Reading that thread on the new Laguna got me wondering.....
I posted on here a couple of months back wondering whether to go for a new (ish) Mondeo/Vectra or an older 7 series beemer.
We've still not made up our minds about a new car and today my thoughts turned to the French!
I've always rejected the idea of a Laguna or a C5 because of the horror stories concerning reliability. However there seems to be some consensus that the recent facelifted models have ironed out a lot of the bugs. They are also very nice well-specced cars (when they go!) and depreciate faster than the cost of a last years pop idol winners CD, so represent an excellent bargain at 12-18 months old.
What do you think, still more trouble than they're worth or are they finally worth taking a chance on?
Steve
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If it helps, our 2 year old Megane CC (18k miles) has been into the garage on fewer occasions than our one year old BMW 535d (15k miles)...the Renault dealers are more friendly as well! Interestingly, everything that has gone wrong with theBMW has been electrical :-)
We've had 3 Renaults since 1998, all used for low mileage admittedly, that have only gone to the garage for routine services. We've also had 2 BMWs and 2 Audis in the same period; both BMWs had multiple vists for warranty work, though interestingly the Audis didn't have any unscheduled work done. i personally wouldn't hesitate to buy another French car, but find yourself a good dealer just in case!!
Peter
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My 2 1/2 year old 307 1.6 110bhp Hdi has been to the garage for servicing and the following work has been done under warranty. Mileage 28K
a. New computer ICE LCD screen (display broke up when in hot sunlight)
b. Passenger's sun visor bracket broke
c. Reversing light switch broke
Have replaced all 4 tyres. 55mpg overall. Well pleased so far
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Peugeot Partner Combi 2.0HDI, four years old, 45,000 miles. It's had:
1. Normal servicing, plus two new tyres, and a cambelt.
2. Spring cups added to front coil springs (recall).
3. Replaced the indicator stalk under warranty (I didn't even realise there was anything wrong with it, but it did feel different afterwards).
That's it.
48 mpg average, including quite a bit of towing. Very happy so far.
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Twenty month old Berlingo 1.9D, now at around 25k. Similar experience to Baskerville, normal servicing plus two recall/tech bulletin items; one was airbag unit cannot remember the other. Electronic component in brake circuit replaced under warranty following a spurious master STOP warning. No showstoppers. One or two niggles
Slightly less happy story with 2000/X Xantia 2.0 Hdi/110, now on 90k. Pretty much OK to 75k (dragging brake, stereo speaker and one or two niggles d/w under warranty). Cam belt replaced as part of 75k service jumped at around 80k. Dealer had strongly resisted my advice to replace crank pulley (see CBC breakdown) and took most of flack/cost for this, but car off road for three weeks. Since then valving fault on HP side at 82k cured for £200. LP fuel pump failed at 87k, another £200ish. Also had a wnidow lift motor fail. Probably a few niggly things I've forgotten. When it's on song it drives like a dream but the last 15k miles have dented my confidence in it and the Berlingo gets all the best gigs now!!
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I wouldnt say they are inherrantly unreliable, but the build can be inconsistant, which is why you get many people who have reliable experiences with them and many who have nightmares, whereas with a car such as a Subaru, you have a vast majority who have trouble free experiences and a tiny minority at best who have issues.
Its a calculated risk, but they dont often fall apart.
My father ran a MK1 Citroen XM 2.0 auto to 35k in the early 90's with no issues whatsoever and a XM 2.0 turbo auto estate to 55k in the mid 90's also without any problems, despite their reputation for unreliability. My dad said he had more fears about owning a Ford than anything french.
I for one owned one french car and it put me off for life - I didnt know an oil filter COULD explode until I owned a Renault, who would have thought!
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Just out of interest Baskerville, why a new cam belt on a 45k HDi? I thought the interval was 100k (though we had one on our now 95k Xantia at 72k - just for "peace of mind"
Incidentally, on my previous Berlingo which also did 45k I had exactly same experience as you -except for cambelt!
The indicator stalk was apparently a design fault and they automatically replaced them at sevice time - they had a tendency on some cars to flick over to indicating opposite way on cancelling one direction
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Phil
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My family have owned numerous French cars over the years Renault 4,5,11,16,18,Fuego,19,21,Laguna,Espace,Clio and Citroen DS,Xsara and Xantia.. As company cars I have had BMW,Ford Vauxhall, and VW.
