An Audi is hardly a premium car though is it? Certainly not premium as in Mercedes or BMW.
I see what you're saying Aprilia but you appreciate and understand how good a QX is whereas the average scmuck probably could even tell you who made it. (As an aside, the rear is a dead ringer for the mark 1 Lexus GS don't you think?!)
Even you had a 7 series for a (albeit brief) time didn't you?
No way I'd be able to afford one of those.
|
Even you had a 7 series for a (albeit brief) time didn't you? No way I'd be able to afford one of those.
Yes, I used to run a garage with my father and I guess one of the things that goes with the job is getting your hands on all sorts of cars. I did have a nearly-new 7-series about 5 years ago. It was possibly the most disappointing and troublesome 'newish' car I've ever had and this was coupled with extreme problems with the dealer. I've also owned various other BMW's for short periods, such as a 2002 (many years ago!) and an E34 5-series. Other German cars included a VW Scirroco GTi in the '80's plus an Audi 80. The 80 was a good car and IMHO better than the A4 which went 'wrong' by having that uneccearily complicated front suspension. Also had many Mercs, of course, including S-class.
Its a pity Nissan stopped bringing in the Maxima QX (A33 series). The very latest are apparently very good. Similarly the late model Toyota Camry was a great car IMHO. The is talk of Nissan bringing the Infiniti brand to UK, which would be a good thing.
I think the main problem with the German brands is their marketing. They're all cleverly marketed to appeal to British arrogance and snob mentality - this seems to rub off on their dealers, and the owners. Remember the Merc advert , "The only car with built-in right-of-way"? Personally, what I'm after is a reliable well-engineered large car without the cost and baggage of so-called 'prestige'. These days I keep as much of money as possible for enjoying long holidays with the family and not working when the kids are off school. I'd rather spend it on this than on some fast depreciating piece of tin sitting on the drive to impress the neighbours.
For 'fun' I have a Skyline GT-R which cost well under £10k and gets to 60mph in about 4 seconds.
|
I know sometimes I have a bit of a go at you for your staunch defence of Japanese cars but I think on this one I am actually in agreement with you. That Lexus I had for a matter of hours (!) went some way to showing me how well built "other" cars can be so I've actively paid attention and actively researched big Japanese cars with a hope of possibly getting one in the future.
There's a S plate QX at Uni and it looks immaculate and in a funny kind of way, look quite executive. At least you know you're getting good quality when you buy Nissan/Toyota etc.
Bringing this back to Mercedes, my Dad for a few weeks drove a 04 plate E class 320. The left Xenon headlight had completely melted the polycarbonate lense so it looked pink and pretty disgusting. The paint unneath had also flaked off showing the plastic on the bumper. And when I say flaked off - I mean compeltely shed the paint so you could see a perfectly smooth unpainted bumper.
There was another problem with a diesel pump on that one. The other one had to replace it had a leak somewhere too.
Don't get me wrong - I could put up with those problems if he got to keep it rather than his 626 (which I and he hates) but when you consider these model E classes were over 30 grand new, you wouldn't be too happy if it was your money would you.
His Mazda incidentally has had no problems whatsoever bar a rear brake caliper sticking which I believe is a common problem.
>.For 'fun' I have a Skyline GT-R which cost well under £10k and gets to 60mph in about 4 seconds.<<
You kept that quiet. Very quiet!
|
I didn't buy the QX for its looks or handling. I bought it because its roomy (three tall kids), very large boot and is reliable. It was originally bought as a 'stop gap' car till I sorted out another Merc - but I've grown to like it and intend to keep it for the long term. It sits outside in the yard all the time and I just jump in, start up and put it in 'D'. If I replace it I may get a Suby Legacy - I driven a few and really rate them.
If I wanted I could pull some cash out and buy pretty much anthing up to £50-60k - but what a waste of money that would be! I guess after all these years I've got it out of my system.
|
|
|
|
An Audi is hardly a premium car though is it? Certainly not premium as in Mercedes or BMW.
Audi are competing head to head with BMW, and if you look at the pricing of comparable models you will see what I mean. In fact a lot of the trade press say that Audi build quality is best in class. If Audi is not a premium brand then what is it ? I think Audi's marketing department would be very foolish to be competining in a non-premium sector but with premium product pricing.
Demographically the type of people that buy Audi is different to those that buy BMW addmitedly, as BMW have an aggressive image whilst Audi have a quiet, considered and understated quality image.
To quote Clarkson when he compared the BMW M3 and Audi S4 (directly competing models) "the BMW is like an Ibiza beach barbeque, whilst the Audi is like a civilised dinner party !).
|
Ahh hold on a minute.
"Audi are competing head to head with BMW, and if you look at the pricing of comparable models you will see what I mean."
