Hondas the most reliable?
Apart from the problems with the Accord diesels, obviously.
Mate works for Toyota and has 6-month lease cars. One Previa had to be sent back after the engineers from HQ couldn't work out why the gearbox was making funny noises.
The exceptions that prove the rule?
PS My E class has never let me down, nor has the wifes C8. But of course, perceived wisdom says that Mercs and Citroens are 'unreliable'.
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Personal experience, I say the most reliable have been SEAT then Toyota, the least being Audi.
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If you check out Warranty Direct's Reliabilty Index, Mazda are top.
Subaru are well down, while the Vauxhall Astra mk4 matches the Mazda average.
Image and reality are often very different!
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Going over old ground here. WD isn't a measure of reliability but a combination of claims on WD warranties and the cost of repair.
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the cost of repair.
Is where the Fords and Vauxhalls do well. Although I suspect the Mondeo TDCi will put a dent in Ford's future showing.
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Yes - Subaru a low on the WD list because of the cost of parts. However, they rarely go wrong.
We have two Forester's in the family, My dad's 1999 model has been a paragon of reliability until the MoT last week. It failed on worn bushes and the original exhaust is starting to rot. Well the car is seven years old.
My three year old Forester Turbo is so far untouched by mechanics except for servicing. Its MoT is due next month - we shall see.
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What on earth do the techs and the parts departments at the jap dealers do all day? And when they are confronted with a car (25 years old obviously) with a fault, how do they remember how to fault find?
I don't beleive surveys, never have never will. ;o)
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>>If you check out Warranty Direct's Reliabilty Index, Mazda are top.>>
No:
Skoda
Mazda
Honda
Suzuki
Ford
Lexus
Hyundai
BMW
VW
Seat
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Although I suspect the Mondeo TDCi will put a dent in Ford's future showing.
Rubbish, they are rated as average at worst however they do higher than average mileage and are rather numerous so it is not a suprise that faults come to light.
Lately on here we have had two threads regarding TDCi's with possible misfueling related problems and one thread regarding Accord CDTis CR pump problems and I reckon TDCi's out number CDTis by more than two to one.
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If MOT test is anything to go by then my 1996 Toyota Carina passed the last MOT with just one bulb needing and with 120k miles on the clock. To be honest I was quite surprised because I was thinking it'll need a thing or two needing and this year all it needed was a steering rack which cost me £35 parts plus labour at a local garage. I sold the car after MOT and I was happy to tell the buyer what it needed in the MOT.
Took my 1999 Mazda 323 for MOT couple of weeks ago and it passed MOT without a hitch. Not bad for 6/7 years old car with 40k+ miles on it.
Why don't European car makers try to follow Japanese or even Korean car manufacturers. We can't say they don't want to spend lots of money on it because if money had anything to do with reliability then Korean cars would be the least reliable cars on the planet.
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Why take a car for an MOT with a blown bulb?
For what it's worth, my 1987 2CV sailed through its last MOT (well, not literally, obviously).
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My Mondeo passed its last two MOT's without a hitch. Bought it at 5 yrs old and 100k, serviced it twice, fitted a new set of brake pads and a secondhand engine mount (total spend <£50 + my time). The CV joint that was clicking slightly when I bought it is still clicking slightly 20,000 miles later. The parts are sitting in the garage waiting for me to be bothered changing them. No oil consumption, no coolant consumption, 46 mpg average, still reliable and presentable enough to drive 400 miles to meetings without having to worry.
Not all Japanese cars are reliable, and not all non-Japanese are unreliable.
Cheers
DP
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Hyundai are very good.
My mum ran a Yaris to 35k with no issues whatsoever.
My Suzuki van is coming up to 9000 miles with no problems whatsoever.
My Mazda 323 is 20 years old and all ive had go wrong with it is a need for a new thermostat which costs pennies.
Id always without fail put my money with far eastern cars, the europeans just dont cut it for me.
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Difficult to leave perodua, suzuki and hyundai out.