Personally I have always had cars to starship mileage i e 130,000 plus on most of the above, even my dads earlier Renaults did over 100,000 miles before he got rid of them.
I have found French cars no less reliable that the so called reliable German stuff in fact my Beemer had seven unshedualed visits in its first year for electrical problems.
Most relable car was a Renault 19 that did 260,000 miles before it was crunched this year and put beyond economic repair. The only major expence was a new clutch at 165,000 miles apart from that it was all routine servicing.
As with all cars choose carefully and get a good dealer personally I steer clear of big city dealers and prefer to use smaller garages where you can often speak to the mecanic who works on your car.
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1.6 C4 VTR+ diesel hatchback. 1 year old, just been serviced. Only recalled for air bag adjustment. No problems at all (touch wood)
Impressive build quality
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Mates 206 is in the unreliable category.
Its a 52 plate 1.1 that has practically been replaced. It has had a new gearbox and clutch after the gearbox fell out reversing from his drive, new coil packs, starter motor, radiator, head gasket and now the water pump has just failed taking the head and the gasket this time. Its only done 40K miles!! On top of this the electrics have a mind of their own, more rattles than you can shake a stick at and it uses oil much more than is healthy! He bought it from new and it was dealer serviced for the first two years!!
I would be inclined to suggest he got a bad one, but a guy at work has had similar issues with overheating and headgasket as well as the engine management continually playing tricks on him!
When I was at uni, one of my flatmates had a 10 year old 205 that kept on going despite abuse as did his 309 that proceeeded it (which he still has), only things that were annoying was picking up parts of the dashboard that kept dismantling itself after a trip down staffordshires finest country roads!!
I have little faith in PSA or Renault and that view is unlikely to change. Renault have suffered more than a 20% reduction in sales this year and Citroen are cheap for a reason!! Wonder if this is a coincidence that fleet and private buyers have eventually seen the light and took their business elsewhere.
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Same here - me and my family have had numerous French cars including a Renault 5, Citroen BX 1.4 which did about 120,000 until it broke, a Renault Laguna which is now on 60,000 miles and has had nothing go wrong with it ever (which is quite surprising given their poor reliability record), a Peugeot 306 (kept for 3 years and 20,000 miles) and no problems except a water pump and some new tyres. In March this year purchased a new Citroen C4. Had one problem with a faulty engine tempertature sensor which was fixed under warranty one morning and a broken electric window switch within a few days of getting it - no other problems as yet with nearly 13,000 miles on the clock.
I dont think to be honest they have any more problems than most other cars. I know my mates Focus ST, 2 years old, has had a few problems as has another friends Passat and more recently Volkswagen Polo. Electrics seems to be the worst problem areas in most cars. Just usually so happens French cars come with more gadgets and thus more to break.
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Just usually so happens French cars come with more gadgets and thus more to break.
Oh no! From a sample of one, admittedly, I had a poverty spec '87 R21 Savanna. Despite the poverty, the fan didn't work (half a day and some emery paper and a spare switch), the lights on one side went (not the fuse) & iC'Trc (I cannot recall correctly!)....
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Yes
Peugeot 306 1.6 XS, bought in 2000 with 23k from pug main dealer.
Final straw at 73k was head gasket failure caused by water pump disintegration (no temp gauge warning). Cost 1200 euros to put right - and ruined a world cup holiday in Germany!
Over the previous 6 years, despite religious servicing:
persistent airbag fault
water leak into passenger side
unexplained poor starting and running when wet and cold
starter motor
lambda sensor
failed cat at 58k
radiator
poor quality interior fittings
rubbish radio reception - even in M25!
dodgy gearshift
thermostat
It was a lovely drive, but the most unreliable car i've ever owned!
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1997 Pug 306 DTurbo - had for 6 years and 120k miles (now on 133k):
Rear brake cylinders required at 72k
Power steering pump required replacement at 95k
Remote plip bust at 100k (battery drains - possible to "hack" if you are good with a soldering iron)
Leccy window bust at 100k (annoying and seems impossible to permanently fix)
Rocker head gasket at 120k (slight oil leak)
Cam Pulley at 120k (caused by mechanic not tightening properly after cambelt change!)
