Rear-most seats are low on our personal list of priorites - the ones on our C8 languish in the garage most of the time. Which just shows how car designers can't please all of the people all of the time!
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In my experience Mitsubishi have always produced quite good vehicles. They had a lot of problems with the GDi engines (coking up) which lost them credibility with the trade and hit used Mitsi values very hard - and depreciation of any Mitsi is still high.
Parts and servicing can be eyewateringly expensive but parts supply is one of the best - even obscure grey-import parts sometimes turn up next day!
The manual transmissions can be very notchy (esp when cold) due to poor design of the synchro's. The auto's are much better - they are all of the INVECS design which dates back to the early '90's. I believe JATCO have taken over the Mitsi auto division (I think it was called 'Diamond Matic'). When having the auto transmission fluid changed or topped-up always insist on the correct Mitsubishi Diamond SP-III ATF being used - Dexron is not really suitable. You can also buy SP-III from Hyundai and Kia dealers.
Pity Mitsi don't sell the Eclipse in the UK, not to mention why no replacement for the FTO? - that was a cracking little car, very very tough and great fun to drive - also quite simple to fix (not that they ever really go wrong).
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Save your money and buy an older Merc T-series estate. They last for ever (well ~350k) and the money you save will run it for years.
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Save your money and buy an older Merc T-series estate. They last for ever (well ~350k) and the money you save will run it for years.
Good ones are getting very thin on the ground now. A lot have been 'worked to death'!
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Aaah, you didn;t read my requirements.
6 plus loads luggage! plus ALL seats must be adult size, Merc estate if I recall has seats 6/7 in the form of rear facing bench in the boot. Only big enough for children, plus you cannot have half the width for luggage and half with width for 6th seat. Also wanted to treat Mrs G to something new or nearly new.
This is why a 2 +2+3 won't work for me (like Voyagers) or an Estate like the Merc or Peugot 405 Family with a rear fencing bench where the boot should be.
Had the Mitsu for about 3 weeks now, and LOVE IT. So quiet, and smooth, its like riding a magic carpet, also very brisk and good acceleration compared to the Galaxy 2.3 Auto, and very responsive automatic box, seems to kick down whenever needed without jerking. It seems to read my mind about gear changes to the point that I hardly have need to flick the lever across to Tiptronic style overide yet.
Only niggle, no lights actually inside the headlight and windsreen stalks, so hard to see the functions in the dark, also Windscreen stalk which has a lot of functions on it due to variable speed intermittent controls and controls for rear wash/wipe is completely hidden from view behind steering wheel, so not only is it unlit and hard to see in the dark, but even in daylight. Soon though I will have memorised which way to swivel / twist and for what function.
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Glad you like the Grandis. I have three young kids, so the Grandis would be hopeless as we need three individual seats. I test drove the S-max and thought it was a superb drive. The carpet flapping is irritating and the catch that holds it in place is mind-bogglingly awful. What about the new C4 Picasso? Drive the deal are doing diesels of Citroen and S-max for around 15k.
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I have a Grandis Diesel Elegance (or rather the wife does) and 3 kids.
You can get 3 seats across the middle but only just. Now that 2 are in booster seats it makes putting the child seat in much easier. The boot is much bigger than my 5 series estate. I would say that on the plus side, as it is relatively narrow, it is not too hard to drive around London. In fact it has almost exactly the same dimensions as my 5 estate.
There are some drawbacks - firstly is the hideously high service costs. My first service cost me £300 odd pounds and they want to do this every 9,000 miles, which can be stretched to 10k to keep in warranty. The next service (18/20k) will most likely cost £500.
The plastics are a little too hard. There is an unacceptable amount of glare on the windscreen from the dash. I am 6ft3 and I can only just get my knees comfortable when driving. If you are any taller, be warned. I did drive for about 250 miles and got quite a lot of back ache. The front passenger leg room is a little too small. The diesel is a little noisy and has quite a bit of torque steer and you can spin the wheels easily in damp/wet conditions. The traction control kicks in quite late to the extent that it is pretty much useless.
I think that with these cars the colour seems to make a lot of difference. If you are happy driving in one of the pinky purpley coloured ones, then you can knock off a few thousand.
Overall we are pleased with it. The Grand Scenic was another that we looked seriously at but the boot was too small and I was concerned about buying a French car as I have not had the best reliability experiences in the past. I thought the Japanese engineering with a VAG diesel was the best combination to go for.
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PS - I have had a full-sized (!!) adult in the rear most folding seats, along with 3 kids in the middle and prams etc in the boot. A little bit of a squeeze but not really a problem
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My two experts (ages 4 and 6) and I had a clamber over a Grandis Warrior in a showroom yesterday and I was impressed by the feel of quality it has. A few thoughts and questions in no particular order:
* There's no All Folded option for the seats, just the space you can achieve behind the bulky middle row when it's slid forward. This seems like quite a limitation for carrying loads, relative to the S-Max and the C4P. But...
* ...if I'm reading the brochure right, you can fold all five rear seats flat to make a kind of bed, so as long as you don't mind your load resting on the upholstery (or you can engineer a removable, folding false floor to cover it with) you have the option of bringing home 7-foot long Billy bookcases from Ikea and the like. Not sure how it would cope with bikes, though - it seems to have less internal height than the other two.
* If you want a cruise control (which I've come to like) you have to have the Equippe [sic] or Elegance, which also come with two sliding sunroofs. Haven't tried this combination yet but I'd be afraid of losing out on headroom.
* The 60-40 middle bench is less versatile than the three separate seats in the S-Max and C4P but probably makes the Grandis a better four-seater - which is how we'll use it most often - since the outer seats are more substantial and there's an armrest in the middle.
