Oh yes - its the galaxy. 100% get it drained.
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It is the Galaxy. Its actually 25% petrol, ignoring whatever diesel was in there, so perhaps slightly less.
Its a nightmare time for it to happen since I'm not there to do anything about it and can't do anything till tomorrow night. Unfortunately its somewhat problematic if the car is not available for the school run tomorrow.
What might happen ? How big a risk are we talking ?
I realise its my decision, I just need a clue as to what and how much I'm risking.
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How about if the car does around 20 miles and then gets drained ?
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Personally I wouldn't drive it. The high pressure pumps in these are costly.
What about a taxi for the school run?
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It runs, it will probably continue to run but all the time you are damaging the pump and injectors.
Aprila will know all the details.
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It could cost thousands if not sorted. Read in a weekend paper that with modern diesels initiating pressurisation of injectors etc. on unlocking - to reduce startup times - then simply unlocking a diesel car after filling with petrol can cause damage... Let alone starting. Cannot comment on how true that is but someone here might. But it would explain why diesels start straight away these days = they are hiding some of the old delays.
Also, plenty of company car drivers at work have switched to diesel and made a mistake with petrol and needed new engines. So now the company will charge for mistakes like this - and sent out a box to fit to the filler flap that shouts "warning diesel...etc." when it's opened. Never fitted mine but will if I make a mistake ;-)
Rob
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Mark
Why not just shell out on a taxi for the school run and get the necessary done? The cost of a taxi is what - a fraction of the cost of a bigger bill that youcould get.
....that's assuming you live fairly close to the school.
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Some years ago I filled my old deisel Cavalier with petrol. It took about 5 miles of driving before white smoke started to come from the exhaust and another mile before it finally cut out. I suspect that there's a reasonable chance of that happenning on the school run.
At least that had an old design engine so just wanted the tank flushing out and refilling with deisel. Others have already commented on just how expensive this could be if the petrol starts getting to the injectors.
Use a taxi for the school run or if its a long way, hire a car for the job and have someone recover the galaxy and get the tank drained.
--
I read often, only post occasionally
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Oh Mark, sorry to hear this. We've all (almost all including me ) done it, some more than others and its a bummer. With me it was two litres of UL and then 50 litres of Derv on top - so OK. With the chocolate bar I would not risk it. Get a taxi and drain the tank. You may just get away with it given that there may be some petrol in the fuel system already.
--
Espada III - well if you have a family and need a Lamborghini, what else do you drive?
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If it were a couple of percent petrol then I would suggest risking it. With 25% I would say don't even turn the ignition on!
Get the tank drained and get the fuel lines cracked open and the whole system emptied of fuel. Then refill with Diesel and hope all is well!
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Not experienced this but agree. Can see where FM2R is coming from though. £14 petrol plus £42 diesel and we're saying throw it all away.
But not worth the risk. And tell other half to be more careful in future. Presume it was someone other than FM2R from post who made the mistake.
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You could siphon half of it out and refill with diesel. At that point the percentage of petrol should be down to about 12% (if my maths serves me correctly at 12.30am.).
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>>Modern Ford diesel engine.>>
If a Galaxy it is actually a VW engine as fitted to many VW's, Audi's etc. I would call a Ford main dealer for advice though also call a VW dealer as well because they will certainly have come across this scenario before, if not in a Sharan/Galaxy then perhaps a Passat or Golf.
Then unless the dealer(s) is adamant that a PD will cope with this % petrol then get it drained and flushed, a new high pressure pump alone will be 100's.
Was it a BP station by any chance? If so they may be persuaded to contribute to the cost because they have taken a lot of critisism for thr similarity between pumps.
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Was it a BP station by any chance? If so they may be persuaded to contribute to the cost because they have taken a lot of critisism for thr similarity between pumps.
Why should a filling station contribute because someone has failed to read the label on both the pump and the nozzle? Just because there is a "standard" colour system, doesn't mean that you shouldn't read to make sure.
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Why should a filling station contribute because someone has failed to read the label on both the pump and the nozzle? Just because there is a "standard" colour system, doesn't mean that you shouldn't read to make sure.
I agree however BP, not the filling station itself, have acknowledged a lack of clarity and have compensated some drivers.