Radiator at 120k
Aircon pipes corroded (very expensive to get replacements)
Eats glowplugs every two years
Had the usual brake disc/pads/shoes and exhausts - but these are consumables. Still on original clutch.
Its never let me down and has always started first time in 6 years and is a hoot to drive. Reliablity is key to me and the fact I can rely on it not to break down is the reason I've kept it. I've driven this car hard but never replaced any suspension components. Compared to a friends Fabia VRS which had to have a wheel bearing at 13k, this seems good! Most of the above i dont mind as its cheap to service myself for <50 quid and I love the thing! I hear new 206's and 307's have nightmare electricals... I work for an automotive electronics consultancy and some of the software I see is genuinely scary!
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My recent experience is that French manufacturers still have a long way to go as far as reliability and qualtiy are concerned.
I live in France, which might be a reason to buy French: plenty of dealers if you need a part or (heaven forbid!) a service, lots of wrecks in scrapyards, easy to sell secondhand etc. Despite this, I refuse to buy French now because of a series of disasters with all three French makes; Citroen seemed to be the least crappy, but that's not saying much. Add the snotty dealers who consider that they don't need to make an effort because all Frenchmen naturally want to buy French cars and you get the picture.
I was recently looking for a mid-size MPV; I bought Toyota after having rejected the Nissan Note (despite having had excellent service from three previous Nissans) because it has a Renault engine. That shows just how much I have learnt to avoid French cars; well-designed and VERY badly built.
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54 reg Citroen C3 1.4 petrol SX
Brake pad came loose - i suppose could have happened on any car
Lost power steering a couple of times. Switch off and switch on, it comes back
Locks seem to have a life of their own
Biggest niggle though is that there are lots of bits of trim which are just not up to the kids abuse. We have three bits of trim that we keep in the glovebox because they keep falling off. Poor design in my view.
The dealer was a crook as well, but that's not unique to Citroen.
All in all, it's a lovely comfortable car that takes us and the kids around in comfort, if a bit gutless. It's just a shame that it's not screwed together as well as my R reg Almera is.
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As I said, inconsistant cars. Shame really because they do come up with some great designs, esp Renault.
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My fourpenn'orth: Peugeot 306 Hdi X-reg, owned from 30,000 miles to present 75,000 over 2½ years. Two new tyres, front discs/pads, rear pads, indicator/light stalk, regular servicing. That's it! A lovely drive, 54 m.p.g. - love the car and can't think what I'll be replacing it with when the time comes.
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205 - got it at 95k, put 60k on it, then it went to the scrappy. Only needed a new battery and a rear exhaust section during its life with me.
Now have a 405 TD - on 176k - I've put 11k on since buying it. In the last 10 weeks I've done four trips in which I have done 700 miles in one day in it. The headlining is drooping on the passenger side. It's a star in my book. Bought it for £620.
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My experience with a Pug 106, a couple of 306's and a Renault Megane could be summarised thus:
Mechanically superb.
Good quality (rot resistant) bodywork
Carp trim
Dreadful wiring / electrics.
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Citroen C8 HDI Auto, owned from new, now 3.5 years old, but only 25,000 on the clock. Problems include occasionaly temperamental electric doors, and a weakness with the rear wash-wipe - the hose becomes disconnected allowing the electric latch to the rear hatch to become soaked, and hence fail. Mechanically it's been fine and is an incredibly practical holdall. Nippy too, since I had it chipped.
I ran a BX GTI between 1989 and 1993, putting 100,000 on the clock. This never let me down, apart from when the clutch cable failed - handily within quarter of a mile of the garage I used at the time, allowing me to limp there. Yes, it felt flimsy, but this was because it was light which helped performance and economy. Of all the cars I've had, this is the one with the best memories. Had an opportunity to buy it back a few years ago and turned it down - something I've regretted ever since.
Mum had a basic 1993 ZX 1.9D from new which we bought off her and later sold on to a friend, and it's still running very well, almost 14 years on.
My experiences with VW have been far worse than any French car I've had.
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Citroen Picasso HDi 03, 45,000 miles in 2 years from new. Faulty fuel pump replaced under warranty. General build quality felt and looked poor but fuel pump apart, nothing broke or fell off.
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OP is considering a Laguna? Or C5?
The weak spot with French cars does seem to be electrics - that's where we've had niggles with our five-year-old Scenic, and appears to be the main problem area with other French car owners I know. That said, one of those owners is on his 17th Renault and remains loyal to them.