* Downside of this is that, since the car is about 80mm narrower overall than the S-Max, a third booster seat in the middle row looks like a tight fit. You could, I suppose, stagger them by sliding one portion further back than the other. Can the owners here comment on how well that works?
* This is one of the few cars I've tried where I've been tempted by leather seats. Leather in cars - even one friend's BMW 5 - tends to remind me of MFI leather sofas and 'executive' desk chairs but this seemed thick, soft and well finished.
* There's still a useful amount of room for luggage behind the last row - enough for a good day out, if not for a week away. This also means the passengers are a reasonable distance from the back bumper, certainly further than in the C4P.
Overall, my impression was that the Grandis might offer a good balance between the likeable, common-sense virtues of the S-Max and the comfort and style of the C4P - without Ford's low-rent materials or Citroen's over-clever features. The dealer is waiting for a new demo car to come it; I'm looking forward to trying it.
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Did any of you look at the 2006 Kia Carens? Would have thought demonstrators would be on the market now at a reasonable price. It seems to have a good review.
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* There's no All Folded option for the seats, just the space you can achieve behind the bulky middle row when it's slid forward. This seems like quite a limitation for carrying loads, relative to the S-Max and the C4P. But...
Not that I have done it yet, but you can fold the middle seats up and push them up against the front seats. I am not sure if that was what you were meaning when saying slid forward. Anyway they don't fold flat.
* ...if I'm reading the brochure right, you can fold all five rear seats flat to make a kind of bed, so as long as you don't mind your load resting on the upholstery (or you can engineer a removable, folding false floor to cover it with) you have the option of bringing home 7-foot long Billy bookcases from Ikea and the like. Not sure how it would cope with bikes, though - it seems to have less internal height than the other two.
Yes you can do this. Also the rear most 2 seats can be set up so that when the boot is open you can dangle your legs out the back - useful if you go to gymkhanas!!! Not sure about the internal height bit compared to others,
* If you want a cruise control (which I've come to like) you have to have the Equippe [sic] or Elegance, which also come with two sliding sunroofs. Haven't tried this combination yet but I'd be afraid of losing out on headroom.
As mentioned I am 6ft3 and the headroom is fine. Any taller and there might be a problem. Just to correct you about the sunroofs: the front one is a pop-up only. the front one slams itself shut at 96mph on mine. As the front just pops up there is no problem losing headroom.
* The 60-40 middle bench is less versatile than the three separate seats in the S-Max and C4P but probably makes the Grandis a better four-seater - which is how we'll use it most often - since the outer seats are more substantial and there's an armrest in the middle.
Correct. Also makes driving in town easier as the same width as a 5 series (and also same length, within about 5mm).
* Downside of this is that, since the car is about 80mm narrower overall than the S-Max, a third booster seat in the middle row looks like a tight fit. You could, I suppose, stagger them by sliding one portion further back than the other. Can the owners here comment on how well that works?
Not tried staggering. Tight squeeze but works with one child seat and 2 boosters.
* This is one of the few cars I've tried where I've been tempted by leather seats. Leather in cars - even one friend's BMW 5 - tends to remind me of MFI leather sofas and 'executive' desk chairs but this seemed thick, soft and well finished. * There's still a useful amount of room for luggage behind the last row - enough for a good day out, if not for a week away. This also means the passengers are a reasonable distance from the back bumper, certainly further than in the C4P.
Manage to store my sons rather bulky wheel chair behind the 3rd row of seats as well as a fair bit more. One of the reasons that we went for this rather than a Grand Scenic.
Overall, my impression was that the Grandis might offer a good balance between the likeable, common-sense virtues of the S-Max and the comfort and style of the C4P - without Ford's low-rent materials or Citroen's over-clever features. The dealer is waiting for a new demo car to come it; I'm looking forward to trying it.
Unless they have changed from my 55 plate one, I thought that the materials were a little too much on the low side.
Another thing that I find slightly strange is that there is aircon in the back but you can't have any heating (except as an extra).
Although there is no NCAP rating, I did do a bit of hunting on the www and found some results from Japan where it does quite well.
Also BEWARE the service costs.
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Thanks for all that, AM. My concern about the sunroof is that I'm 6'5", so I need all the headroom I can get, but if the front panel is a popper not a slider, and doesn't have a bulky frame around it, that may be OK. I was fine in the Warrior but all that chrome and the 18" wheels make it a bit full-on pimp for my taste, so a more discreet model would suit me better.
I noticed that flipping up the cushions of both portions of the middle row created a channel that might be useful for certain loads - I wondered about our cat in his box en route to the vet. The brochure doesn't make a feature of it but have you found a use for it yet?
I don't know yet if it'll be a better bet for us than an S-Max but it has to be worth a try. I rather like Mitsubishis - I almost bought a Space Runner back in 1993 (when I was still young, reckless and single) because it was one of the few things I could find with enough headroom. Insurance costs put me off then, but now I'm old and sensible that should be less of a problem. Certainly encouraging to find satisfied owners here.
>:---)
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Didn't want a Warrior myself as I thought that it wasn't particularly good value. As you say it is a bit pimped up which is irrelevant to me and you seem to get a drop down DVD from the roof for about £1500 when I bought one that plugs into the ciggie lighter for £150 (and I can take it out and use elsewhere). Also the Warrior does not have traction control, which I thought was a good idea for the wife as she is not the best driver in the world!!
I am not sure about the situation with the 18" tyres are but we have 17" ones and there are not many manufacturers who make them - and they are expensive.