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I can't recall anyone I work (factory worker) with that has a Jap car and I can't recall anyone being late due to a breakdown in the last 5 years.
VWs, Pugs, Renos, BMWs, Fords, Vaux, Landrover, Rover, etc
Do your own survey at work and report back ;o)
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Rubbish, they are rated as average at worst however they do higher than average mileage and are rather numerous so it is not a suprise that faults come to light.
The survey talks about average cost of repair, not frequency. At £2k for an injection pump, that's going to whack up the average somewhat.
I wasn't implying the cars were rubbish (I'm a Ford fan) but that they're hardly £50 fixes when the CR system goes belly-up. Even if these pump issues are rare, Injector failures at £300 a pop are listed as "common faults" on many of the used car buying guides for these cars. It has happened to my neighbour's 04 TDCi 130 three times in 30,000 miles, thankfully all under warranty.
Cheers
DP
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> Not all Japanese cars are reliable, and not all non-Japanese are unreliable.
Absolutely. I think a lot of people miss the point with these surveys.
An unreliable French car (as opposed to a French car with one or two faults over its first five years) is relatively rare. The point is that an unreliable Japanese car is even rarer -- much rarer in fact.
BUT, it's probably fair to say that more than three quarters of all French cars produced give good service. And probably 9/10 Japanese cars give good service -- this leaves a fair number of both camps which are carp -- the point is that there are more French examples relative to Japanese.
You pays your money and you takes your choice.
Hyundai is an interesting case. One of the problems with modern cars is that they're becoming more and more complicated, and it's all this new technology in general that goes wrong -- not the tried and tested stuff.
Well, Hyundai vehicles are all tried and tested -- very little fancy technology, and a good base to work on (Mitsubishi-based). Whereas you do hear of horror stories regarding Fords, Vauxhalls, Peugeots, VWs and Toyotas, very little is said about Hyundai. The odd failure here and there, that's about it. Whether that's down to there being less of them around I'm not sure, but these cars very rarely seem to go bang in a big way.
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BUT, it's probably fair to say that more than three quarters of all French cars produced give good service. And probably 9/10 Japanese cars give good service -- this leaves a fair number of both camps which are carp -- the point is that there are more French examples relative to Japanese. You pays your money and you takes your choice.
Don't forget that Japanese brands sell in huge numbers in the States (the French sell minute amounts, if any at all!) and they lead the reliability surveys there too. Personally, I wouldn't drive a non-Japanese brand, as my Jap cars have been great.
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Perhaps someone with too much time on their hands should go through the Technical Matters forum and do their own survey?
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>>If you check out Warranty Direct's Reliabilty Index, Mazda are top.>>
No: Skoda Mazda Honda Suzuki Ford Lexus Hyundai BMW VW Seat
I thought that this index was not an index of reliability but of reliability and cheapness to fix - which is important because one make can be reliable than another but becuase they are dearer to fix could come lower down the rankings.
In response to dox I regularly scan the technical matters and do a quick count of car makes and it is usually dominated by european/US (Ford & GM cars) brands with the odd mention of a Jap car. When a Jap car is mentioned it is usually quite an old one as well - so that would tie in with the views above that the Japanese lead on reliability.
My personal view is that Honda are probably better than most because as we know they are a company led by engineers not accountants.
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My personal view is that Honda are probably better than most because as we know they are a company led by engineers not accountants.
And yet it's the accountants who look at the reliability stats and think they mean something. Strange, no?
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Yes - I suppose it is - I never looked at it like that before.
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Nah, accountants only look at the bottom line.
Cheap servicing = buy Vauxhall.
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Personal experience, I say the most reliable have been SEAT
You were *very* lucky. (unless you only had for a short time).
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Bro had a Cordoba for 9 years, had 2 new coils and not much in the way of servicing. Hes replaced it with a similar Cordoba vario (estate)
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The two Mazdas I owned back in the eighties were indeed very reliable - good to hear they are maintaining that standard. There are many factors to take into account when making purchasing decisions. I think that differences in reliability, whilst important, are not great enough to be deal breakers. It's rather like buying a large 4x4 solely because it might be a bit safer for its occupants in the event of a serious accident, whilst ignoring its many disbenefits.