When the French buy cars, they buy basic-spec manual transmission diesels and run them into the ground. If you're happy to do likewise, a Laguna could be an OK bet, but check it carefully for electrical faults before you buy. I understand the temptation: whereas a four year old Mondeo would cost 13,000 euro here in Ireland, you can have a Laguna from a main dealer at almost half the price!
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So Bromptonaut will you be selling the Xantia? What spec is it?
Current car Xantia hatch is fine just usual Hydractive issues - not as soft as should be otherwise would only let it go for a the same spec estate or a C6. No kidding! Well maybe a RHD DS...
Previous car was a 405 GTX TD, only broke down once when the battery failed.
Steve.
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Xantia HDi.
Buy a Citroen and get to know the local GSF staff better...
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The Xantia we had for twelve years was the best car I have ever owned, certainly the most reliable. Current C5 we have had for almost 4 years has not been so fault free but certainly not disastrous. It is a much more complex car and there is a lot that can go wrong with it though.
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I can only comment on Renaults as other french cars have been too long ago or are too old.
My '04 Megane is on 24K has only been into the dealer for one unscheduled visit - to sort out the sticking sunroof which took them all of 10 mins. It's well built although in one or two places the quality of the plastic used is adequate rather than being great. The Dynamique trim looks great and seems to be hard wearing. Negatives are few but irritating - the bizarre and unnecessary auto wipers plus changing the front bulbs spring to mind.
Renault's dark patch in my opinion was 2000 - 2003 when quality control seemed to be poor on some models. It is a great shame that such a competent car as the MK2 Laguna suffered a poor record to begin with. However later models were much improved - someone posted a link to the ADAC survey a while back which supports this.
The CEO's crack down on quality control is bearing fruit, borne out by the impressive reliability so far for the Modus and Clio 3. This is supported by a contact 'on the inside'. Warranty claims are declining, although he did concede from a less than satisfactory position. Long may it continue.
Buy as late as possible, with history and warranty. Also make sure your local dealer is competent.
In some respect the electrics are quite durable. SWMBO put my jeans in the wash a while back with out checking the pockets. The Renault card was in the back pocket and got a good wash. Anyway I removed the battery and put the card in the airing cupboard overnight. Still works perfectly...
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So Bromptonaut will you be selling the Xantia? What spec is it?
LX/Forte estate in storm grey. Bit over specced as subs bench/ car/station hack but it's mine and it's paid for!!
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When the French buy cars, they buy basic-spec manual transmission diesels and run them into the ground. If you're happy to do likewise, a Laguna could be an OK bet, but check it carefully for electrical faults before you buy. I understand the temptation: whereas a four year old Mondeo would cost 13,000 euro here in Ireland, you can have a Laguna from a main dealer at almost half the price!
People would pay 13K euros for a four year old Mondeo?
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1994 M Citroen ZX TD Volcane Bought in 2002 at 75k
Still have the car, coming close to 125k miles now - been unused for approx 8 months in the four and half years I've had it.
Lost the back end on a greasy corner at work (went off road into the ditch) - bought 1 petrol volcane for £100 - fitted body bits I needed - wing bonnet, grill, front bumper and both headlights / indicators and fogs- fitted parts myself and got local garage to sprayed up (cost £250 to get back on the road.
Been very reliable - has had the following replaced:
1 set of glow plugs
Battery
P/ S pump (pulley on this got noisy).
Front & rear discs
Clutch
Heater blower motor
Niggles include:
Central locking plays up on rear n/s lock.
The biggest problem has been due to my negligence - not changing the cambelt (stupidly believed the last owner changed it) - The belt snapped at 98k, bent two valvs, and snapped the cam - this was back in 2004.
Kept the car as I knew the car - engine was in good nick - nippy (not bad on fuel) - but not the best. approx 40 mpg mostly inner city with some a roads - although this has dropped from 42 - 43.
Get about 47 on a run.
Excellent handling - although could probably do with new shocks/springs (feels a bit softer then I remember) - although I do enjoy the handling - so wear and tear.
Rear calper is catching a bit - mainly due to it standing for approx four months earlier this year due to my off roading experience.
No idea what to replace it with - like diesels - but terrified of newer ones. - Although PSA diesels still seem fairly reliable compared to Ford / Merc.