Never folded the seat section up to make a channel, so sorry can't help there.
Would advise again to:
- sit behind the wheel to see if your left knee is comfortable or rubs against the gear stick housing.
- ask about the glare from the dashboard which is fine if using polarised sunglasses)
- SERVICE COSTS - maybe petrol don't neediong servicing every 9k miles.
If I were to buy again, I would seriously look at the S-Max but it rather depends on the boot space for us as we have a disabled child and need room for the clobber. Having said that, SWMBO liked the look of the Grandis and the fact that there were not thousands around on the road.
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I nearly started a new thread but as it's very similar, I'm going to muscle in on this one,if that's ok.
We nearly have three children. The eldest is approaching 4, the 2nd is 19 months and number 3 is due in May. We currently have a Vectra and there is not enough room for 3 car seats on the back seat. I wanted to avoid a 'bus' ie Espace, Alhambra etc if possible but feel that is our only option.
We need a car that we can fit 3 car seats in a row. We need good boot space as we go and see far away relatives fairly regularly. We'd prefer diesel. 7 seats would be a bonus (but not essential) as that means we can ferry grandparents around too when they come and stay instead of taking 2 cars everywhere so, we need the rear seats to be manouverable. Had a look at photos of the Warrior. Looks nice but not convinced by pic that we'd get 3 bulky car seats in a row. Zafira same problem. Grand Scenic, not convinced car seats would go in comfortably and rear seats not meant for adults and i didn't like the way the seat belt came from the rear for the middle seat.
Can anyone help us? We don't have very much to spend (new house, new baby etc) but I would be very grateful for some advice on a good family car.
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What's your budget georgie.
Personally I would be looking at a Honda stream or FRV if you can stretch to it.
A colleague in a similar position (young man with young family) has just bought and FRV and is delighted with it.
You will only get a diesel in the FRV and it will be at the top end price wise but with either car you will be getting an extremely well engineered MPV.
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Our budget is about £10,000 at a stretch. Had a look at the ones you suggested and they look nice. We'll go and have a look and take the 3 seats with us to see if we can get them in without too much of a squeeze. Thanks for the tip.
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As the person who kicked this thread off, it has been really interesting to read these comments.
As I said early on, our children are growing up now and we don't need child seats even for the younger ones, our Galaxy before had the ability to sit three child seats across the middle row, but now only our youngest (of four) just needs a small booster, conversely the elder ones are large teeangers now. 90% 0f the time we are running the Grandis as a 2 + 2 +2, and knowing this meant that choosing a car where the back two are not full size was probaly not going to be good idea. If you need to strap in 3 child seats, than a local childminder friend of mine who also runs a Grandis says its not a problem, in our case though it simply isn't an issue.
When we are carrying luggage we fold one rear most seat down and travel as a 2 + 3 + 1, and since we no longer need child seats, three across the middle row is not a problem at all. I would have preferred individual seats (x3) in the middle row, and for that reason might have looked at a C4 Picasso, but we wanted a high spec model and budget wouldn't have stretched right now. We cope fine though with the Grandis.
Also alot of the time we simply run it as a 2 +3 with huge boot, e.g. for trips to the park with bikes, or visits to council tip. Fold flat seating for that back row is simply a must have now. Middle row does not fold flat but does easily tip up and fold agains the back of the front seats.
So when it comes to 2 + 2 + 2 seating with full size rearmost seats, that fold into the floor, the new Galaxy might do the job, but too expensive. ChrysletrVoyager would do it, but cannot be used at all as a 2 +3 +1 when we need to carry luggage, and the S-MAX rear most folding seat arrangement I know was going to drive us nuts when you compare side by side (as we did because the Ford and Mitsubishi Grandis were opposite each other on same road, and owned by same company?, the poor design of that folding seat, and the flappy carpet, and the awful clip, are unforgivable.
Re headroom, the Warrior has more heardroom than the Elegance since the sun roofs rob headroom. I hate sunroofs anyway, never use them can't stand the sun on the top of hy head! Warrior's DVD player is a great idea, keeps the children happy on long journeys and has stopped the fights over who sits in front when only parent is present (driving).
The Pinky colour is cheaper, and plenty of them around, but the Chrome detailing on the Warrior breaks up the rather slab sided appeareance of the car. Ours is silver, and we think it looks great. We nearly bought a Pinky (amethyst) one for about £1000 less, but side by side on the forecourt it looked far less impressive.
Servicing costs are an issue, and we will shop around between 3 Mitstubishi dealers when the time comes.
Guy
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Re Grandis colours: for reasons best known to someone other than me, the colour of your Grandis depends on the engine you choose. The White-Pants-in-a-Mixed-Wash purple (Amethyst) and the rather nice silvery blue are reserved for petrol models, whereas diesels get white, silver, grey, darker blue or black.
As for the S-Max, I've practised folding the seats and it does get easier - you learn where to put the flappy bits and they fall into place quite neatly. (Still not as elegant as the counterbalanced Grandis seats, though.) My dealer tells me the flimsy plastic catches will be replaced with magnetic ones in new cars, so that shouldn't be a problem for long.
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I had a peek through a few Corolla Verso windows in a car park this w/e and they look promising but a little pricey. We are really trying to avoid buying something big like an Espace so perhaps this is our only answer. There are plenty of options out there if you don't need three full on car seats in a row. The eldest is only 3 so is much too young to be right at the back like he would be in a Chrysler Voyager. It's an interesting thread and there is a lot to look at. I just hope we manage to find the right one before the baby is due in May otherwise someone will be left behind at hospital!!