To be fair, that doesn't really mean much. Ford charge 25 grand for a top spec 2.0 Focus but it doesn't mean people are going to pay it.
I'll grant you that they're at a higher level than Ford/Vauxhall etc but I don't think they're on a par with BMW. Despite being a prestige car, you still have to pay shedloads to get a decent spec. It's the same with Volkswagen too.
I'm still not convinced about Audi build quality. My mate's TT dashpod has packed up claiming he always has half a tank of juice, and my mate's boss had an A6 not 2 years old with a load of problems to the point where he got rid and bought a C class.
Granted these are a very small sample and both cars are over 2 years old so like I said, things could very well have moved on but these aren't the only relatively modern Audis with problems that I've heard about.
I'd still have a nice RS6 though ;-)
|
To be fair, that doesn't really mean much. Ford charge 25 grand for a top spec 2.0 Focus but it doesn't mean people are going to pay it. I'll grant you that they're at a higher level than Ford/Vauxhall etc but I don't think they're on a par with BMW. Despite being a prestige car, you still have to pay shedloads to get a decent spec. It's the same with Volkswagen too. I'm still not convinced about Audi build quality. My mate's TT dashpod has packed up claiming he always has half a tank of juice, and my mate's boss had an A6 not 2 years old with a load of problems to the point where he got rid and bought a C class. Granted these are a very small sample and both cars are over 2 years old so like I said, things could very well have moved on but these aren't the only relatively modern Audis with problems that I've heard about.
I think personal preferences are creeping into the argument here, so I will say that I have had several BMWs and Audi's and would say each has equal merits in different areas. BMW are just as bad as Audi for needing loads of costly extras to get a decent spec I think, I would also say that I have had no real problems with either marque I have owned. Ford/Vauxhall pricing for high spec cars is largely a fantasy on the part of the dealers, whereas on the prsetige marques it is a reality which is reflected in the residual values.
The fact is I wouldn't discount buying another BMW but as I'm now an old and boring family man, the Audi suits my needs a bit better, as I'm not looking for pin-sharp driving dynamics.
|
Are we not getting a little confused here. The Audi is a Badge engineered VW.
I am not saying Audi make poor cars but if they are a 'prestige' car then so are VW, Skoda and Seat.
It is no different to the days when the Mini/1100 BMC cars were marketed as MG, Riley, Wolesley etc.
|
That's the point I was trying to get across but failing miserably.
Cardew put it a lot more coherently than I did.
|
|
|
I do not agree as there is only one mabey audi that is a audi badged VW
|
|
|
IIRC Audi is a subsidiary of VW with it's own engineers, designers and production and I can't think of a VW, Skoda or Seat which uses a current Audi floorpan. So I don't see how Audi is a badge engineered VW or how Seat and Skoda would by the fact of being VW subsiduary take on the qualities of Audi. There is a degree of commonality with fittings, switchgear and some engines but with that logic then the shine rather comes off Lexus as it's just a Toyota or Range Rover, Jaguar and Aston as they're no more than Badge engineered Fords. Following this line why buy a Jag or an Aston when it's essentially no different to a Mazda?
Considering the current range of cars being produced by Audi,MB, BMW and Jaguar I think very few marques are properly prestigious, individual models like the XJ, A8, S class and 7 series certainly but not the brand.
|
Considering the current range of cars being produced by Audi,MB, BMW and Jaguar I think very few marques are properly prestigious, individual models like the XJ, A8, S class and 7 series certainly but not the brand.
>>
I think that sums it up perfectly.
The W12 Phaeton might also get prestigious status but not the Polo 1.0!!
|
|
|
|
|
|
Audi are competing head to head with BMW, and if you look at the pricing of comparable models you will see what I mean. In fact a lot of the trade press say that Audi build quality is best in class. >>
Perhaps so though they are often let down by dynamics and refinement. An A3 or A4 may be hewn out of solid granite though, for instance, the 2.0 TDi (yet alone the 1.9) is not a patch on a 120d, 320d or TDCi in terms of mechanical refinment nor are they as rewarding to drive.
Clearly the 6 cyl A6s are a different matter altogether though they have to compete head on with 530ds and E320s, tough competition.
|
|
|
|
|
I still think so.. Okay Mercedes have lost the plot in the last few years, but the build-quality of Audi and BMW is still significantly better than the more mass produces marques. I have an Audi, and tend to take it for granted, ie no rattles squeaks or looseness, until the times when I drive a hire car or even my wifes Focus.
No squeaks or rattles in our almost 12 year old Xantia either. What does that say about its build quality?
|
No squeaks or rattles in our almost 12 year old Xantia either. What does that say about its build quality?
Does it mean that everything that can rattle/squeak has rusted firmly in place, or has fallen off???
|
>> No squeaks or rattles in our almost 12 year old Xantia >> either. What does that say about its build quality? >> Does it mean that everything that can rattle/squeak has rusted firmly in place, or has fallen off???