Do need a bigger car.
Want good handling -
Decent spec
Reliable
Manual.
Was looking at a 5 series - although sport models do seem dear. SE models are a bargain in comparison. Sport Manual with decent mileage impossible to find. (wary of expensive turbo wear on BMW Diesels.
Wouldn't mind a 156 face lift.- pretty reliable cars (diesels)
Mondeo - tdci seems patchy in reliability - woudn't mind a st tdci! I think the 2.2 doesn't seem as bad - don't hear many horror stories with these.
Looking for 306 hdi for my sister currently.
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French cars seem to be a bit of a mixture as far as reliability is concerned, but at the end of the day are probably no more or less reliable than the likes of Ford, Vauxhall or VW et al. I'm on my second Peugeot in 6 years of driving- had a 1991 309 1.9d for nearly three years and ran it for nearly 30k with no problems whatsoever apart from a flat battery one freezing cold winter's morning, that's the only time it let me down.
Current car is a 1994 306TD which has suffered problems which seem to be common with 306's- radiator leakage, head gasket failure and leaking PAS rack. No electrical problems though, despite it's 187k and 13 years.
Thinking of a 306HDi as my next car, although I'm a bit worried about repair costs associated with these common rail diesels as they are much more complicated than the 'old school' diesels like mine with lots more to go wrong. But they are quieter and more fuel efficient- 650 miles to the tank by all accounts for the HDi 306 compared with 550-570 for the old XUD.
Martin
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French cars seem to be a bit of a mixture as far as reliability is concerned, but at the end of the day are probably no more or less reliable than the likes of Ford, Vauxhall or VW et al.
In the main I would tend to agree with this. People have been spoiled by the almost indestructability of a lot of Japanese and higher-end German vehicles, and by comparison the French cars seem weak. That said, there are no really bad cars any more in reality and, early 2000 Renaults excepted they seem fairly reasonable in the main, about the same as Ford/VW etc in the "average" category.
The comment about French buyers buying base-spec cars and running them into the ground would explain an awful lot -- why would the electrics be well-developed if the majority of the cars they make won't be using them? Bit like the 1980s Nissan manual gearboxes, which were a relative weak-spot on an otherwise rock-solid car -- most of the cars they were making were autos, which were a lot better.
Yes French cars can be a bit plasticky, but then again they are cheap -- what do you expect? As a Korean car owner I can understand -- who cares if the underlying car is tough?
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Models vary of course but French cars are perfectly all right if looked after by French mechanics. Same applies to Italian cars. People bind on about how awful Fiats are but in Italy they are not seen like that.
Can you imagine how French Mini owners - the Mini was fashionable in France - used to feel when they started acting up? 'British cars are unreliable and appallingly put together'.
This is a non-subject.
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Can you imagine how French Mini owners - the Mini was fashionable in France - used to feel when they started acting up? 'British cars are unreliable and appallingly put together'.
But British cars were largely unreliable and appallingly put together!
The comment about French mechanics doesn't really wash -- Hondas aren't suddenly troublesome because their owners aren't taking their cars to Japan for their 10K service....
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Had mixed experience personally. Girlfriend used to own a Pug 205D which now belongs to my sister - never had a problem. Now owns a Clio DCi, which seems to be cursed - the EGR valve was replaced at £150 last month, and the engine's still running rough, much to my annoyance. Have also had problems with the supplying dealer (not a Renault main agent admittedly). Am pushing her to replace it with a petrol Getz.
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They're absolutely abysmal. Needing attention every 5 seconds, never starting, always leaving you stranded somewhere, nothing electrical ever working. Yep, keep up the urban myths please! It's keeping my Citroens nice and cheap:-))
200,000 miles in the last 10 years in a variety of Citroens none of which were less than 7 years old, has seen me carted home once - and that was just a PAS return pipe that had failed. My last Xantia failed twice in 40k miles - but it had the decency to do so within a limpable home distance. My current Xantia has covered 45,000 miles in 2 years and never failed to proceed (grabs desk hard) - and has just been MOT'd for the expense of a new exhaust section (100k miles / 10 years on the original). Shocking reliability, if you ask me! Oh, and it only cost 1200 quid...... ha ha ha ha ha!!!!!
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RichardW
Is it illogical? It must be Citroen....
