525i has 192BHP
540i has 286BHP
Audi S4 has 276BHP and 4WD. With a chip it could easilly go over 300BHP, but will drink petrol like its going out of fashion.
Merc C36 AMG (or maybe even a C43) is the car for you. All the luxury you can handle and 286BHP (300 for the C43) through the rear wheels.
If thats a bit too understated then what about an E39 M5?
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The MG ZT is not really a Q car in my book as it has boy racer looks
Although the V8 gets good reviews
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Although people could mistake you in the MG V8 as a rep in one of the diesel ones
It may be a Q car after all
Must stop needing to post twice... stop, think then type
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OK, my reactions to the suggestions so far. N.B. Although I stated desires, I don't expect all of them for the money. Also, I assumed the Saabs and Volvos would be RWD and was waiting for one to be suggested. Any of them candidates?
Jag XJR - inviting huge bills and doesn't really suit me (I'm not old enough)
Mondeo ST - tempting, given the rave reviews Mondeos seem to get on this forum, even if it is FWD
Omega - too risky on reliability
Audi S4 - worth a thought. Guess servicing would be horrendous as well as petrol?
Lexus IS200 - not powerful enough
Nissan 300ZX - don't know much about it in terms of reliability and expense
Merc Cosworth - this is an idea. How old are they now? And how good?
Merc AMG - am I asking for trouble?
BMW 525i/540i - possibilities (what about the ones in between?) Not sure about the stigma though?!
M5 - would love to but no way!
MGZTV8 - it would need to be cheap
--
Mattster
Boycott shoddy build and reliability.
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I should point out that the ST Mondeo I was referring to is the Mark 2 (i.e. 1996ish to 2001ish) and is probably not the same that you read all the raving reviews about. Still a good car though.
I'm seriously tempted by a 535, 540 BM myself when I leave Uni and have saved up a load of cash but the only 540's I see for less than 10 grand have an awful lot of miles on. (over 120k). That being said, they look awesome in black and every toy you could imagine.
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Bear in mind that the car you have now is a particularly low depreciator, any other car that you get in the £10K price bracket will likely suffer far greater depreciation until it levels out. A Mondeo ST for example, whilst a damn good car, will probably suffer worse depreciation than the Type-R.
Apart from getting into something German that is slow to depreciate, the only other way to beat it is to buy something older that has already bottomed out...
Blue
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Just so it's clear, I'm not on abotu the ST220 but the older ST200. Surely the worst of the depreciation has hit them?
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I would have thought depreciation would be levelling out for most of the cars mentioned
I don't know if the Audi is expensive to service (its not an RS4)
I always thought that if you are happy with the fuel consumption of a car of this nature then maybe it isn't powerful enough
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I would have thought depreciation would be levelling out for most of the cars mentioned I don't know if the Audi is expensive to service (its not an RS4) I always thought that if you are happy with the fuel consumption of a car of this nature then maybe it isn't powerful enough
If a turbo goes (it has 2 remember) on the S4/RS4 then its an engine out job to fix. You're talking MEGA-bucks!
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Yeah, I knew which one you were on about, but I think Mattster is looking at the 220 version.
The older ST200 will definately have suffered the worst of their depreciation now, some are available for less than £5K but I suppose they're probably a bit tatty compared to the slightly priceier ones...
Wouldn't mind one myself actually as a run about when I get my business off the ground and start to see the money coming in, but then I'm also tempted with a cheapy Ghia X for less than £3K, but can't decide between 2.0 16V and 2.5V6, common sense tells me that the 2.0 will be much better behaved, but I want V6!
Blue
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Thank you, I knew I was been silly trying to think of sensible reasons not to buy one!
V6 it most proabbly will be, in about a year to 18 month's time when I have the disposeable income to buy myself a second car... fingers crossed! :-)
Blue
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Couple of observations from Autotrader (searched from £5k - £10k):
MGZT 260 - couldn't find any.
BMW 540i - found a handful, all £10k, all Touring and all about S/T reg, except one 96/P saloon (nearly 10 years old?!)
BMW 530D - more of these and they're supposed to be pretty nifty?
