I shall be very boring now, but I have often said on here that we have owned Cits since 1986 ish and they have all been reliable. Originally I always fancied a DS, and then a CX (because of the suspension and style). Couldn't afford them but when second hand BX diesels came along we got them. 170k miles and then 140 k miles with Bxs, then 100k and now 90k with Xantias and we are still running them. Never had anything done to any of the diesel engines except 4 glowplugs, a couple of cambelts: called out RAC once when an accellerator cable snapped. Replaced a few spheres, some brake discs and pads, an "octopus", a front strut, and a drive shaft and intermediate bearing and done a lot of oil changes - oh and a clutch on the oldest BX when it had done 100k and we were due to set off for Greece towing a caravan (bloke who did it said it didn't really need doing - wasted £80!) In 20 years they have been extremely reliable. For the last 4 years I have had a Berlingo (wife still likes her 90k Xantia Exclusive with all its fancy bits) and have had a service or 2 and a new indicator stalk.
But I do like the way others say that they are carp- there are some great 2nd hand bargains out there!
To complete your boredom here's a quote from a Cit message board from a few years ago
"I drive a BX diesel which I use as a taxi. It's my 5th. BX 19 diesel & all gave me the greatest satisfaction in both reliability & economy. I still have my 1987 BX which I cannibalise for spares, not that I need many. It was retired for 'scrap' after a crash @ 350,000 miles. It's replacement was sold off for less than the value of its parts @ 450,000 miles; one has been retired to my driveway @ 740,000miles & my current workhorse is now @ 380,000 miles. I've never changed a wheel-bearing, only one gearbox and a few suspension bits; one major engine overhaul; two head-jobs but never a tow-home failure [unless you count the one time I let the cam-belt snap!]. "
New C5 due next year looks good to me - should be a cheap one around in a couple of years, but Xantia will probably still be going strong at 120k, maybe get a 3 yr old one for about £5000 - or a C6 for £12k - what a decision to make!!
What carp cars - don't buy one (especially second hand)
--
Phil
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This is purely personal experience, but I've known a fair number of people with Renaults, and it seems that sooner or later they all go bang in some way or another. Seems to be Meganes especially in fairness, I know of 3 or 4 reliable Clios.
I don't want to turn this into a "bashing" thread but I can't understand why the French still have volume car makers and the UK doesn't. Rover cars did have a lot of problems in the 70s but the 820s and 827s etc. seemed reliable enough. Certainly we had a hard driven 827 which was a great car and never gave any trouble in well over 100,000 miles. I also had an unrestored 1975 P6 V8 which despite being 25 years old was perfectly good when I used it to commute (even a number of trips London->Birmingham). (In fact I'd put it up against a lot of modern cars). So how come giving the slating they get on this forum and others the French manufacturers are still going strong?
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If you go to France you'll find that the great majority of cars on the road are French. It would be interesting to see a French satisfaction survey and see what comes top and bottom. Maybe French mechanics understand their cars better than ours do.
When I started driving in the 1960s you could say the same about Britain's cars mainly being British. I suspect that this changed:
- partly because of the problems with British Leyland cars' reliability (such a tragedy - in the 50s you really could 'depend upon an Austin')
- and partly through the coming of company cars: there were so many Fords and Vauxhalls around that for private buyers they were not such a good bargain as they didn't hold their value. To some extent that is still true, and private buyers have gone 'foreign' and stayed there.
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When I started driving in the 1960s you could say the same about Britain's cars mainly being British. I suspect that this changed:
Hmmm. This assumes that you class Ford and Vauxhall as being "British". This error is a personal pet-hate of mine. They are foreign, American cars.
It pains me when some plank in his Spanish-made, German-engineered American Ford calls my British-made Nissan "foreign carp".
If you go to France you'll find that the great majority of cars on the road are French.
And mostly very basic French, considered "poverty spec" here. The faults in French cars are predominantly in the under-developed electronics that British buyers insist on.
As for BL's reliability problems, I'm not so sure that's the real reason people went off Brit cars. If that were the case, why didn't people switch to German and Japanese models predominantly? Nah, the real reason is dated designs and an old codger image. The snobbery began in the 80s, and if the silly fools in this country weren't so obsessed with "brand values" (what the hell are they anyway FFS?) the like of Rover would probably have survived.
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As for BL's reliability problems, I'm not so sure that's the real reason people went off Brit cars. If that were the case, why didn't people switch to German and Japanese models predominantly? Nah, the real reason is dated designs and an old codger image. The snobbery began in the 80s, and if the silly fools in this country weren't so obsessed with "brand values" (what the hell are they anyway FFS?) the like of Rover would probably have survived.
You might be on to something here. I think the P5 and P6 and the 70s Triumphs are beautiful. (If you look at that new Chrysler 300C which is very popular over here, to me it looks like a lowered P5B!) And I remain an unashamed supporter of the P6 - if I could ship one over here, and find someone to maintain it, I would!