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Georgie - I had a good long test run in a Verso and it was indeed impressive: the 2.2 is very lively, and you can fold all 5 rear seats down to make a flat, if rather high, floor. Unlike some MPVs, this one was good fun to drive. I think you should get a 2.0 diesel a couple of years old for £10,000 - but you'd need to see if you can get all 3 seats in one.
It's width you need, rather than length, isn't it - maybe the ones to look at might be -
VW Touran
Toyota Verso
One of the Kias - I can't remember their names
Mazda MPV - this might be a bit big
Fiat Multipla (I hesitate to recommend a Fiat to anyone, but it might just fit). With this and the Honda FRV you have two rows of 3 seats. No good for 7 then but you might have to weigh up the importance of not needing 2 cars when the grandparents come against the inconvenience of having too big a car for the rest of the time!
The trouble is that anything in the size you want won't be comfortable for adults in the rearmost seats.
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Thanks for that. You seem to have looked at every MPV out there which is just what I need!! I sat in the back of a Grand Scenic and you're right, the seats aren't meant for adults but I thought for short journeys, just in to town, a bit of sight seeing, we could manage. I am hesitant not to get 7 seats as I don't want to regret it. Although we don't need 7 most of the time, for the times we do, they will be invaluable. Such a difficult decision!
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Georgie - go for the 7 seats even if you don't use as the boot is usually bigger (ie Scenic vs Grd Scenic). I had a Grd Scenic on hols and we managed to put my mother in law in the back row quite happily but then she is only about 5ft6
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As you say, the seats in the back of the Grand Scenic aren't for adults, exactly why I ruled it out. Go and have a look at a Grandis.
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> ...the boot is usually bigger (ie Scenic vs Grd Scenic). I had a Grd Scenic on hols and we managed to put my mother in law in...
Just for a moment, I thought that mini-anecdote was going to end very differently.
>;---)
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Question for the Grandis owners on here......
Does your burglar alarm constantly go off, from passing motorbikes and heavy rain?
Mine does and I have had to put blutack on teh sensors to stop it going off constantly but that seems to defeat the object of them!! Also the dealer has had 3 times and still can't sort out!
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Question for the Grandis owners on here...... Does your burglar alarm constantly go off, from passing motorbikes and heavy rain? Mine does and I have had to put blutack on teh sensors to stop it going off constantly but that seems to defeat the object of them!! Also the dealer has had 3 times and still can't sort out!
Yes my Grandis did the same but the Dealer replaced a sensor and all is now ok and has been for a year ......A question for Grandis owners mine has a lot of rust on the rear discs which twice now has caused the brakes to bind when parked up for a week, but this is not covered by the warranty the Dealer has informed me!!!
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ukmpvman - can I ask where the dealer who replaced the sensor is located as mine seem incapable of sorting this out? Do your sensors look a bit like an aftermarket speaker for a hands free kit?
Rust on the rear discs - no but the hub that the rear wheel sits (or rather the retaining bolts fit into) on is very rusty and will be talking to the dealer later.
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ukmpvman - can I ask where the dealer who replaced the sensor is located as mine seem incapable of sorting this out? Do your sensors look a bit like an aftermarket speaker for a hands free kit? Rust on the rear discs - no but the hub that the rear wheel sits (or rather the retaining bolts fit into) on is very rusty and will be talking to the dealer later.
The dealer is Mitsubishi Cheltenham and mine looks as you say... its supplied by TOAD and is fitted by Misubishi at the import centre at Portbury docks near to Bristol.
The rust is also on the hub and I looked at some 05/55 Grandis's at another dealer yesterday and they have the same problem, let me know what your dealer says about it!
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Rust on rear wheel hubs...
Two of you have reported this, and now I have this problem too, I have had the card for about 5 weeks, (its a 2 year old on a 05 plate). Any tips? do I go back to the dealer. If this much rust can build up in 5 weeks, whats it going be like after 1 year, 2 years, 5 years! Rust = corrosion, and I don't like the idea of my wheel hubs corroding!
Guy
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It's still under warranty so go straight back to the dealer. As other people's Grandises (Grandes?) seem to have the same problem, Mitsubishi may have an official fix for it, or may simply replace what may have been a faulty batch.
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Dealer told me that it not covered under the warranty for corrosion
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Drove a Grandis for the first time today and, with some regret, have eliminated it from the contest. It was a 2.0D Equippe, but I could live with the name if it weren't for:
The sunroofs. More of a personal thing, this, but the combination of the high seating position and the hefty housing for the glass panels in the roof meant that there wasn't enough room for my head. I also felt my head was too close to the mirror, there were awkward blind spots around the A-pillars, and the wipers didn't do a good job of cleaning the part of the screen in front of my eyes. In short, I felt too tall for the car, which is an experience I hadn't had for a while. I could have a Grandis without them, of course, but there'd be no cruise control Not that really matters because of...
The diesel engine. I've not driven a current PD Volkswagen - last time was a Passat TDI 130 in 2002 - but if this is their state of the art, VW is in trouble. It's unresponsive, it makes the wheel and pedals vibrate, it's constantly noisy, even when cruising - at motorway speed, it's revving faster in 6th than my Volvo D5 does in 5th - it never quite feels like it's in the right gear. But worse than the volume of noise is the rough, rattly quality of it - the closest comparison I can think of is to the old Saab 2.2 TiD that used to spoil the 9-5. Not good.
The steering wheel adjusts for height but not for reach and it's too far away for comfort. Lowering it almost onto my thighs made it easier to reach, but then it obscured most of the instruments. Curiously, I wasn't aware of this on the sunroof-less Warrior model I sat in before, so perhaps I was compensating for the lack of headroom by sitting further back. Whatever it was, it wasn't comfortable.