I might regret writing that.
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If we all drove Japanese cars a lot of independent repair workshops would go bust. Talk to some of the guys who actually have to fix cars and they'll tell you that they don't see many Japanese. The downside is that when faults do occur they often take longer to diagnose because technicians are unfamiliar with fault diagnosis and may have little experience of the vehicles. Similarly aftermarket parts supply for Jap cars is generally limited to routine service parts because there is not much demand for non-service items until the vehicles get quite old. There is no equivalent to ECP or GSF, for example.
I look after a couple of Mitsubishi FTO's - both around 10 years old and thrashed mercilessly by their owners - including the odd track day. They look rather 'lightly' built but are in fact incredibly rugged. Apart from normal service items they only seem to wear out the odd drop link and ARB. The engines seem to be almost indestructable.
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Wasn't the Honda Accord voted the most reliable car of the last 10 years? I would concur I have a 98-03 model (built in Swindon) and it's been pretty good though my dads 85-89 version(built in Japan) must rated as the most reliable car I have ever known. Next was my Carina E Executive(built in Japan).
Only problems with Accord are rear calipers which seize easily when not used for a while (car stored) and the Autoboxes are not very robust, although the stupid 5year/60K service schedule may have a lot to do with that!
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BTW yes, the Carina E(urope), 3yrs old 40K, WAS built in Japan because it was the Executive model, most weren't. Only problem I had was a failing water pump(£16 but a bit of a pig of a job) and a KYB damper leaked at 110K. It was the most comfortable car I've had. I used to get a lot of hire cars as part of my job and it was ALWAYS a pleasure to get back into the Carina; everything feels 'just right' - it works with you! It's still looking good and going strong after my brother bought it for his father-in-law (93K reg, 170K)
My VWs that I have owned FEEL well built but aren't very reliable,. The Passat TDI 130 i bought new a couple of years ago had lot's of niggles - slipping clutch when cold, windscreen cracked overnight (VW would replace as over 15K), failed tailgate motor etc. etc. Did 47MPG over 36K in 10 months though!
PUG 205 GTI 1.9(90G, 3yrs old 70K) I got after graduating proved have reliable major components but lots of smaller niggles, but the unexpected lift off oversteer was the worst thing, espescially when I was tired one late, wet November night!
Vauxhall Chevette(6years old, ???K) was my first car and proved very educational - anything that could go wrong, did!
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> My VWs that I have owned FEEL well built but aren't very reliable
Yes, the old "perceived quality vs actual quality" problem.
A lot of Japanese cars feel/sound like tin cans, but one of the reasons for this is that they don't put as much sound-deadening material into the cars, one of the reasons for this, being that the engines are so refined.
I often find it ironic when journos refer to say a Honda engine as being unrefined, when in reality it's just that they're hearing more of it through the car. This gives people the impression of possibly inferior build quality.
With VW the reverse is the case -- the engines aren't especially quiet, but once they've loaded the car with foam everywhere you don't notice it.
As for old Vauxhalls, yeah I had the same education with an old Cavalier. Fun times -- it'd be easier to list the things that didn't go wrong.
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Still remember that magazine ad from 80s or early 90s by Toyota. Something like this:
"BMW claim they put 134lbs of sound deadening material into each 3 seires. Instead of making a noisy car quiet, we just make a quiet car."
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Thinking about this point it is definitely true that Jap cars have quieter engines, and it does indeed explain the lack of 'padding' you get on them - never thought about this before but it's true.
I know I can hear when my father's 1800 Golf (Petrol) pulls up 60m down the road - I can hear the engine ticking over from inside my house with doors shut. Yet my Nissan's engines have both been virtually inaudible running when I'm stood 30 FEET away.
