current Octavia. The old one had a good boot but its Golf origins showed in the back seat, which wouldn't have enough legroom for us. (It's surprising how much room a child on a booster requires when his feet hang in the space behind the front seat and don't reach to slip underneath.) The Avensis has an excellent boot and loads of legroom, but carrying even one extra passenger would mean fitting three boosters across the back seat - a hard trick to pull off in most non-MPVs. We could have tried it on the Avensis in the showroom, but patience was running out and Home for Tea seemed like a better option.
Not sure
Volvo V50 - seems expensive for what it is - is it on your list, WdeB?
No. I looked at it when it came out and it's simply too small - in back seat and boot - for us. Even the (old) V70 is marginal for legroom - an adult would be very squashed behind me. New V70 will be out of budget for a year or several!
BMW 320d Touring - ditto, and lots of equipment is extra - but does the driveability make up for it?
Not for me either. I don't get the whole RWD schtick - I understand the theory but I've never found myself thinking "I'd be enjoying this drive so much more if the engine was driving the other pair of wheels."
In conclusion, I think Avant and I are looking for different things, which just happen to overlap near the Verso. Most estate cars from Focus size upwards can offer the carrying capacity I need; not many - even big ones like the V70 and Citroen C5 - have enough legroom behind me, and I've yet to convince myself that any will take three boosters in the back. We have only two children of our own, but would like the option of taking small friends or adult relatives along too. So I'm drawn to MPVs, especially those with five flat-folding seats. The S-Max is brilliant but still very big - I'd feel like one of those parents I've previously scoffed at for ordering a Galaxy as soon as Baby 2 was conceived; the C4 Picasso is an appealing idea but gimmicky and uncomfortable in practice; the Mitsubishi Grandis is nicely made but mechanically crude; the Zafira gets good reviews but falls down on seat folding, and I've yet to try one - and it's a Vauxhall; I've tried the Touran and the Grande Scénic in showrooms and found I don't fit; the 307 SW doesn't have enough space around the pedals for my size 47s. Have I missed anything?
That leaves a couple of estates. I've always liked the Saab 9-5 and good used ones are cheapish and plentiful. I might have one even if it won't take three boosters, just because I like Saabs so much. And while I couldn't get comfortable in the old Mondeo, the new one seems much better - and even bigger - so that's due a try soon.
There. It's helped my thinking no end just to write all this down - whether or not anyone else reads it! I'm beginning to think it might make sense to buy a two-year-old Verso and run it for another three, by which time the children will have outgrown it but there'll be plenty of used S-Maxes on the market. But that's enough for today.
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"In conclusion, I think Avant and I are looking for different things"
Yes - our 4 children are grown-up, so we've done the big MPV thing (fortunately in the days when Renaults were reliable), and you're taller than I am so rear legroom is naturally a big issue. Cearly we both enjoy driving, and there's a lot around that just isn't a lot of fun. (Although you might disagree with me about the Mercedes B-class - lots of room in the back and boot, although it doesn't seat 7).
I think your best hope, WdeB, is to find a big estate / MPV that doesn't feel big to drive - people say the S-Max fits that description though I haven't tried one, and they're new on the market so I don't know what your budget is.
If you cna do without the 7 seats the choice is much wider - Saab 9-5 as you suggest, plus Honda Accord Tourer perhaps - I agree the Octavia's rear legroom isn't great, whereas the boot is vast. Final thought - a used Mercedes C- or E-class estate maybe?
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I wonder how it compares with the C-Max? Wish I'd taken a Verso for a test drive before I bought my C-Max now!
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Maybe the C-Max should be added to the list above. I've always said I'd never buy a new Ford as residuals are so low (due to oversupply - not really Ford's fault). Possibly the C-Max is better as it may not have as many fleet sales as a Focus or Mondeo.
It has only 5 seats; if you want 7 you are supposed to go for an S-Max, Ford no doubt agreeing with WdeB above that the C-Max / Verso size is too small for 7 proper seats. I think the rear seats in the C-Max tumble forward rather than fold flat, which might be an issuie for some.
Anyone know if they are similar or different to drive? (Thinking of the Ford 2.0 TDCI versus the Toyota 2.2 140 diesel.) I will have to go and try a C-Max: I've tried and liked the Verso.
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I'm looking at new cars now I have to choose a new one again. Short list did include the new Mondeo but it is a bit big - and monthly costs on the company scheme a lot higher than say a Mazda 6 or Toyota Avensis. So have to consider those. Not bad cars. Might plump for either a 6 TS2 Estate with 2.0 disel or Avensis T4 Estate with 2.2 diesel - the latter comes with almost everything.