Add to these problems that the middle seats don't fold flat, and that it's likely to cost more to service and insure than an S-Max and, much as I wanted to like the Grandis, I can't make a case for it. It's stylish, distinctive, copes well enough with twisty Warwickshire B-roads, and is very nicely built and finished - except for a duff window seal on mine that made a noise like an angry wasp at anything over 45mph. It feels well proportioned too - not as wide as other biggish MPVs, so easier to place naturally on the road, and I could even have lived with a silver one, since there are so few others about. Maybe the petrol engine is civilized enough to make the difference, but I'd have to get one very cheap before I could live with 30mpg. Anyone care to try to persuade me?
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I am replying to you in two threads, also have made comment in your thread about diesel vs petrol, but since I started this thread, I thought I'd comment here too.
Sunroofs: never liked them myself, don't like the sun on my head.. went for the Warrior version, which has no sunroofs, better headroom as a result, plus advantage of DVD player for the kids in the back, and some nice chrome detailing. As for lack of Cruise Control on Warrior, in the UK I always found the cruise control on my Galaxy and Scorpio, useless due to the "wave" effect on our motoroways, i.e. meeting slow moving traffic anywhere esp when a lane is dropped or on a steep include. Wipers I think are fine, much better than the Galaxy that left an uncleared strip dangerously in vision when lookin right(ish).
Diesel: simple.... forget it and try the petrol. Petrol versions are about £2K cheaper for a 2 year old than Diesel, you wil have to do about 50,000 miles in it before you claw back that saving, so i don't even believe the maths adds up in favour of diesel, despite the economy.
Steering wheel. in practice hasn't bothered me or my wife, I asked myself how often I adjusted the wheel in/out on our old Galaxy, and I think I concluded "never". Not something I miss in fact.
Middle row of seats, don't fold flat you are right, but they "crunch up" and take up no more space than in the Galaxy and other similars, to be honest, as long as the back row folded flat in the floor, I wasn't worried. I repeat what I said at the top about the S-MAX. the folding rear seats seemed a nightmare! really hard to use, flappy bits of trim left behind, and not even flat in to floor, more like flat on to floor. Compared with the Grandis?
Whatever choice you make... good luck
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Thanks Guy. I liked the Grandis enough to feel it deserves a second try, but in petrol, manual, Classic form. I presume the window-seal problem was a one-off, and that I'll have enough headroom without the sunroofs. The steering wheel may be OK if I'm comfortable in the seat - I drove Saabs for seven years despite feeling the wheel was too far away; again, one way to find out. (I'm 6'5", so I sit further back than most and in any car I like to pull the wheel as far back as it will go and as low as possible without obscuring the dials.)
Cruise control is something that came as standard on my Volvo - I wouldn't have ordered it as an extra - but find I use more than I expected to. Not on busy motorways, of course, but where it's quiet enough to spend most of my time in the left lane, I find it lets me drive a little slower and a lot more smoothly. (On French motorways it is, of course, magnifique.) But other makers offer cruise as a dealer-fit option, so that may be possible for the Grandis too. (Aside: if you buy a new S60 S now, you get the fuel computer as standard, - which I didn't on mine and don't miss, although the Saabs had them - but not the cruise control.)
Incidentally, the winner of Best Seat-Folding Options has to be the Citroen C4 Picasso - although that has less legroom in the second row than the S-Max or the Grandis, being quite a bit shorter overall.
No pressing reason to decide at the moment, so I'm enjoying the process of considering. I'm even wondering whether I should ditch the MPV idea (I seldom carry more than four) and buy the Saab 9-5 estate I've always hankered after. We'll see.
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If you seldom carry more than 4, maybe Grandis doesn't make such sense, it is a big and thirsty (in petrol form) after all. My requirements are that we are often 5 or 6 people, and if we are 6 and are going away, we need luggage space too. Also the children are getting older, and a 7 seater where the back seats are only fit for youngsters won't do, all seats have to accomodate adults. This rules out, Mazda 5, Toyota Verso, etc. Zafira is not a bad car, for me it has three problems i) rear seats don't fold flat unless you slide middle row which is a bench, forwards first, that is not an acceptable compromise in my opinion. ii) not much luggage space with rear seats up (Grandis stil has loads), and iii) image is too mumsy! but if image doesn't matter to you, why not look at it.
The requirement to carry 5 or 6 plus luggage also rules out cars where middle row only seats 2, e.g. Voyager or where back row is a bench and not splittable.
Citroen C4 Picasso does look interesting, but my budget was 13K for a car which I wanted to be fully loaded and have low mileage, this meant a 1-2 year old something or other, and therefore ruled out C4 and to an extent S-MAX. We did look at S-MAX just to be sure, but during the week when we HAD to make a decision, C4 Picasso was not yet available, one dealer had one in the show room, but wasn't allowing test drives. I suspect though that the back seats and luggage space would be compromised for us in terms of space. A quick look at the price list told me I would be looking at £18K minimum to get the spec I wanted, and close to £20K with S-MAX.
I think if we were a family of four, with only occasional need for backmost seats, I would have looked at the Toyoto Verso, or Mazda 5 more. Your needs and mine are different in that respect.
I once owned a Ford Scorpio Ultima 2.3 Auto, it was gorgeous to drive, fabulously equipped (this was in 1999, before fourth child and was a squeeze for 3 kids plus all their paraphernalia), and to be honest, if we had stopped at 2 kids I would not have sold it, and would now be looking for a luxury estate car, like you I always fancied Saabs, so a 9-5 Estate, or even 9-3 would have appealed. Needs must though, and we had to go to a MPV.