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According to the German ADAC the ford focus is the most trouble free car 2005/6 with toyota second.
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According to the German ADAC the ford focus is the most trouble free car 2005/6 with toyota second.
I racked up 99,000 miles in 3 years in a company owned 02 reg Focus TDDi. Drove it like a typical company car (i.e usually with foot welded to floor) and all it needed apart from routine services and tyres was an auxiliary belt tensioner at about 60k. Never did less than 40 mpg, never failed to start, never let me down. Brilliant car! Colleague took the allowance and leased a mk4 Golf TDI which felt twice as expensive to sit in, but was much less reliable, particularly between 70,000 and 100,000 miles.
Cheers
DP
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Thinking about this point it is definitely true that Jap cars have quieter engines, >>
Mass generalisation!
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If you can't hear the engine neither can pedestrians. No engine noise = no soul......Rattly diesel driver ;o)
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If you can't hear the engine neither can pedestrians.
I get this all the time in the Nissan. Pedestrians don't half jump if I'm trundling along at 15mph in the tight little roads of our village and they realise there's a car behind them at the last minute.
Still rather that than the tacker-tacker-tacker of an equivalent-aged Ford Escort though!
It makes the Hyundai seem loud by comparison, and even that is quieter than a lot of other cars around.
You really notice this when you visit Tokyo. Compared to London, there are probably even more cars littering the streets everywhere, yet you never get a headache from the din of car engines in the same way you do in London. Walking past stopped cars is a steady stream of whisper-quiet purrs. A lot of that is down to the more stringent rules on looking after cars over there it has to be said.
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You really notice this when you visit Tokyo. Compared to London, there are probably even more cars littering the streets everywhere, yet you never get a headache from the din of car engines in the same way you do in London. Walking past stopped cars is a steady stream of whisper-quiet purrs.
A lot of that is down to the more stringent rules on looking after cars over there it has to be said.
...and a lot fewer diesels ;-)
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In response to dox I regularly scan the technical matters.
Quick count today (snapshot in time obvioulsy):-
Fiat 3 problems, Ford 2 problems, Citreon/Peugot 5 problems, VAG 3 problems, Renault 1 problem, GM 1 problem and Toyota 1 problem.
A pretty pointless exercise but can demonstrate what are most problemataic cars.
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In response to dox I regularly scan the technical matters.
Quick count today (snapshot in time obvioulsy):-
Fiat 3 problems, Ford 2 problems, Citreon/Peugot 5 problems, VAG 3 problems, Renault 1 problem, GM 1 problem and Toyota 1 problem.
A pretty pointless exercise but can demonstrate what are most problematic cars.
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In response to dox I regularly scan the technical matters.
Quick count today (snapshot in time obvioulsy):-
Fiat 3 problems, Ford 2 problems, Citreon/Peugot 5 problems, VAG 3 problems, Renault 1 problem, GM 1 problem and Toyota 1 problem.
A pretty pointless exercise but can demonstrate what are most problematic cars.
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Oh dear sorry guys got carried away with the post button - can someone take 2 of the above away please.
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We're constantly told jap cars are more reliable so just maybe people with no technical abillity buy them and when they go wrong book them in the garage for repair rather than ask questions in the technical forum?
How many jap car makers? How many for the rest of the world?
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You can draw a parallel with Jap motorcycles as well though.
Some of the current 600's make anything up to 200 bhp per litre, rev to 17,000 RPM yet will breeze 100,000 miles if not abused, and if serviced according to the schedule.
In my experience from working on Japanese cars and bikes, the Japanese seem to have a knack of understanding EXACTLY how expensive or strong every component needs to be to work reliably, without going over the top like the Germans often do. This lack of over-engineering can make their products less desirable, but in my experience, every part is exactly up to the task it must perform. This makes them reliable.
As a generalisation of course.
Cheers
DP
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Don't think German cars are over engineered any more. Over engineered for feel perhaps (feel sunstantial, more padding etc). If anything the Japanese cars are over engineered (no breakdowns).