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oooo, bitter.
As it happens it wasn't BP, it was easily identifiable, it wasn't an accident, somebody thought that vehicle was petrol. Stuff happens.
I'm not worried about the money, its the time which is an issue.
Thanks for your comments so far.
Another question; If left to their own devices do petrol and diesel readily separate ?
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Not in the kind of timescale you'd be interested in....
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Thanks, that's a good thing.
Could you help me understand why petrol would damage the engine ? I can see it might stop it running, but how would it actually damage it ? Would petrol be better or worse as a contaminant in diesel than, say, wate ?
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The diesel and its additives lubricate the pump.
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But we're not talking about it getting no lubrication. If the diesel and petrol don't separate, then it will merely get less efficient lubrication. I realise its probably not either linear or a direct relationship, but surely 75/25 Diesel/Petrol will retain a significant amount of its lubricating qualities.
Especially since that lessening will only be for a short period of time before more diesel goes in gradually increasing back to normal strength - and it they don't spearate, which would be a serious concern since then it might get a gollop of no lubrication at all, then I'm not sure I understand the level of risk properly.
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You must appreciate these high pressure pumps work at quite astounding pressures often in the region of 20000 to 25000 psi. Even quite a short period of reduced lubrication won't do it any good.
You may get away with gradually increasing the ratio of diesel but it's a risky strategy with costs potentially running into four figures. If it were my car, I would not drive it another inch.
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No, petrol and diesel (or oil) will take several months before they begin to separate at all.
Even then, I'd rather not reuse the diesel - expect it would still be too contaminated.
Sorry!
- Gromit
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You may well have got home on the diesel remaining in the fuel lines and filter.
When some kind soul cut the fuel pipe on my 205 diesel just after the tank, it ran for about three miles - quite normal, according to my mechanic.
I agree with everyone else - drain the tank, and re-fill. You'll probably get away with it.
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"reuse the diesel"
Central heating? Perhaps not... :-)
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Just a thought, and not one based on any sound scientific knowledge of the problems here.
Some diesel additives such as Millers Diesel Power Plus claim to increase the lubricity of the diesel when added at 20ml per 20litres.
On that basis, would not a whole bottle of Millers (1l) make good for the lack of lubricity in £14 of petrol? Millers state that overdosing with their product will do your engine no harm. There is of course the question of how to agitate the mixture to allow the product to fully mix with the petsel/dietrol.
I throw this suggestion into the pot in the hope that someone with some knowledge (ie your answer does not include the words "guess","imagine", "iirc" or "I would think") can say yay or nay on this.
$$
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>>There is of course the question of how to agitate the mixture
I thought you'd been in a car with me ?
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Yes, but not like that! Comments like that can be wilfully miscontrued in here.
That would mean you starting and driving the car with er, enthusiasm before the stuff had a chance to mix.
$$
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Swiftly passing over what FM and $$ get up to in a car, by coincidence there is a similar thread on another (Citroen) board which I read,with regard to petrol in an HDi diesel. Comments range from "add a bit of cooking oil" to "get it drained immediately" and "use the low pressure pump to drain the tank" ( some suggestions sound extremely dangerous to me!!)
For what it is worth, and hoping it is maybe some help, here is the link
tinyurl.com/dzspl
Phil
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Two stroke oil sounds like a good idea to maintain lubricity though I would get advice from Ford or perhaps better VW first re the PD high pressure pump.
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"In the instruction book for my newly acquired '97 SEAT Toledo TDi it states that it is safe to run with up to 30% petrol in the diesel fuel - not that they recommend it - but it apparently doesn't do that much harm (VAG 1.9 TDi engine). Take it for what its worth"
Comments ?
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The '97 TDi is a similar engine to that in you Galaxy but for the injection system, the '97 TDi was direct injection engine though the PD engine in the Galaxy uses a very high pressure injection system hence the high pressure pump mentioned before.
That being said how old is the Galaxy? If it is a 90 or 110 model it is not PD though if it is a 115 or 130 it is, IIRC the first 115's were approx late 2000 / early 2001.