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Good to hear Richard, they're still generally unreliable tho, no urban myth! :) £1200 sounds a lot for a 7+ year old Citroen?
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Citroens are an interesting case. I see no evidence that they're any worse than Peugeots (and indeed they use the same technology), yet Pugs hold their value and have a generally good reputation among the masses but Citroens are seen almost as a pariah by many. Odd.
If I were to buy a French car it would be a Citroen, no question. Even when it comes to styling Citroen have been quietly making well-styled cars for a few years now while Pug and Renault have totally lost the plot and have been producing some quite offensive rubbish to my eyes.
Cits are clearly a lot better than their reputation suggests. Other French cars are overpriced for the above reasons whereas Citroens are a bargain IMO. I see them in the same way I view the Korean cars, and older Nissans/Mazdas/Mitsubishis. No-one else wants them, and they're cheap as a result, but there's not much wrong with them, so they're the ones I'd go for. Forget the image cars (Pug/Renault, VW etc etc).
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"Renault's dark patch in my opinion was 2000 - 2003 when quality control seemed to be poor on some models."
Xileno puts his finger on it, as usual. I had seven big family Renaults between 1980 and 2001 - all very relioable over high mileages. With a new job in 2001 and a better salary but no company car, I had to buy my own and so have had cars from the Fatherland since then, because of the hoirrific depreciation of big French cars - no doubt due to bad experiences of them by others.
What will be interesting is if the better reputation of newer Renaults, and Citroens if most Citroen-owning Backroomers' experience is typical, meanas that they will in future hold their value better - and VAG cars not so well (though again mine have been fine).
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Limited experience of French cars. Father had two 16s in the 70s. From what I remember never put a foot wrong and were supreme in the comfort dept. SWMBO had a perfectly horrid Company 106, whilst reliable felt as it was made from Marshmallow and paste but again comfy seats and superb ride. (outclassing various BMWs in those departments). Leaked like a sive from day one. Colleague in work has just bought a brand new Megane (had it two weeks) Leaks like a sive (!) and the gearknob has been replaced under warranty (again !). Indifferent dealer, she went to them on price and ends up with a major commute when it goes in as they insist it goes to them for warranty work.
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>"they insist it goes to them for warranty work."
Can a mfr/dealer legally insist on this?
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I don't think so but she has complied so-far. Novelty will soon wear off though.
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Big french cars have always depreciated faster than a falling brick. But that's less to do with the quality of the car and more to do with the crazily snobby large car market and alleged 'image' - whatever that is.
At the mid and lower range, Citroen in particular have pushed for market share quite aggressively. You can only play that strategy for so long without impacting on residuals.
I'm not really sure that depreciation is that much of an issue anyway, although I never was any good at accountancy. When I looked at the Megane I also considered the Golf but the Renault was much better value to start with. Far more car for the money.
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" Big french cars have always depreciated faster than a falling brick. "
Long may it continue, as I REALLY REALLY want a C6 :-))) Don't have £40k laying about though... :-((
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RichardW
Is it illogical? It must be Citroen....
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I agree. Keep up the rubbish about Citroens being poor quality. That way i can continue to buy brand new ones at £6000 off list price. In nearly 50,000 miles in my '03 C5 HDI nothing much has gone wrong. No rattles, nothing broken, never let me down...rides like a Rolls Royce. I love it! My mates BMW 5 series has been in for repair 11 times in its first year. Q.E.D.
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Many thanks for all the replies!
Overall then I think we can take it that if we buy as late a model as poss, maybe one with as few fripperies as possible, do the usual commonsense checks, pay particular attention to the electrics, then bargains are to be had!
......never used the word '"fripperies" before!
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The question infers that French cars have always been unreliable so you may be starting from the wrong premise?
However just to say that while the Laguna II has had it's fair share of problems as has the Espace, the Megane and Scenic are better and the Clio better still, our Clio has been superb and it is not unique.
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This forum often debates the reliability or otherwise of French and Italian cars. We get the usual round of anecdotal responses along the lines of 'My uncle Bert had a Citroen for 876k miles and it never broke down once', or some such.