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If you go to the Toyota Owners Forum, most posts are on boring things like "how much does a service cost?" or "how can I add 20inch wheels to my Yaris?" with an odd few on changing brake pads etc..
Try the French Car Club forum (? was GSF?) and the list of questions is amazing..
Of course it may be that Toyota owners actually get their cars serviced (and they are easy to service) whilst 3rd owner Citroens tend to be neglected...
I dunno...
BUT having driven UK,German, French Japanese US and lots of other makes , I never ever have had ANY running problems with Japanese cars.. which is more than I can say for the rest.
One sample does not prove anything.. of course... and I do tend to care for cars so I am atypical...
My 1947 Rover 16 was so unreliable. In 30,000 miles, new kingpins, steering worm, brake shoes, decoke, They don't build them like they used to... thank goodness:-)
madf
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So Toyota owners are boring then and ask boring questions?
Can someone please tell me what jap car technicians do all day? No on ever answers ;o(
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"So Toyota owners are boring then and ask boring questions?"
Based on the above, if exciting = lots of things going wrong - and reading the French car Forum - Citroen Xantias are the most exciting car out, challenged perhaps by Citroen XMs
:-)
madf
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They probably service them - Jap cars do not go in for extended service intervals as the germans do remember and it may be that jap dealers actually employ fewer technicians (speculation on my part only).
One thing I will say though is that whenever I book my Toyota or Honda in for a service I can get it in quickly without any delay.
Whenever I tried to get my VW's booked in it was always about 2-3 weeks before they could service or repair the car.
I have also observed that whenever I collected my car from Jap dealer if there was a queue, people were always very pleased to just have their car back serviced with no problems. Whenever I picked my car up from a VW garage the service staff always looked stressed out and I usually had to listen to people being told that they could not trace the fault or run for a few more miles and see if the problem goes away or (VAG favourite here) it's a characteristic of the car to which the complaints would come flooding back and an argument would usually take place with the service manager. It's just an observation on my part but I regularly noticed this behaviour in VW dealerships. I spent alot of time in there having warranty work done.
And as for someone suggesting that less educated people buy jap cars - what a daft thing to say. That equates to 'I'm really clever so I will buy a car that regularly breaks down because I'm clever enough to fix it' Very strange logic that one.
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What I meant was the less technically minded wouldnt ask a question on a forum, because the answer would'nt mean anything to them.
Therefore if that person beleived the hype, that person would by a car that never broke down!
A large percentage of the profit made by a mainagent is through servicing and repairs, if the japs never see a breakdown then they must overcharge for the cars in the first place, or they'd be out of business.
I've never seen a question about a Bentley asked on the tech forum, does that therefore mean they are the most reliable?
I don't beleive thr hype, sorry ;o)
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A large percentage of the profit made by a mainagent is through servicing and repairs, if the japs never see a breakdown then they must overcharge for the cars in the first place, or they'd be out of business.
Of course they overcharge, hence the reason they can sell a £10000 Almera for £7000 and still make a profit......
The cost of production of these cars makes it all the more remarkable that they're so well engineered -- VW barely make any profit at all on the sale of a Golf, say, which is quite a bit more expensive than a Corolla, which Toyota cream loads of profit from.
It's not so much that the Japanese are so great at this (the Koreans have shown that it's possible to make a well engineered car even more cheaply than the Japanese are managing), more that the European and US manufacturers are fundamentally inefficient, and as a result make less profit.
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It could just be that european manufacturers pay reasonable wages, where Japs and Koreans don't?
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I have a friend who works for Nissan in Sunderland and is paid very well. Where the Japanese score is productivity. They are almost obsessive about procedure and process, and everything is designed around each employee hour producing the maximum amount of work.
He's been there 7 years now and not even thought about looking for another job. Well paid and well treated.
Cheers
DP
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It could just be that european manufacturers pay reasonable wages, where Japs and Koreans don't?