But a curve ball.... not driven one and not sure of styling but how about a Mazda 5 MPV?
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Fish Bros near Swindon are equally as helpful
Very good dealership (although I would have said 'in Swindon', unless they have more than one site now :) ). Two other Toyota dealers had done their very best to put me off buying an Avensis with their poor attitudes and service. Fish Bros was the 'last chance' for me as far as Toyota went, and they did the business.
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Fish Bros is apparently family-owned, which so often makes a difference (so is Octagon Toyota of Reading and Bracknell). The brothers Fish seem to own most of the dealerships in and around (landlocked) Swindon, with about 10 different franchises.
It's very difficult to find a family-owned Ford agent, although there's one in Marlow, Bucks - Perrys I think it is.
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I think Jacksons Ford in Basingstoke was family owned in the days (early 90s) I used to go there. Not sure if it still is - or if it's even still there. It's not in the new, de-concreted town centre any more, certainly.
Now, the Mazda 5 - or should that be Mazda5? Hadn't really considered it - I'd assumed the sliding doors put it firmly in the C8 / Galaxy bus category - but when I look it up it turns out to be a pretty similar package to the Verso, but with an extra 155mm of length to address (possibly) the legroom / luggage space conundrum. It doesn't try to provide three proper middle-row seats but compensates with some clever folding tricks and what looks like more space in the last row. There's a Mazda shop not far from me - I'll take a look.
Reservations: not sure I need or want the weight, complication or look of sliding doors; and to get the 143hp diesel engine means having invisibility glass in the back. Worth a look, though.
The C-Max isn't for us: it has the size limitations of the Verso without the compensation of the third row. Don't think it'll take three boosters either. Might suit Avant, though.
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>>Reservations: not sure I need or want the weight complication or look of sliding doors;
Sliding doors are a massive boon, and all MPVs should have them. This would make the task of finding a replacement for our 4-year old C8 so much easier.
SWMBO wants diesel auto, but above all it MUST have sliding doors.
Looks? Where's the difference? I think the Maxda 5 looks good with them.
Weight complication? Negligible.
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Sadly, Jacksons of Basingstoke is no more: they moved out of town and became a Skoda dealer (which should have been profitable) but went bust last autumn. I think I read somewhere that they had financial problems with their old town centre site from which they never recovered.
I intend to try a C-Max - it ticks quite a lot of the boxes with the exception of residuals.
For anyone else in Berkshire with a Skoda on their shortlist - I have discovered that although you have to go to Newbury to buy one (Ashmore Green - very friendly and they let me go out on my own for a test drive), it can be serviced in Reading. Saab Reading is part of the same company.
In hope you enjoy the Mazda 5 WdeB - maybe that's the one that'll suit you best. I don't normally worry too much about the looks of a car but even for me the 5 is too bus-like.
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"In hope you enjoy the Mazda 5 WdeB "
If he tries it and likes it he'll blame me forever ;-)
I've got the dilemma of what to replace to Mondeo TDCi Ghia with. Got to order before 22nd August or I have to take the cash option from the company instead. We have enough other cars in the immediate family to not want another,... I think.
Won't steal this thread... I'll start my own as I feel there's lots of advice I can get here as usual. I quite like the Mazda6 though. The alternative could be an Avensis but the styling worlds apart and I prefer the Mazda. But the Avensis will be cheaper. And the new Mondo so far too expensive to consider at all. I could get an Avensis T180 for far less per month!
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I strolled past the Mazda shop yesterday. Wasn't a 5 in the showroom but there was one parked in a tight corner outside and its sliding-door looks are growing on me. I'll give them a ring and see if they have a demo car.
Meanwhile, I've uploaded this picture
picasaweb.google.co.uk/willdebeest68/CarInteriors
which I took during our post-demo clamber over the Verso T180. It crystallizes my reservations about the Verso - there seems no point at all in any family of above-average height buying one as a seven-seater. The second-row seats are set to allow reasonable (not maximum) legroom behind the driver's seat set for me. While there's room in the middle row to take along a couple of adult relatives, as we occasionally like to do, there isn't room in the back for even children as young as ours to be comfortable for long.
And, of course, once you've squeezed your extra people into the third row, there's no boot at all. Not even room for sandwiches for seven, never mind boots, waterproofs and the other gubbins required for a day out. But you pay a big premium for those extra, unusable seats, so I think the Verso's off my list.
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