But they were the upmarket cars - the average punter had to have Allegros, Maestros, Montegos, etc., which probably were just not that attractive for various reasons.
It's also interesting if as you say the average Frenchman drives a poverty spec car with no complicated extras to fail.
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>>and 827s etc. seemed reliable enough
Not the two my father had.
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"I don't want to turn this into a "bashing" thread but I can't understand why the French still have volume car makers and the UK doesn't."
Very very simple. Because the French government (in common with most other European countries) support their industry whilst we didn't. Still, we have the City and we're good at producing pop must apparently.....
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"I don't want to turn this into a "bashing" thread but I can't understand why the French still have volume car makers and the UK doesn't." Very very simple. Because the French government (in common with most other European countries) support their industry whilst we didn't. Still, we have the City and we're good at producing pop must apparently.....
My two pennies worth on this is that the French car industry survived because during the late 1960s and 70s it had a more logical and simpler product range. Effectively you had the choice of fewer brands (Renault, Peugeot, Simca and Citroen) with a logical progression of models in each range. Consolidation of Citroen and then Simca into Peugeot seemed to go alot more smoothly than the BL mergers/brand rationalisation.
I would agree that state ownership of Renault has definitely preserved a volume car manufacturer where by rights it might well have disappeared in the past. State ownership in France seems to often aid and abet a company whereas here it seems a death wish or politically motivated decisionmaking and lack of strategic awareness/thinking.
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I would agree that state ownership of Renault has definitely preserved a volume car manufacturer where by rights it might well have disappeared in the past. State ownership in France seems to often aid and abet a company whereas here it seems a death wish or politically motivated decisionmaking and lack of strategic awareness/thinking.
How does state ownership benefit the French car industry? If financially, I thought bailing out companies was not allowed. And is not a long-term solution anyway!
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I've had reliable Citroens and Renaults in the past.;Ford -American??.Quite the reverse.Both Ford of Britain and Ford of Germany are fiercly independent of the States and as far as possible of each other.
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I've had reliable Citroens and Renaults in the past.;Ford -American??.Quite the reverse.Both Ford of Britain and Ford of Germany are fiercly independent of the States and as far as possible of each other.
How can Ford of Britain and Ford of Germany be, in any practical sense, independent of each other, when the cars they design, manufacture and sell are the same product?
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Well its more about the beneficial involvement of the State in its widest sense in Renault. In France my understanding is that alot of state owned companies are run well by extremely well educated (and well connected) management who often have a spell in senior civil service, a state run company and back again. This cadre of people who attend one of the "Grande Ecoles" such as ENA or the Ecole des Mines typically move easily between the core part of the state and its "subsidiaries" and are well connected within it. As a result during State ownership these state owned enterprises seem to benefit from good strategic management whereas in Britain we never really had a cadre of management expertise that could run a state run enterprise and think strategically. UK civil servants seem typically to have never spent any of their working career outside of Whitehall and as a result had no real idea of how to manage BL or have a coherent car industry strategy.
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My families experience of Citroen:
Mother: AX 1.1TRE 1988 model ran for 8 years from new, plus four by my cousin, cost average 400 per year to service, traded a 1.3 agricultural Metro in for it and when the AX was new it was considered by others as weird / avante garde because it had a single spoke wheel, Mk2 changed that aspect but had less finnesse. It did 50MPG and was great to drive - light weight but economical and would do 100 MPH easily. Save the planet? buy an AX because they are so lightweight fuel is used economically and with driver pleasure, the Saxo is too heavy in comparison.
Mother: Saxo 1.5 Diesel replaced the AX, 64 MPG but car had no no joi de vivre.
Sons car: Saxo VTS bought new, fantastic acceleration and light weight 0-60 in 7.8 not many cars kept up around town but gearbox mountings failed twice and trim fell off so traded after 2 years for MX5 which accellerates a lot slower.
Sons car: GXA estate, fantastic load area with Hydro suspension and futuristic controls, wish i'd kept it!
Brothers car early GS, flimsy bodywork when we towed it...
Simca 1000 GLS - comfy with great disc brakes on the front,
Simca 1000 1294cc Special had great air horns as standard and eat Cortinas on the road.
I have also had Renaults 4, 18 and found them to have rip off parts prices and really rude customer service so I would go for Citroen if buying French.
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I've heard too that the C6 is a loss leader, being a beautifully engineered car, but designed and built solely to ensure the French President would be seen in it. They've succeeded, and no doubt sell many more Picasso's there as a result.
Us Brits are undoubtedly car snobs - no way would this site thrive in France for a start! A/C in France means working windows. You see no BMWs in France outside Paris and Nice. Vendee still houses Deux Chevaux by the hundred. The average spend on cars there must be half that here, and not only due to differential pricing!
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