I used to work for an engineering company who made testing equipment for things like Microwave ovens etc. The impression I got was that Sanyo and Samsung paid their staff substantially more than Philips and Electrolux, although they were more particular about working practices.
From anecdotal evidence it seems that the car plants are similar.
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It could just be that european manufacturers pay reasonable wages, where Japs and Koreans don't?
Dox
Do you know anything about the car industry? I have been inside British, American, German, French, Belgian and Japanese (in Japan) car factories. Let me tell you that the Japanese car worker is just about the best educated and best paid in the world. Japan is a very expensive country to do business in (high land prices, lack of natural resources, very high social costs - the best funded public health care system in the world and heavily subsidised public transport, I could go on). They are sucessful and cost-competitive because they see that employing lots of design and production engineers is an investment and not a 'cost'. They also don't employ hordes of bean counters and 'business managers'. Their cars are very thoroughly designed and de-bugged and the production process is highly refined. Of course Jap cars do sometimes go wrong and there are some stock faults (e.g. airflow meters on Micra's, idle air valves on any Mitsubishi, AFM's on older Lexus etc etc) but by and large most of the wrinkles have been ironed out before they hit the unsuspecting public.
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It's not so much that the Japanese are so great at this (the Koreans have shown that it's possible to make a well engineered car even more cheaply than the Japanese are managing), more that the European and US manufacturers are fundamentally inefficient, and as a result make less profit.
I don't know what your benchmark is, but in terms of operating profit as a percentage of sales, VW and Hyundai are actually quite similar to each other (both approx. 4%), Mitubishi is negative (-2%), Toyota is miles ahead (9%) and the top 2 are European - BMW and Porsche (10% and 18% respectively).
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"And as for someone suggesting that less educated people buy jap cars"
:-)
If I am amongst " the less educated", then the education system of this country produces more skilled engineers and physicists than any other country: all with second degrees...-)))
madf
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So - just to clear this up dox - are you actually saying that Jap cars are no more reliable than any other makes.
And are bought by people less technically aware than most and they just book them in for repair.
And then complete an independent survey scoring their cars reliably.
madf - if only our education system did produce the skilled engineers this country desperately needs - as you know most of our high -tech companies are screaming out for students educated in engineering and the sciences so they do not need to keep going abroad for them.
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>>It could just be that european manufacturers pay reasonable wages, where Japs and Koreans don't?<<
The Japanese economy is on eof the highest wage payers in the world. Japense car workers are some of the highest paid in the world. I agree with you on the Koreans.
You will also find that Japanese companies are not falling over each other to open factories in the eastern block like the european and US companies are. They are still looking to build factories in the US and continue to invest in Swindon and Burnaston. Having produced the best manufacturing systems in the industry cheap labour is not of really any importance to them.
Toyota in particular base most of their decisions on the long term and probably realise that it is only a matter of 10 years or so before these eastern bloc factories will start demanding higher wages.
I think it is well known by most people knowledgable of the motor industry that most car companies tend to try and copy the Toyota production system - unfortunately getting it wrong.
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Why can't we compete with Japan, because we want a good wage for our endeavours
I'm saying that no one I work with drives a Jap car, we all seen to get there everyday. Its my own survey and one I trust ;-)
If you new nothing about the workings of a car would'nt you buy the car that is perceived unbreakable and would you ask a question on a forum knowing the answer would mean nothing to you?
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If you new nothing about the workings of a car would'nt you buy the car that is perceived unbreakable and would you ask a question on a forum knowing the answer would mean nothing to you?
On the other hand, if you were to buy a car that is perceived unbreakable and it did break, you'd be more inclined to shout from the rooftops than someone who bought something perceived as less reliable though wouldn't you?
Where is the backlash? There has been one to an extent with VW as their quality slipped in the late 1990s/early 2000s.
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Why can't we compete with Japan, because we want a good wage for our endeavours I'm saying that no one I work with drives a Jap car, we all seen to get there everyday. Its my own survey and one I trust ;-) If you new nothing about the workings of a car would'nt you buy the car that is perceived unbreakable and would you ask a question on a forum knowing the answer would mean nothing to you?