Mondeo ST220 - found one estate
Mondeo ST200 - found a handful, about W reg, £6k ish
--
Mattster
Boycott shoddy build and reliability.
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Looked again and found some Merc C36AMGs at around £7k. Hmmm. A year's dealer warranty and that is starting to sound very tempting. What's the worst that could happen?
--
Mattster
Boycott shoddy build and reliability.
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You smile the smile of a man who has not bought a BMW
Merc sounds good
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The choice is simple. BMW 540i Sport, BMW 530i Sport, BMW 530d SE.
Go and drive one, then you'll buy one. Nothing comes close.
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>>Go and drive one, then you'll buy one. Nothing comes close>>
Nothing comes as close as looking like a drug dealer
5 series of a certain age in my opinion look tired easily
How about a 330D though ? can you get one of them within budget?
not the one on e-bay
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Nothing comes as close as looking like a drug dealer
Have you ever seen a Cadillac Escalade?
I guess the question WRT a 5-series is do you care about image or do you care about how well it drives?
I didn't really like the idea of s BMW when I got mine, but after I drove it I bought it on the spot. I've never driven anything like it. Most are wasted bombing up and down the motorways. The windy country roads are it's natural habitat.
And half the point of a Q car is that it doesn't necessarily look much but it goes like stink. In fact, that's the whole point.
----
Life is complex; it has real and imaginary parts.
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Saw very black BMW 535d with all windows tinted and the front ones looking very illegal. Could just see gangsta type person driving, although remarkably slowly. Looked like a mean car just right for a drug dealer.
Avoid if you want to be considered an upright member of the community.
--
Espada III - well if you have a family and need a Lamborghini, what else do you drive?
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Fair enough
Different strokes for different folks I guess
What does WRT mean ?
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People are far too hung up on image.
People deride buyers of some luxury marques as being too concerned with brand image and little else, they then use these same reasons to explain why they refuse to buy certain cars...
Oh no, can't drive that, I'd look like a boy racer/rep/drug dealer/Sub-Saharan African dictator (delete as approriate)
Just buy what you like and who cares if someone who doesn't know you from Adam mistakenly thinks that you are a drug's dealer?
Blue
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Don't want to be nippy.....but.. if image doesn't matter why don't you wear a bright pink suit to work tomorrow
Same applies with cars but you are right about the prejudices people hold
I dislike BMW's but don't hate those that do I even recomended one
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Don't want to be nippy.....but.. if image doesn't matter why don't you wear a bright pink suit to work tomorrow Same applies with cars but you are right about the prejudices people hold I dislike BMW's but don't hate those that do I even recomended one
Because my employers have a dress code :-)
Seriously though, that wouldn't be in keeping with my personal tastes and I wasn't refering to clothing, on that score I think image does matter, especially in certain business environments, th eimage portrayed by my car does not matter too much to me though, I've had a succession of cars, old and tatty up to brand new, with a middle aged Beemer in the middle, was never bothered by the image that any of them portrayed about me, I knew that they all suited my needs at the time and that's what counted to me personally.
Yep, even an 11 year old 1.6 Mondeo suited my needs once! :-)
Blue
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What does WRT mean ?
with regard to
----
Life is complex; it has real and imaginary parts.
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5 series of a certain age in my opinion look tired easily
A well looked after E39 does not look tired. Infact, despite not liking the shape I'd even say a well looked after E34 doesn't look tired or at least, doesn't look like an 80's design.
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apologies all round
I appreciate BMW's are good cars but as I said before,
what ever floats your boat,
I'm in one camp and you guys are in the other
Back to the Q car thing for a minute though, a Q car is all about image. Unasuming,non flashy and the ability to surprise with a turn of speed
That probably rules out BMW/Audi/Merc as people expect them to be quick.
So maybe a Volvo is the answer
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So maybe a Volvo is the answer
Like my "two kids and half a labrador" looking (I have neither!) V70 2.4T now pushing out 254BHP and 444NM? (200BHP and 285NM standard)
Quicker than a standard T5, with mental torque delivery. A huge invisible force that starts to warn of its approach from 1500RPM, is at full whack by 1800RPM, and keeps going and going all the way to the limiter.