The Grandis takes me back a bit to something that is better to drive than an MPV is normally, a little more car like to look at, and with better practicality than a Mk1 or Mk2 Galaxy, plus excellent accomodation for 6 or 7 adults plus luggage.
I still think you have a second look at the Grandis, but I would also want (if in your shoes) to look at the following estate cars, since as you say, the need for an MPV is not proven!
BMW5 Series ( a late example of the last shape - not current)
Suburu Legacy
Saab 9-5
Very high spec version of Mondeo Estate (Ghia X, DVD, leather, diesel tiptronic etc)
I did drive a current shape Mondeo when looking for 2nd car choice, but found it rather disappointing,
Guy
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Will not sure about the diesel engine bit. Agree with the other points though. Our's is primarily for my wife and when we go out 'en famille'.
I noticed that I far prefer the power delivery of the VAG2.0d to my old BMW 3.0d. It seems to come in earlier albeit less subtle. Perhaps the one you test drove had a faulty MAF sensor. My pedals do not vibrate although it is noisy.
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We're going for a Grand Scenic. One of the most comfortable cars I've ever driven, and only 2 sprogs so small rear seats not an issue. We liked the huge boot space which is the biggest we saw without going to a "full size" MPV such as an Espace or Galaxy. Big double buggy and usually a border collie mean boot space is a prerequisite, and a lot of the midi-MPV's are completely hopeless in this department.
One of the comments above about likening this to buying a pair of shoes hit home. The Scenic was the one car we both instantly liked and seemed to tick all our boxes re practicality, comfort, refinement and styling. I guess it comes down to personal taste. If the C-Max had a bigger boot it would have been close, but the Renault's style and practicality is very convincing.
I just hope we don't come to regret it from a reliability point of view with the horror stories of dCi engine failures and electrical faults. My research on the engine problems seems to suggest they are worst on cars used only on short / local journeys and driven gently, neither of which will feature in our car's life.
It's a gamble, but what the heck?
Cheers
DP
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DP
One word of Caution. When I bought my Touran, I compared with the Grand Scenic. A few things put us off.
1. Seat room in the 2 rear seats is bad. Upside is better boot space when seats are up. I've had 7 Adults in my Touran and the legroom in the rear was no problem. Also when you close the middle seats after letting the rear passengers in, they might loose a toe or two - the seats come done hard and have some nasty big metal pins.
2. Luggage cover. There is nowhere to stow this if you have the rear seats up. Practical item
3. Steering was woolly (my personal opinion). I came off the motorway and felt I had no control over the car.
4. Gearbox was really difficult and Stiff. I had trouble changing gears in the Renault, the Touran Demonstrator we had (and our own) has a really smooth box.
Apart from that, there was little else different to choose between the Renault and the Touran, but I got a good deal (Broker) with the Touran.
Good Luck
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VW Bora (51) 2.0 SE
VW Touran (54) 1.9 TDI
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TVM - thanks for the comments.
We hadn't thought of the load cover storage issue. Good to know, thanks.
I agree the steering isn't great, but I find that on a lot of cars nowadays. Been a bit spoilt with the Fiesta and Mondeo which are both excellent in this department. If it were any other type of car it would bother me, but for what's essentially going to be a family cart-about, it's good enough. You're absolutely right though, it is detached and the assistance is well over the top. I wonder if it's possible to reduce the assistance (as a mate has just done on his Fabia vRS via VAG-COM and transformed the thing!)
Thanks for the lowdown on the third row of seats. Doesn't sound like a great design, and yes the space is limited. In our case though, they will hardly (if ever) get used. We just want the boot space that goes with the extra rear overhang on the Grand. Kiddies are still small (7 weeks and 2 yrs), and legroom in the middle row will be more than adequate for the 3-4 years we expect to keep the car.
I can't say the gear change quality on either of the examples driven so far (one petrol 5 speed, one diesel 6 speed) has been a problem. In fact for the miles of linkage obviously involved between that high set lever and the transmission way down below, I was surprised how slick it was.
My biggest potential worry about the car is still on the reliability / durability front, but we like the car itself enough to chance it. Against my religion in most cases, we'll be getting a Renault approved car from a main dealer with a good warranty on it just for the peace of mind, so there should be no excuses for problems, or at least for anything other than a prompt and free resolution of them.
To be fair, the diesel we drove had over 30k on the clock and drove beautifully. The interior also looked like new. I know 30k isn't a lot, but it should be enough for any fundamental build quality or trim durability issues to be visible, and I couldn't see any. The engine also pulled like a train and sounded sweet.
Cheers
DP
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DP,
No problem, I hope you get on well with it. If you don't use the rear seats much, you'll be fine. I'd say that with our two kids, we only use the extra seats 5% of the time. But, critically it's the adults that use them, when we go on a family trip with the in-laws (outlaws!). We took 5 adults and 2 kids to France and back, and with the legroom in the back of the Touran it was no problem.
I'm also remembering that the middle row of seats is also slightly further forward in the Scenic than the Touran. You're gonna have tons of Boot space! I've twice taken the middle seats out of my Touran for trips to the dump and it is cavernous. I think you can remove the Scenic's seats.
When we made the decision, I was all for the Renault, but my practical Wife pointed out the items I mentioned, and on reflection I suppose she was right.
I will also tell you a work colleague had the 1.6 Petrol Grand Scenic for the same time (2.5 years). He's had it in for numerous problems, most concerning was the seatbelt Anchor points coming loose (Recall), and the Glass roof leaking. He regrets not going for the Diesel as uphill with his 3 kids in tow is horrible. However he's still very pleased with it.