Thats a bit cruel but probably true !!
|
>> >> >> No squeaks or rattles in our almost 12 year old >> Xantia >> >> either. What does that say about its build quality? >> >> >> >> Does it mean that everything that can rattle/squeak has rusted firmly >> in place, or has fallen off??? >> Thats a bit cruel but probably true !!
>>
It is nowhere near the truth actually. I have said it before, in this forum, Xantias are not prone to corrosion, nor has anything ever fallen off. The build quality of these cars is exemplary. Very little has been replaced from new. The only major item to be replaced was the hydraulic pump.
The only things that people in this forum believe about French cars are the bad things that are said about them.
|
Well, the C5 let Citroen down a wee bit - for the first few years at least. Many a Xantia owner regretted changing to an early C5.
But the new C6 looks like a step in the right direction.
|
Well, the C5 let Citroen down a wee bit - for the first few years at least. Many a Xantia owner regretted changing to an early C5. But the new C6 looks like a step in the right direction.
Well, Citroen did make a mess of the early C5s, of which ours is one example. A lot of people got fed up with all of the faults and recalls, and got rid of them, which is quite understandable. However, ours has not caused any significant problems in the 3 years we have had it.
The one area where the Xantia is superior is in its handling but, in every other respect, the C5 is a much better car. Much more leg room in the front, much better seats and equipment levels on even the basic models. I would have said the Xantia is a much better looking car too but the restyled C5 is a very attractive looking car, to my eyes.
|
What was that big problem with the axle on the C5s?
This might surprise you but despite my anti-French ramblings, I think the C5 is a nice looking car - well - as long as it's not in C5 Blue!
The new one is even better.
|
What was that big problem with the axle on the C5s? This might surprise you but despite my anti-French ramblings, I think the C5 is a nice looking car - well - as long as it's not in C5 Blue! The new one is even better.
The problem with the axle beam (caused by a manufacturing fault, so I am led to believe) was that it caused uneven wear on the rear tyres. The tyres on our car wore about 3 mm more on the outside edge. It's a bit early to say if the new axle beam has cured the uneven wear but it did result in a quieter rear suspension.
Citroen did themselves no favours by failing to make this fault the subject of a recall. The dealer I dealt with was, initially, totally unhelpful and I have no doubt that there are a lot of C5s out there with this fault. Anyone buying a used C5 would do well to check for uneven wear on the rear tyres.
|
|
|
|
|
My Xantia is 7 years old, no squeaks or rattles either. Nothing's rusted into place everything's still on it, and it all works, so there!
|
|
|
|
|
Now I'm not saying Fords are bad in fact the opposite, but you get what you pay for in a car, and if you pay the premium for a german marque you get that extra solidity.
Fifteen years ago I would have agreed with you completely. There was simply no comparison between, for example a Mercedes 190 and a Sierra.
In my experience, things have changed very considerably in recent years. I regularly drive a variety of mid-range cars, both premium and non-premium brands. The overall gap between a C-class or A4 and a Mondeo is small. The Mondeo is significantly better to drive, the Germans counter with posher interiors. The Accord comes very close to matching the Gemans in all respects.
The reality is that people who buy mainstream C-class, A4 or 3-seies in preference to Mondeos and Accords (in particular) are spending several thousand pounds on a badge, and some feelgood factor.
|
The fact is that the UK car market has, is and always will be driven by snobbery. The Germans have been hugely successful in their marketing. Whether the cars are better or not isn't the issue for the vast majority of buyers for whom this is important.
Now come on, admit it - what would you really rather have on your drive? Mondeo or 3 Series?
|
Fair point I guess.
Having previously run Fords, Sierra then a couple of Mondeos and now driving a 3 series, I am of the opinion that with the German makes you pay lot more for a bit more.
|
The gap between "exec" cars and decent middle market cars has certainly narrowed in the 8 years I've been driving.
Over the last few months, I've test driven: X-Type, A4, IS250, S40 and 9-3 - all well-regarded cars from the "small exec" area. But the gap to the C-Max and 307 hire cars I've had has been pretty small. My new car will be a Lexus, but if it was taken away and I was given a C-Max, I'd get over the dissappointment pretty quickly.
|
|
|
|
Now come on, admit it - what would you really rather have on your drive? Mondeo or 3 Series?
Berlingo!
(In fact, just about anything other than a 3 series. I come from a family of inverse snobs. If I had to have a 3 series, I'd need a paper bag with a couple of holes in it.)
|
> I am of the opinion that with the German makes you pay lot more for a bit more.
Totally agree.
The difference between a Focus and a BMW 1-series is tiny considering the extra money you pay. Even more so the Accord vs 3 Series.