The reality is that most modern cars are very reliable. A small percentage are unreliable or troublesome. Most manufacturers produce an average number of these duds. Some manufacturers, in particular the Japanese, produce significantly fewer unreliable cars than average. Some others, eg Land Rover, the French and the Italians produce significantly more unreliable cars than average. This is confirmed by dozens of ownership surveys, in various countries over many years, which together constitute a mountain of evidence.
If you buy Japanese, your chances of owning an unreliable car are very small indeed. If you buy French, you have a significantly larger, but still small chance of owning an unreliable car. That's all.
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P Reg 406 2.1 TD Estate used as taxi for 230,000 miles in West Sussex and back and forth to airports.
Serviced every 6000 miles using Millers oil.Cambelt was replaced every 80,000.
Sold it on after 3 years still on original clutch and exhaust and running as good as ever although it was quiet heavy on brake discs and pads.
Never broke down or gave any problems except for bulbs,there always seemed to be one that needed replacing ,more often than not a headlight.
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Peugeots and Citroens have long had a reputation for longevity and racking up high mileages, particularly the diesels and the bodywork on PSA cars has generally seemed less prone to rust than Fords and Vauxhalls when you turn the clock back a decade or so. The bodywork on my 1994 306 looks almost like new, despite its 187k and the car drives as good as it looks. I've seen many Fords, Vauxhalls etc of a similar age with half the mileage and they are rusting away like nobody's business. I don't think I've ever come across a rusty Peugeot or Citroen- I saw a D reg 205 on the A303 today and the car could have easily passed for one a quarter of its age.
Martin
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I inherited an AX 954cc Elation from my daughter nearly 4 years ago after she had used it as a 'studentmobile' in Manchester. It was in a right old state being totally neglected but after a little TLCI inc a full service and cam belt change it has jbeen absolutely great and has just topped 90,000 miles.
Since then I have clocked up over 20,000 trouble free miles and it is regularly used as a workhorse re trips to the local rubbish tip eyc and being worth only a couple of hundred quid I can leave it anywhere and no self respecting 'tea leaf'' gives it a second glance!
It has no problems at MOT time and I will hang on to it for as long as I can. It was meant to be temp transport until I bought my next new car and the money I have saved in the interim will ensure that my eventual replacement will be something very tasty! You know, I think I even love this car!!
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PSA Peugeot / Citroen where one of the manufacturers who saw the benefit in car body rust prevention & started hot dip galvanising the bodyshells form the mid to late 1980s.
They are still using galvanised metal now but instead of a hot dip process they use pre galvanised steel instead & punch the panels out.
Audi & Fiat where doing the same galvanising process around that late 1980s time too.
I think Vauxhall started galvanising with the launch of the mk 4 Astra, Ford are still catching up, that's why some mk1 Focus & 3 year old Mondeo's still have tin worm problems in doors & tailgates if water gets behind the ( defective ) seam sealer.
Only time I see rusty Peugeot / Citroen cars ( apart form standard built in Saxo chassis rail rot ) is poorly repaired accident damage or owner neglect.
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When I looked at the Megane I also considered the Golf but the Renault was much better value to start with. Far more car for the money.
I am toying with the idea of a C4 HDI with the Electronic Gear Shift, and this too is tremendous value compared to say a Golf TDI with a DSG gearbox, even before the haggling.
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I know, tempting isn't it. Even if you get a few more problems you've saved a lot of money which helps to smooth these things over. Having said that, VW reliability appears not to be too hot these days if experiences onthis forum are representative - although my VW's have generally been OK.
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The mileages seem lowish to me who when an impoverished parent I used to used Volvos. I bought a 940 estate with 160k on it and it went for 3 or 4 years with the odd niggle 'till the turbo bust...... the turbo cost more than the car was worth so that was that. The point is the thread on the French cars seems to write them off at early mileages. To be fair a friend ran 2CVs all his working life as a jobbing musician and swore by them...sometimes at them I supect. I ran an old Simca1100 for a couple of years and liked it despite the bits that sometimes fell off.
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"However just to say that while the Laguna II has had it's fair share of problems as has the Espace, the Megane and Scenic are better and the Clio better still, our Clio has been superb and it is not unique."
Indeed, it's generally been the Laguna and the Espace that have let the side down. Other models have by and large been quite good. The only thing I would add is that Renault automatics have been a bit ropey, although again the tide began to turn in 2000. Stick to 2000 onwards if buying an auto would be my advice.
More changes by 2009 though... not saying any more :-0
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