>>
Or if like me,you know a lot about vehicles,work in motorsport and the last thing you want to do after a hard days work is be crawling around on yourdrive underneath your car.ps I drive a Mazda.
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"And as for someone suggesting that less educated people buy jap cars" :-) If I am amongst " the less educated", then the education system of this country produces more skilled engineers and physicists than any other country: all with second degrees...-))) madf
Grade 4 CSE English, but I get by ;-)
Don't get a job with Honda or you'll never be challenged to anywhere near your potential, their techs are just oil filter change monkeys...Apparently ;o)
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I worked at a Daihatsu dealer in the service dept collecting customers cars. In a year, I cannot recall one car that was coming in for faults, just routine servicing.
The least reliable cars were the Fourtracks but only because they got serious abuse offroad and those which obviously never left tarmac were fine.
Japanese cars are always gonna be japanese, but thats why people buy them - the japs really can make cars damn well and Ive not come across one motor trader who dislikes them for ease of sale or reliability.
The worst japanese cars are the ones where theres a European input.
The problem I have with non-jap cars is that they are more style over substance now and quality is only superficial, whereas the jap cars may well not look substantial on the outside, but all the bits you dont see will have been developed properly.
If someone told me that Toyota employ a little man whos sole purpose was to make sure that the foglight switch will ALWAYS work with no apparent shelf life, id believe it!
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Odd you should mention the aggro in VW places, type s:. The last time I went into a VW dealership, an irate guy was walking out ranting that he would never ,ever, buy another. Salesmen were even more scarce than usual thereafter.
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>>Don't get a job with Honda or you'll never be challenged to anywhere near your potential, their techs are just oil filter change monkeys...Apparently ;o)<<
What you will find is that companies that you describe dox pride themselves on being 'learning companies'. No-one is saying they never go wrong.
Discovery channel have been showing a programme on the Toyota F1 team and all the way through the company chiefs are talking about why they did not just buy another company and it was because it would not give them the opportunity to learn about the business properly. Off course they bring in skilled people but it is the learning experience that is important to them.
The same with the Prius - we talk about it not being successful but Toyota regard it as massively successful. It taught them how to design cars with lightweight materials and they got a complete new product development system from the experience that they now use on all their models - putting new designs into production quicker and cheaper than their competitors.
They also know that whilst they continue to develop the electric technology they will get better and better at it.
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>>If you new nothing about the workings of a car would'nt you buy the car that is perceived unbreakable and would you ask a question on a forum knowing the answer would mean nothing to you?<<
I see what you mean now dox in that respect I do agree with your theory.
But can you really argue that Jap cars are not any more reliable than any other.
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well I know quite a lot about how cars work and how to repair them and I've bought a Toyota.
Why?
Cos I am a consumer and I demand that prodcuts I buy
1. work reliably and have high build quality
or
2. if something goes wrong which is possibly a design or manufacturing defect I do NOT have to argue with them eg Ford and Mondeo TDCI fuel pumps!!!!!
It is my sad experience that most non Far East manufacturers fall down on either 1 or 2 or both...
My experiences with Ford, Rover, Audi and Mercedes bear that out. BMW were an exception .
The last thing I want from a car is some untraceable fault which is intermittent and only soluble at a cost of £1000s .. and I will NOT tolerate it.
I suspect many other consumers have had the same experiences and have effectively decided the same...
I have read JDPower surveys for years and their statistics bear out my experiences...
madf
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Any mention of Ove Anderson? The boss of Toyotas WRC team that was turned into the F1 team.
How many wins has Toyota had in F1?
No other manufacturers are doing any developement on cars of the future other than the Japs?