Another colleague had the regular Scenic and has just changed to a Touran (She asked me about it as I had had mine for a while). She also has 2 kids. Her immediate comment was that the build quality of the Renault was poor, for example the seatbelts were ragged / fraying after 2 years.
So, 2 Renault tales, from different viewpoints. I have no prior experience of owning Renault.
Make the decision with your Head (and Bank Manager/Wife !)
Charles
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VW Bora (51) 2.0 SE
VW Touran (54) 1.9 TDI
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When I opened this thread, explaining why we chose a Grandis, I described the Grand Scenic as a darned fine car. It really is, and good luck. For us with 4 children two of whom are adult size we perhaps felt it a little cramped, despite this, we probably could have been pursuaded to buy it, but suffered from complete indifference from the dealer - two visits, and left our details as to spec and budget looked for, and we never got even one phone call back, plus careless talk by salesman on second visit, put the frightners on the youngest kid.
It really was laughable, the lack of interest from the dealer was completely unforgiveable and probably lost them the sale, on contrast we had three different Mitsubishi dealers on our case, looking for the right spec vehicle / right budget, calling us (I don't mind a bit of a sales pitch on the phone since it tells me they are interested, and usually leads to price negotiation in my favour). Even the dealers who were unsuccessful after we made the purchase, wished us luck and offered assistance with servicing.
Named and Shamed, the disinterested Renault Dealer was Waters on Hatfield Road, St Albans
Sound like 100% the right choice for you given the criteria described.
Guy
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>...build quality of the Renault was poor, for example the seatbelts were ragged / fraying after 2 years
Not sure this is a fair example - although from what I hear of modern Renaults, I can believe it's only an example. We have a Skoda and a Volvo, and both have outer rear belts well scuffed after years of friction with child seats of various styles and sizes. No MoT inspector has even commented on them, though, so the damage is cosmetic, not functonal - and they were probably made in the same factory as the Renault ones.
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Back to Guy's comments on whether an MPV is appropriate for a two-child family: well, a year or two ago I'd have said no, and carried on scoffing at those we know who traded in a comfortable family car for a Galaxy or an Espace the moment Child 2 was announced. A few things set me thinking differently:
Width Child 1 (now 6) is now of an age where he would like to be able to bring a school friend along on an outing. Very few conventional saloons and estates will comfortably take three boosters across the rear bench (although if anyone here has found a model of booster that makes this possible, I'm listening!)
Legroom Being a Tall Person, I take up more than my fair share of space in the front. What's left behind me can be a bit of a squash for a child on a booster, whose legs are not yet long enough for his feet to tuck under my seat. Some estates are OK here - the 9-5 and Avensis are the best I've tried - but the supposedly family-fab V70 would be viable for us only with the rare integrated boosters - and then only for two abreast.
Load carrying After years of Saab hatchbacks, I've often cursed my Volvo for its inability to carry anything bulkier than a suitcase. It will take an adult bike and a rear-seat passenger at the same time but only with a great deal of dismantling and fiddling. An estate would help here but what really got me thinking was the idea that an MPV could carry a variety of combinations of passengers and luggage, and that we'd find good uses for many of these possibilities.
The S-Max It took this to crystallize my thinking into something I might actually think of buying. It's stylish and makes a statement that is more "We're an active family that does adventurous things" than "We're defeated parents who exist to drive our children everywhere". (I know - daft innit, but there you go!) It will take three across the middle, adults or children on boosters in any combination, even if all three are my size. Its rear five seats fold in 32 (2 to the 5th!) permutations, and I can think of at least seven that we'd actually use. Even as a four-seat load carrier, it works better than most estates because it's taller. And it does all this in no more roadspace and on no more fuel than the big estates we'd been considering.
As you know, I've since looked at the C4P and the Grandis as well, and appreciated different strengths and weaknesses in those. But after all that, I can't help looking at an ordinary estate car - even a 9-5 at the super-friendly Saab dealer I've dealt with for 12 years - and think that I'd feel I was missing out if I had one, because any car is only as good as the things it allows you to do, and I really think we could do more with the right MPV.
Can I have my honorary diploma from the Chartered Institute of Marketing now?
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I've been thinking of what car to go for next and I quite fancy the idea of an S-Max to replace my 530d estate.
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I picked up my S-Max on Friday and I'm delighted with it. It was the perfect car for me, an MPV for people who don'y really want one. It is a very large car but hides it really well. It handles well, is well equipped and according to the fuel computer, I've got over 47MPG during the first 300 miles. Impressive for such a large car, even if you assume 10% over-optimism.
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>>I picked up my S-Max on Friday and I'm delighted withit. It was the perfect car for me, an MPV for people who don'y really want one.
Would have been our first choice, but just too far over budget this time round.
Definitely straight to the top of the list for next time though.
Cheers
DP
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TVM and Guy,
Thanks for the comments and helpful information.
TVM, I've heard Renaults are a bit of a mixed bag as well. My aunt has a Clio 1.5 dCi 86PS which has been completely faultless, but a friend with another example of the same car has had quite a few problems. I guess it's a case of yer pays yer money.... We really do like the car though and are prepared to give it a go. We will be taking a watertight warranty though.
Guy, our experience with the Renault dealer couldn't be more different so far. Salesman has been a pleasure to deal with, and has bent over backwards to help. He spent a good hour with us going through the various seat combinations, helping us to fit child seats, waiting patiently while we tried various things in the boot, and answering all our questions honestly and without the usual mindless quoting of specs.