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Yes, the Beemers are starting to grow on me, having looked up some stats. Once you venture into V8 territory, the 'cost per mile' figures start to leap up though. That may be the higher purchase price working its way in. A 530i is probably my sort of money.
Half interested in the Volvo option. T5s seem to be pokey - what are they like when a few years old? Or is it a non-starter when compared to the Beemers?
--
Mattster
Boycott shoddy build and reliability.
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Early T5s are great fun, but are of course FWD. In the wet this tends to result in lots of wheelspin and torque steer unfortunately. I'd have one tomorrow if the right car turned up though!
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Can recommend performance Volvo - fulfils the Q Car brief admirably. I have an S40 T4, so not in quite the same territory you'd be looking at (only 4 cylinders). However, they are supremely reliable (mine has never failed an MOT or required major servicing work despite covering 94k miles), look understated and can comprehensively outperform a great many other cars out there, particularly in midrange performance.
52 Reg S60 T5 currently on manufacturer's used car website for £10k.
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Audi S8, failing that A8 4.2 Quattro Sport. Very agile, and very discreet to look at. Test drive one, watch Ronin on DVD, and you will end up buying. Group 20 insurance, and I was quoted 530 fully comp, with zero no claims bonus!
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Audi S8, failing that A8 4.2 Quattro Sport. Very agile, and very discreet to look at. Test drive one, watch Ronin on DVD, and you will end up buying. Group 20 insurance, and I was quoted 530 fully comp, with zero no claims bonus!
Are you sure you dont mean £5300 ?!
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>> Audi S8, failing that A8 4.2 Quattro Sport. Very agile, and >> very discreet to look at. Test drive one, watch Ronin on >> DVD, and you will end up buying. Group 20 insurance, and >> I was quoted 530 fully comp, with zero no claims bonus! >> Are you sure you dont mean £5300 ?!
Nope, I meant 530 quid. I was as shocked as you, asked the insurer to double check, and it was legit. They just said they had low claims from S8 drivers in their own experience.
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Can't believe how cheaply you can buy an S8! Mind you, I bet if you dent any of the body panels you're right up the creek without a paddle.
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Can't believe how cheaply you can buy an S8! Mind you, I bet if you dent any of the body panels you're right up the creek without a paddle.
Yes, they are cheap. The ride quality is crap, but who cares when you are driving a 4 door Porsche equivalent for the price of a 2 year old Mundano Ghia X!
It's a bit of a myth about the high cost of repairs to the aluminium bodyshell. Apparentl, 95% of repairs can be carried out with ease. One of the cheapest 4 door super saloons to buy, and VERY discreet. I hardly think the depreciation and maintenance is gonna top £2,400 a year on a 6 year old S8 that has been looked after.
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Being brutal, I don't think you're going to get Type R like performance and running costs anywhere else. Assuming it's a three year old worth £9k now, it'll only lose £5k or so over the next four years as depreciation starts to level out on that, too. Meanwhile it should be almost boringly reliable, relatively easy to work on and not too bad on fuel.
That's not to say that you shouldn't look at something more refined or subtle, but it's probably going to cost you.
I'm surprised that no one has suggested a Jaguar X Type 3.0. You'll look like a retired Major of course, but it has 231 bhp and there are plenty around for £10k. It's got 4WD too.
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Could I suggest a Mitsubishi Galant or Legnum (Galant estate) VR-4? HJ CbC describes it as 'fast and safe'. Nicely styled, but with around 280 bhp on tap. Full time 4WD, ABS, Auto stability control, Auto Yaw Control, traction ctrl, electrics, tiptronic-type 5 speed auto. 2.5l V6, quad cam, 24 valve, twin turbo, intercooled. Lots more info at www.clubvr4.com
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Two links e-mailed to me today of an S60 2.4T with exactly the same software tuning mod that I made to my V70 2.4T. I've have since made a few more mods (and have just as much problem getting the power down in first gear ;-) but the way it then pulls looks just the same though. Even the missus smiled when she saw me grinning!
www.x40nordic.com/Media...).avi
www.x40nordic.com/Media...).avi
100kph = 60 mph
200kph = 120 mph
If his speedo's like mine 63mph shown (approx 105kph) is a true 60mph.