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It's a 130 then, ask a VW dealer about running this engine with 25% petrol, they will more experience of the engine than a Ford dealer, as I said before unless the dealer is adamant that it will be OK then you drive it at your peril, afterall it may appear ok for weeks or months though undue wear on a high pressure injection pump could manifest it'self via a premature pump failure at anytime, perhaps the only saving grace would be that it may be covered under warranty if you have not discussed the petrol matter with a Ford dealer and there is not residue of petrol left in the tank when the pump fails, problem is that in normal use you never use all of the fuel in the tank so there will always be an ever decreasing bit of petrol in the tank (unless it is drained), albeit a very small bit if the pump were to fail in a few months.
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The guy at Ford looked at me blankly. The guy at VW said it would be fine but wouldn't commit himself to a record of that.
What neither of them could do was tell me why it would cause damage and at what %age of petrol the issue arose.
I think, having survived the day without it, it can stay off the road for another day until I get it sorted. It seems to be generally accepted that "some" petrol would be ok but "lots" would not, even if the reasons and the actual measures are not well understood.
Currently I am at the point of tomorrow letting the local chappy drain the tank and fuel lines/pump, refilling it with diesel and letting it go at that. It seems a little unlikely that any problem will result.
To be honest I suspect that this is another area of paranoia that so often surfaces around cars - like 300 mile oil changes, hourly tyre checks and the like. But, the inconvenience of managing without the car for a week or two while they stick it back together if it does break tends to make even a smaller risk unattractive.
As for the warranty comments; I understand what you're saying but I usually try to do what I think is right, largely irrespective of what I might get away with.
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What neither of them could do was tell me why it would cause damage and at what %age of petrol the issue arose.
As has been said diesel provides it's own lubrication for the pump, petrol has the opposite effect.
As for the warranty comments; I understand what you're saying but I usually try to do what I think is right, largely irrespective of what I might get away with. >>
I would feel the same, if the pump failed tomorrow then bang to rights though it is a matter of whether your conscience would let you claim under warranty if the pump failed many 000's of miles and many months after this event.
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I know what was said here about why; my point was that they didn't know so I felt their advice to be of dubious worth. Not that I neccessarily am convinced here either.
In addition, neither here nor there could anybody say at what level.
Now I am not taking any high ground here, since I am quite sure that I have no idea of the answer. And, as it happens, I shall play safe. However, it seems to me that this diesel/petrol thing will enter into folklore and be accepted as gospel.
Kind of like the cam belt thing - I know people who've had punctures, I know people who have had various breakdowns - I don't think I actually knwo anybody who has ever lost a cam belt - I'm not saying that either it doesn't happen or that it cannot happen - but I reckon the dangers are vastly overstated.
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Kind of like the cam belt thing - I know people who've had punctures, I know people who have had various breakdowns - I don't think I actually knwo anybody who has ever lost a cam belt - I'm not saying that either it doesn't happen or that it cannot happen - but I reckon the dangers are vastly overstated.
Eh? How wide is your circle of friends and acquaintances? I've had a couple of relatives and a couple of friends who've had snapped cambelts. Its pretty common, sadly. In May I changed one on a Mitsubishi that was within a gnat's whisker of snapping. I think there have been a fair few BR'ers post having had a snapped belt.
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>>Eh? How wide is your circle of friends and acquaintances?
By what standard of comparison ?
I don't think I actually know anyone who has lost a cam belt. Obviously your circle of friends is wider, unluckier, or both.
Out of interest, how often do you change your oil ?
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FM2R
Here's one Backroomer who has thrown a cambelt (2 litre Omega at 79,500 miles when booked in for a replacement a week or two later - £2k worth of aaarrrgh!)
As a recent convert to oil burners I've been following this thread with plenty of 'there but for the grace of God' etc.
I hope the Galaxy is OK
Dan
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I think, having survived the day without it, it can stay off the road for another day until I get it sorted. It seems to be generally accepted that "some" petrol would be ok but "lots" would not, even if the reasons and the actual measures are not well understood. >>
It **is** well understood. In the high pressure pump you have got metal surfaces potentially rubbing together. To stop them coming into contact and wearing you have a very thin layer of Diesel fuel which acts as a lubricant. Petrol causes this thin film to break down, resulting in metal-metal contact and rapid wear with the generation of swarf. The pump eventually fails and the rest of the system is contaminated with the swarf.