We were allowed to test the first car (petrol) unaccompanied for as long as we liked.
When we confirmed it was definitely a diesel we wanted, he offered to bring a diesel to our house on Saturday for us to try. He turned up when promised, and we had another good, long test drive. We then decided on a 1.9 rather than the 106 PS 1.5 dCi we drove. The 1.5 was amazing for such a small engine, but we felt it was only just enough rather than ample, and would struggle with any more of a load in the car. No problem, he said. Took the details of what we wanted and told us he'd call us Tuesday after ringing around to source something.
This is Thomas Day Motors in Fleet. If their aftersales is as good as their sales, we're on to a winner.
A classic illustration of how the quality of a dealer can affect the perception not just of a car, but the brand as a whole. I don't understand why some manufacturers don't take it more seriously.
Thanks again for the help. Will keep you posted.
Cheers
DP
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To add to a slightly old thread, we should pick up our Grandis in the coming week - we opted for an 06 reg diesel Elegance over a 56 reg Warrior. The Warrior was £1,000 more, but lost the rear air vents and we already have an in-car DVD. Plus we like sunroofs!
I did prefer the ride in the Warrior though - fair more secure, is that just the bigger wheels?
Our criteria was that we needed a six seater with a boot. My wife is disabled and we need space behind the third run of seats to carry her mobility scooter thingy. It fits, just. It just wouldn't fit in a Zafira or Galaxy.
Most of the time we'll use it as a five seater and pop the back seats up whenever we have 6 in the car. Plus it'll be nice to have the extra space instead of neatly packing everything into our Citroen C3.
I did have a TDI Octavia once, and i missed the oompth that a turbo diesel has.
Slight snag - mrs mare didn't like the colour (a dull dark blue), so it's being resprayed in Colt Blue, i.e. the same colour as the Blue special edition Colts. Plus tints to the rear windows, so it should look fairly smart, if not unique.
The lighter / power socket is in a daft place though - right next to the steering wheel. Neither us or the dealer could find a socket in the back, so i was getting one fitted for the DVD player. If there is one in the back, please let me know!
First big trip next weekend - Bath to Cornwall, a trip that would have filled me with dread in the C3, and to be frank my R reg Almera site car. Really looking forward to it.
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You are getting an 06 reg car resprayed a different colour?????
How much did that cost you?
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Bobby,
Just under £3k. Granted a high cost, but it'll make mrs mare very happy, and that for me is good value.
I know that a lot of people won't get it, but i nearly lost her earlier on in the year (for the third time in three years), and if she wants her/our new car in a particular shade of blue, i'll make it happen: some girls like diamonds, other like expensive holidays. Mine likes a diesel MPV in colt blue, so that's what she gets.
Yet to see the result mind..........
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Good for you!! (If I could add a smilie icon, I would)
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mare, i got one of those dark blue ones your mrs doesn't like. I tried to get the cheaper purple coloured ones but my mrs refused and insisted on dark blue!! as you say, if getting the right colour keeps SWMBO happy then that is a small price to pay. LOL.
got the diesel elegance as well and really didn't consider the warrior. apart from paying a huge amount on the dvd thing it also doesn't have stability control and as you say misses out on one of the sunroofs.
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Looking at an earlier post,a reference was made to a fiat multipla.For what it's worth I have a new model 2004 jtd I bought new,now got 19000 on the clock and it has been faultless.
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With reference to 'mare', any man who is prepared to look after his wife in such a way is to be admired...but would it not have been better value to buy a newer car in the right colour?
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Why thank you Espada - but the Grandis doesn't come in this colour at all - it's a colour for a special edition Colt.
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What a touching story Mare - so many people have their priorities wrong nowadays but not you. Please give your wife my very best wishes for her future health.
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"it'll make mrs mare very happy, and that for me is good value.
I know that a lot of people won't get it, but i nearly lost her earlier on in the year (for the third time in three years), and if she wants her/our new car in a particular shade of blue, i'll make it happen: some girls like diamonds, other like expensive holidays. Mine likes a diesel MPV in colt blue, so that's what she gets."
I get it. Small price to pay. Brought a tear to my eye - good luck to you both - and enjoy the car, and each other.
--
Phil
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Another thing that I find slightly strange is that there is aircon in the back but you can't have any heating (except as an extra).
why can't you have the aircon on and turn it to hot.....or have i missed something?
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westpig - doesn't work. It either blows out aircon'd cold air, or just air at the ambient temperature.
strange but true and a little annoying although not really a problem just getting heat from the front.
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Perhaps out of budget here, but if I was buying a full size diesel MPV, it would be none of the above.
Hardly surprising given the review I gave it at the following link, it would be one of these superb machines:
www.honestjohn.co.uk/road_tests/index.htm?id=105
It'd swallow the mobility scooter, come back for more, and still carry a full compliment of third row passengers in air conditioned, plenty of room, comfort.
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Following various comments (including mine) on the Grandis diesel, I noticed this written about Mitsubishi's Outlander, which currently uses the same diesel as the Grandis:
The 138bhp VW engine will not live long in the nose of the Outlander, as a decidedly more powerful 150bhp 2.2 litre PSA Peugeot-Citroën motor is to replace it in November.
If that means the Grandis will get it too - and if Mitsubishi can install it properly in a vehicle that wasn't designed for it, which I suspect is part of the problem - that ought to make a Grandis an attractive proposition again. I hope so - I get a little frisson when I see one, which I think means that my subconscious would rather like to have one. And it's one of those rare cars that really do look good in Ubiquitous Silver - but that's another thread.
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