Not a bad Q car.
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Noooo!
I was all excitied and the links don't work!!!
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They worked for me, though admittedly not yesterday.
Perhaps the server is dodgy, so I suggest another try later.
I hope you're not disappointed!
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I've just checked when the mail with the links was sent to me and it was at a similar time yesterday not today as I thought, so perhaps the server goes down for backup of something. Anyway, good luck.
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Here you go Adam:
New links.
snipurl.com/k7t2
snipurl.com/k7t7
{{Sorry SJB. Links made non clickable as per all video clips because they soak up HJ's bandwidth. Copy and paste into your usual web browser URL bar to view - DD}
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How about an Volvo 850 T5. Cheap but fast.
--
Espada III - well if you have a family and need a Lamborghini, what else do you drive?
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Here you go Adam: New links. snipurl.com/k7t2
>>
That guys gear changes are terrible.
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I don't think I've ever wanted a Volvo as much in my entire life as I do now!
Thanks SJB.
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SJB,
In my attempt at removing the http:// part from your links by editing your post has resulted in certain other text being omitted from the url as well due to a slight bug in the way our edit button works.
Can I ask you to post them again, but as non clickable links.
Sorry. DD.
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SJB,
ignore last message. I managed to retrieve the original url's from my history file and converted them to snilurl links instead.
DD.
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No worries, and sorry HJ about the bandwidth.
BazzaBear - Yes, the gear changes are less than perfect, but it's still no slouch!
Adam - Glad you enjoyed it.
On the few occasions that I have done so, I have used a different launch technique which is a fraction faster and is also kinder to the powertrain; he used 2000RPM, which is too much as torque is already at a peak and it completely overwhelms the available grip even on a bone dry hot summer's day. Instead, I get rolling at about 1500 RPM (boost just building), give it half to three quarters throttle as the clutch fully engages, let it then rev to 4000RPM (DSTC still working overtime but able to cope), in to second, and then nail it. The tyres simply squirm and yelp as the car catapults forwards up to the limiter at 6,300RPM. In to third, and the fun continues, etc.
The grunt I frequently use is in third gear; it covers a huge speed band and is bonkers at any rev point in that band. Only near Munich (twice) did I get the chance to do what he did in fourth and fifth gear.
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The one that caught my eye was at the end of (I think) second, when he was sat for a good time with the revs right in the red, not building, before changing again.
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Did anyone else notice that the dashboard gauge reads -4 degrees? There was a little red frost icon and everything, a very brave man!
Blue
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How about the Lancia Thema 8.32? Bit old, but does have a Ferrari V8 under the bonnet (8 cylinders, 32 valves)...
Might be tricky to find, but will be under budget.
--
Dr Alex Mears
Seat Leon Cupra
If you are in a hole stop digging...unless
you are a miner.
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The one that caught my eye was at the end of (I think) second, when he was sat for a good time with the revs right in the red, not building, before changing again.
Yes, me too. He sat there banging away on the limiter. Also, as written he should have short shifted in first.
On the temperature comment, apart from being a brave guy -4 deg C will help power, especially if damp with it, but of course really hampers grip even in the dry.
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Right, having looked at all the suggestions and considering others, I looked up a load of stats for several cars, including power, torque, weight, cost, JD Power rating and my own sanity check. My shortlist is:
Mitsubishi Galant VR4 - high on performance, but don't know a lot about it. Probably the more risky choice.
BMW 330i - good all-rounder
Volvo S60 T5 - also high on performance (beats the Beemer on power-to-weight 170 v 150 and also torque-to-weight 170 v 150). Is FWD, however.
Funnily enough, next came my own car, the Civic Type-R. Good on power-to-weight and cost, but rock-bottom on torque.
Guess the real proof of the pudding comes from the test drive!
--
Mattster
Boycott shoddy build and reliability.