What concentration of petrol is required to do this is open to conjecture (and experiment) - but I wouldn't like to try it at 25% !! This stuff is aerospace standard engineering, remember, so don't take any chances.
To be honest I suspect that this is another area of paranoia that so often surfaces around cars - like 300 mile oil changes, hourly tyre checks and the like.
No its not paranoia, its a well-founded concern.
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It's about time the manufacturers did something to help. It's easy to blame the motorist but we can all make mistakes. Surely it would be too difficult to engineer a sensor in the tank that prevented petrol being put in.
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Surely it would be too difficult to engineer a sensor in the tank that prevented petrol being put in.
Not quite a sensor, but still a warning message
snipurl.com/jnn9
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Where as petrol fillers are narrow so do not allow a diesel nozzel to enter Ford have announced the opposite, a filler opening that will only accept the larger diesel nozzle, it apprently opens up to take the larger nozzle though will not do so for a smaller one. Can't find where I read it otherwise I would post a link. To be launched next year IIRC.
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<< Surelyit would be too difficult to engineer a sensor in the tank that prevented petrol being put in.
It would be even easier than that. Radial projections on the outside of petrol nozzles and corresponding axial grooves on the inside of filler necks. For diesel, 2 diametrically opposite. For petrol, 3 at 120 degrees to one another. Both types of nozzle could be the same diameter, and both types of filler neck could be the same diameter. 2 into 3 won't go, and 3 into 2 won't go. (Could I patent this?)
--
L\'escargot.
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It would be even easier than that. Radial projections on the outside of petrol nozzles and corresponding axial grooves on the inside of filler necks. For diesel, 2 diametrically opposite. For petrol, 3 at 120 degrees to one another. Both types of nozzle could be the same diameter, and both types of filler neck could be the same diameter. 2 into 3 won't go, and 3 into 2 won't go. (Could I patent this?) --
That would require consensus amongst all car manufacturers, would need all pumps, petrol and diesel to be modified, also how would older cars fill up? The Ford concept is compatible with existing pumps.
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<< how would oldercars fill up?
There's more than one way to de-fur a feline.
The outside diameter of the projections on the new pump nozzles could be made the same diameter as the outside diameter of existing pump nozzles. The nozzle design could be changed first, with the change to the filler necks timed to suit the car manufacturer. There are already British standards, DIN standards and goodness what standards for all sorts of things on motor vehicles and it doesn't cause any problems. A standard design for fuel pump nozzles and filler necks should be easy peasy. You wouldn't even need to have tight tolerances on the chosen designs.
Anyway, there may already be standards covering the dimensions of fuel pump nozzles and filler necks.
--
L\'escargot.
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There was a thread not so long ago about how to prevent this problem. A much easier solution was posted, to do with placing a RFID sticker on the neck of the fuel tank (the new breed of bar codes - and a cheap and painless solution for old and new cars) and having a RFID reader in the pump nozzle, so it would not dispense if the sticker was wrong.
I'll have a search in a min. Seemed a good idea to me.
EDIT: here it is tinyurl.com/bkqb5
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<< A much easier solution was posted, to dowith placing a RFID sticker on the neck of the fuel tank (the new breed of bar codes - and a cheap and painless solution for old and new cars) and having a RFID reader in the pump nozzle, so it would not dispense if the sticker was wrong.
A neat solution, certainly. Unfortunately stickers can drop off or become damaged. I still think that a mechanical means of preventing the wrong nozzle from entering the filler neck is the best approach.
--
L\'escargot.
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>>No its not paranoia, its a well-founded concern.
If you say so.
It seems like the same paranoia which goes with so many other things about cars to me. I'm not syaing that there is no potential for damage, but I suspect it is exagerated like so many other things as, say, I believe the wafle about cam belts to be.
Lets say an engine is £1000. Lets say a cambelt change is £300. LEts say I do 150,000 miles. I'd probably be better off never changing a cam belt and buying a new engine if it failed - which it probably wouldn't.
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I had a cambelt fail, am I not your friend? ;)
It was on a 12 year old Mitsubishi Colt GTi which, (due to my youth and ignorance) had quite possibly never had a cambelt change or service in it's entire existence.