I think the differences are mainly just down to time.
Every manufacturer is improving constantly. The Germans have not got much better in the last ten years as they were already very good. Ford, Honda, Toyota have mostly caught up with Audi, BMW etc and the difference is narrowing all the time -- diminishing returns.
As an aside, folks criticise the cheap interiors of the cheaper Japanese cars (some smaller Nissans, Daihatsu etc) and the Koreans, but if you look at these cars objectively, all they are are a little bit behind the times. A 1995 Ford Escort is equally cheap and plasticky. It won't be too long before the interiors of these cars have caught up with the mid-range suppliers now.
The market for the German cars seems to be more and more one of snobbery, especially when an Audi is essentially no different to a Skoda.
|
|
Audi and Skoda are fine cars and it?s a good example of how previously undesirable brands have raised the game and are closing the gap on the sector above. I?ve driven both extensively, but it?s kind of meaningless to say that an Audi is essentially the same as a Skoda. Do you see the Superb as the A8, the Octavia as the A6 and the Fabia as the A4? Have you driven these cars Jase?
|
|
|
|
Now come on, admit it - what would you really rather have on your drive? Mondeo or 3 Series?
>>
At the same price point I would certainly rather have a fully loaded 2.2 155 Ghia X or ST TDCi than a basic 318d or an ST220 rather than a 318i SE.
|
Neither the Mondeo?s 2 litre tdci nor the 2.0tdi are as refined or powerful as the 320d. The refinement of the VAG unit varies considerably depending upon the vehicle it?s installed in, and I have to say particularly in the A6 and the new Passat the refinement is impressive. Overall I would say that the Ford and The VAG engines are on a par in this regard, though the VAG unit is clearly the more powerful unit and feels faster on the road.
There are few, if any, terrible new cars and as the tide has risen so the leap from the Passat/Mondeo/Vectra sector to the so-called compact exec sector is not large and that it comes down to details, engine ability, refinement and build quality. If you test drive the car and those differences are worth it to you, then you?ll happily pay, if not then buy something else, but above it all be content with your choice.
|
Neither the Mondeo?s 2 litre tdci nor the 2.0tdi are as refined or powerful as the 320d. The refinement of the VAG unit varies considerably depending upon the vehicle it?s installed in, and I have to say particularly in the A6 and the new Passat the refinement is impressive. Overall I would say that the Ford and The VAG engines are on a par in this regard, though the VAG unit is clearly the more powerful unit and feels faster on the road.
This is not my experience I find the 320d impressively powerful and refined though it feels distinctly less gutsy below 2000 rpm than my 2002 Mondeo TDCi that has over 100k on the clock, nor does it idle as smoothly and quietly as the Mondeo. With regard to the 2.0 TDi while it pulls well as it revs it is neither as torquey, quiet or refined as the Mondeo and I have experience of it in an A4 and a Golf. As for the 2.2 Mondeo, it is in a different league.
|
|
My experience shows that you're incorrect in your perception regarding both the 320d and the 2.0tdi, and rolling road figures would confirm that the VAG unit is the more powerful and torquey. That said I reckon we'll agree to disagree.
|
|
|
|
|
You have to be joking ,Uptill recently we hired on a regular basis in Germany and we always ask for Ford and only take BMW as a last choice they are all badge and no content.The Ford had more room performed better was more economical.Not rubbish but way overpriced.
|
|
|
|
|
The fact is that the UK car market has, is and always will be driven by snobbery. The Germans have been hugely successful in their marketing. Whether the cars are better or not isn't the issue for the vast majority of buyers for whom this is important.
Agree completely. Some enthusiast types in this market do choose the 3-series specifically for the RWD driving experience, but for the majority it's about brand, image and status, and the rest is irrelevant.
|
Agree completely re the marketing and snobbery but not the comment that Audi is not a ?premium? brand whereas Merc and BMW are. I think market research will show people view all 3 as premium brands. As has been pointed out, the market is different ? BMW loud, look at me, Audi understated class.
When I purchased last year, amongst others I looked at the Merc C and Audi, not a BMW because of the ?perceived? image. The interior of the Merc was quite poor in relation to the Audi in terms of look, feel and materials. I think Merc lose a certain amount of their market through the perception that Merc manuals are awful and undesirable and you have to fork out £1500 plus for the auto whether you like it or not to cover your resale value.
In the end I purchased a new Audi, the car is beautifully designed and looks fantastic and is nice to drive. However, I have already had quite a few problems with it that have been resolved. I expected to only visit the dealer for services, not in between early on in its life. Outstanding at the moment I have an oil leak, noisy exhaust, electrical fault in the lighting, petrol filler flap that won?t open automatically and a few rattles.
The feeling these days seems that if you want the least hassle, buy Japanese
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