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Having looked at S60's myself Matt, I couldn't find a decent T5 for under 10 grand. Those that I did find had mileages I'd rather not have on a car I'm paying so much money for.
I'm still not dissuaded from the S60 idea in general myself though.
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If you go the S60 route, don't discount the 2.4T; I'm a life long Volvo enthusiast and wanted an S60 T5 but ended up with a V70 2.4T. V70 instead of S60 because I needed the space (doesn't seem to be a factor for you coming from a Civic so the gorgeous looking S60 is fine) but 2.4T instead of T5 because of the much better real world driveability. That a few hundred quids' worth of software tuning alone turned it in to a stock T5 beater is irrelevant, but I tried both and had the cash for either, but to my great surprise and after a lot of deep thought chose the 2.4T.
Just a thought shared from experience, and widening up the scope increases your chance of finding one too.
Good luck with whatever you choose, and please report back!
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So you can turn a 200bhp 2.4T into more than 250bhp (as per the T5) with a bit of software tuning?
--
Mattster
Boycott shoddy build and reliability.
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So you can turn a 200bhp 2.4T into more than 250bhp (as per the T5) with a bit of software tuning?
A short question but a longish answer.
Please bear with me! ;-)
Ignoring the fact that I have made physical changes to my 2.4T as well as software, the thing to remember here is that they are both turbocharged engines. This makes it much easier to tune by software alone than a normally aspirated engine largely by using software to allow the engine to run increased boost. In comparison the Volvo 2.4 normally aspirated engine tunes from either 140bhp or 170bhp (both are the same engine design with software the only difference) to only 180bhp with a software upgrade alone.
Simply whacking up the boost is not all that is involved though because as you do so not only is the engine more stressed but undesirable things can start to happen like increased turbo lag. The turbo also starts to run hotter. There is also the matter of exhaust emissions to consider, and of course fluid dynamics tell us that eventually you will reach a throttle point beyond which you will get no more gas flow no matter how much extra pressure you apply.
So, with software, exhaust, ignition, and boost controller modifications my 2.4T now performs as it does, but by software alone a T5 can be pushed to the order of 300bhp.
Why?
The 2.4T has a high compression ratio that is not far off a normally aspirated engine. The turbo therefore runs relatively little boost. This allows the engine to drive like a lazy larger capacity engine because even off boost it produces meaningful power. The 2.4T is however very under stressed and can happily take more boost, though not as much as a tuned T5 (we will come to that below). Mine now runs just under 1 bar versus (I think) about .6 bar standard.
The 2.3 T5 that we are talking about (not the 2.5 T5 now in production) has a low compression ratio but a high pressure turbo. Even in standard trim boost is of the order of the 1 bar that I have after tuning. The result is that it is much lazier off boost but more of a sledgehammer on boost.
So, if my 2.4T now has about 250bhp, why is it so much quicker than a 250bhp T5? The answer is torque. Mine produces huge torque of way over 400NM across a wide rev-band courtesy of the high compression engine and extra boost. A standard T5 produces 320NM torque across a band that not only is narrower but also starts higher up the rev range. Tune a T5 though and you typically get 300bhp and 430NM by software alone. You still have the chasm at the bottom of the rev range though that in real life makes it easy to be wrong footed. Of course eventually the world will explode in a frenzy of pure power but by then it's too late.
In standard trim a 2.4T is not a lot slower than a standard T5 across country, and is more driveable with it. The mods I have done simply lift these characteristics to a new level.
HTH.
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Right, having looked at all the suggestions and considering others, I looked up a load of stats for several cars, including power, torque, weight, cost, JD Power rating and my own sanity check. My shortlist is: Mitsubishi Galant VR4 - high on performance, but don't know a lot about it. Probably the more risky choice.
Almost everyone doesn't know a lot about it (if that makes sense). That's what makes it such a great Q car. Japanese reliability and build quality makes it a less risky choice. If you can get past the 'brand name' factor, they make a lot of sense. A short note on www.clubvr4.com will almost certainly produce a proud club member willing to take you for a test drive.
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