I will buy a Jap car, I will buy a Jap car, I will buy a Jap car, I will buy a Jap car, I will buy a Jap car,
Is that better? I'll roll over and beleive everything I read....Especially on the internet ;o)
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>Dox
How many wins has Porsche or Rover or Jaguar or Ford or GM or Honda or Fiat or PSA or VAG had in F1?
madf
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>>How many wins has Toyota had in F1?<<
Like i say they are in it for the long term - they never expected to be winning races straight away - they recognise they are on a learning curve - it's the learning that is just as important to Toyota.
Now Honda - they do have a very sucessful F1 history and will no doubt be there again.
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>>Is that better? I'll roll over and beleive everything I read....Especially on the internet ;o)<<
So dox - apologies if you answered this above but are saying Jap makes are no more reliable than the others ?
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I don't beleive surveys, my own survey contradicts what the professional surveys state.
If people are so dissapointed with their non Jap buys, why are the car makers in the rest of the world still in business?
If the Japs are in F1 to improve there reaction times, why will it take Honda 3 years to get their diesel engine into a production car?
Time for work, bye bye ;o)
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Question for Dox:
Let's say for a moment you are right, and uneducated-in-car-mechanicals buy Japanese because they buy into the hype.
That hype still exists and, to most people, Nissan are still Japanese.
So why is it that Nissan have fallen out of favour quite dramatically in these surveys since the merger with Renault?
If your hypothesis is true, the fact that they've switched to largely Renault technology should be immaterial -- and all other things being equal, they should have retained the same position in the reliability surveys as before.
So why haven't they?
Could it be that -- shock horror -- they've become less reliable since the merger? And if so, why is that? If your hypothesis is true, this must mean that new Nissans are less reliable than the Renaults they are based on.
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I don't beleive surveys, my own survey contradicts what the professional surveys state.
Wow - that is interesting - please tell us (when you are back from work) how many Japanese brands you owned/surveyed and fill us in with all the trouble you had.
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Come on guys, let's keep it civil!
Consesus on this from people and my main dealer chief mechanic(multiple brands) is that
1) Japanese cars are most reliable because 'they're built right in the first place". They may not be the best looking or give you a feel good factor but in terms of reliability and easy of ownership they are impressive.
1b) Korean cars are like 'soiled' Japanese cars.
2) German cars are the best of European. Average for reliability, but customer service can be excellent which helps to keep customers happy (BMW). Tend to have a good image and give you a feel good factor due to perceived quality and great advertising.
3) French cars are troublesome but are desirable in a quirky French kind of way - we all complain about the French but all want to go and live there!
4) Italian cars are a nightmare. FIAT is an acronym for 'Fix It Again Tomorrow' in the trade apparently. Built to just outlast the warranty ;-) Have nice styling and are like a beautiful but floored woman.
5) American cars - forget it!
Basically, for a long term relationship marry the average looker with the good temperament, but for a short term passionate fling, go with the Italian! ;-)
There you go, I think I've managed to offend everybody!! Let me know if I've missed anyone!
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If Nissan are so head and shoulders above the rest, why jump into bed with Reno? And why use their technology?
Never owned a Jap car, dad owned 2 nissans Stanza and a Bluebird both had problems and were very average to drive. Sorry if theyre a bit old, he saw sense and bought european after.
Keep asking away, does'nt bother me in the slightest.
Reread my posts Type's, the answers are there should you be bothered to look.
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Don't you be late for work - I thought you were going.
Sorry I missed your points above.
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If Nissan are so head and shoulders above the rest, why jump into bed with Reno? And why use their technology?
Way to not answer the question. The reason they got into bed with Renault, of course, was poor financial management on Nissan's part leading to financial problems.
I say again, if your comment is true then the change in technology should not have kicked Nissan into touch in the reliability surveys. So why were they? You seem to have all the answers, given that you're prepared to go against the flow.
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are like a beautiful but floored woman.
That freudian slip made my evening ;-)
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My 54 Nissan Primera has not been as reliable as my previous K Primera.... mostly electricals problems, like the immobiliser preventing me start the engine and self leveeing issues with the headlamps (xenons). I understand these are Renault sourced parts...
ps both cars were built in Sunderland
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