Had a new cambelt fitted, and it ran pretty much fine. Had a slightly noisy tappet, but OK apart from that. Was obviously lucky as well as ignorant.
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One of the nursing team that works with Nicole, threw a cambelt last month. The Fiat at 5 years old and 79,000 miles is beyond economical repair.
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>> Lets say an engine is £1000. >>
That is the first problem, in early '99 I had a rock hit the sump on a V6 Vectra, it was 9 months old and had only done 13k miles, Vauxhall quoted over £7000 for a new engine!
Lets say a cambelt change is £300. LEts say I do 150,000 miles. I'd probably be better off never changing a cam belt and buying a new engine if it failed - which it probably wouldn't.
Reckon most belts would fail within 150k if not changed, some such as Ford on the Zetec engine (old Focus and Mondeo) quote up to 100k miles though personally I would never push it that far, it is not worth the risk.
OK let's say a cambelt (plus tensioners) is £300 and it is changed every 60000 miles then that is only 0.5p a mile for peace of mind.
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>>Vauxhall quoted over £7000 for a new engine!
Ok I take your point on engine cost, although at £7,000 for a Vectra they definitely saw you coming.
However, I avoid what *I* consider to be excessive expenditure on a car. [I'm sure that sometimes I'm wrong]. I reckon with what I haven't paid on over the top oil changes, too frequent servicing, over cautious preventative maintenance and excessively expensive "special" petrol, I can probably still afford a new engine when/if it does blow up on me.
I could afford to have my car resprayed fairly frequently for what others spend on wax, and cleaner, and good knows what.
Never mind all the worry and expended time I don't waste.
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>>Vauxhall quoted over £7000 for a new engine! Ok I take your point on engine cost, although at £7,000 for a Vectra they definitely saw you coming.
Saw an insurance company coming I reckon.
It was a company car,my employer had an hefty excess for claims not involving a 3rd party, the dealers off-the-cuff diagnosis was that a new engine was required on the basis that it must have been run without any oil however I was sure that I had switched off an instant after hitting the rock, the Vaux dealer fitted a new sump, hence saving my employer a few grand and the car was running sweetly when I last saw it at 86k miles.
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Well Mark - I've had a belt snap on me, so that makes at least three people on this site who have suffered - so it does happen!
Mine was a Peugeot 605 Dt with 43,000miles and the belt change was scheduled for 72,000. Even local advice was don't change till 50,000.
--
Espada III - well if you have a family and need a Lamborghini, what else do you drive?
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Me too: Jetta 1.6, belonged to wife. What was annoying was that we had previously asked VW garage about changing it. They agreed they should have arranged it earlier, although for that engine there was no "official" mileage/age stated. VW paid for the labour: we paid for the belt/bits and the valves.
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Cambelts - OK, going back a bit, but I had 3 break on the same Cavalier, and one occaision was lane 3 of the M62. Standing on the central reservation of the M62 for 40mins was *not* funny.
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When a cambelt snaps does the car lock up and stop dead or are you just left coasting?
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Didn't lock up on me, just lowly died.
Basically it changes from the engine driving the wheel to the wheels driving the engine, so you just slowly coast to a halt.
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When everyone was saying to change mine I had fears of going down the motorway in the outside lane with the wheels just locking up!
Would have been exciting but wasn't really that keen on trying it out.
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When a cambelt snaps does the car lock up and stop dead or are you just left coasting?
That depends on whether it's an 'interference' (where the pistons hit the valves if the camshaft stops) or not.
In the Cavalier it was non-interference, however they tend to break when the engine changes load, ie from drive to overrun or vice versa. In my M62 incident, the traffic was stop/start at rush hour. As I stopped, the belt broke. The traffic all moved off again but I was left stranded in lane 3. Luckily the central res was wide enough to fit the car on, and I moved it on the starter (but you wouldn't be able to that with an 'interference' engine (or an auto).
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Whoops!
Hopefully I'll never need to find out!
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No
Did you get a happy ending to this?
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I had a cambelt snap on me about 6 years ago. Driving a hire car (a rented wreck) - an ancien Orion.
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