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I have some sympathy with this situation, as I am about to get our C5 2.2 HDI topped up with fuel additive. I have been quoted a labour charge for this of £80 + Vat. I can foresee that the total bill will not leave much change from £200. How can topping up a reservoir with a few litres of fluid take over an hour?
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Yes, I always think it's better to play safe and buy a Citroen......... ho, ho, ho!
Joking apart, I had quite a few Renaults in the past and always thought they were pretty reliable (in those days they probably were!) I always did my own maintenance and with a workshop manual and plenty of patience everything could be done without too much drama.
Unfortunately I can't touch the C5 with a bargepole - you can hardly change a lightbulb without hooking it up to a computer and I daresay it's not at all easy for access either.
I think on balance a lot has to do with production costs and expected lifespan (not!) of a car. If they can flog 'em cheap and put pressure on customers to give in gracefully and keep replacing when the warranty runs out they must be quids in.
In the end of the day owners either opt to buy a new model or pay over the odds for spares and time - either way they win!
Graeme
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£250 + parts to replace spark plugs ! Disgraceful that a normal service item is made so difficult.
What about the poor beggar who buys these cars when they are a few years old and can?t afford dealer prices.
I remember when spark plugs were five shillings each for my Moggy (four for a pound) and if you wanted new leads you bought a length with copper cores and cut them to size yourself. These would be to replace these new fangled carbon ones which used to break down.
Wise souls would tell you to make sure the caps were suppressed or you would get some irate householder coming out to give you a rollicking when you sat with your girlfriend with the engine ticking over. ?I?m trying to watch my television.?
Now I think about it petrol was the same price 4 gallons for a pound.
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I remember in 1989 when I was working in the garage we used to be able to get a decent-quality full-recon engine for something like a Chevette or an Escort for around £150 trade. Now you pay that for a new key. For £250 we would have supplied and fitted the engine and thrown in a new clutch too! Now that just buys you the labour to have new plugs fitted - crazy waste of money.
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Only a few short steps away from the day when we have to go to a specialist filling station to have the fuel installed!
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The sad thing is that these cars will be unwanted after just a few years use, as nobody is going to spend hundreds of pounds maintaining a car that is worth very little. It is all very well selling the car as high tech, with the aim of making high tech sound desirable, but a few outlandish bills will soon see any such desire melt away.
It makes keeping the Xantia sound more sensible as each day passes.
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RF has been strangely quiet.
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he's probably too busy outside fixing his lovely renault!
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Mmm, I recall hiring an ugly Megan - one with the fat bottom - and marvelling at how well the famous French electrics would work at 10 years old: the automatically turning on headlights; the zany 'ignition' 'key'. etc. etc. etc.
On the other hand, the R21 I had some years ago was marvellously easy to work on. I believe it had a Volvo engine?
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This thread reminds me of something I mentioned before regarding Asia's only Megane (apparently). My good friend Jean Pierre, being of course a Frenchman and thus of superior intellect and with a more sophisticated sense of culture than les paisants comme nous, is of course passionately patriotic.
Thus he imported a Megane from France, a car never before seen in these parts. Immediately Customs slapped 100% import duty, taxes and "other fees" on it before releasing it. Registering it was a nightmare since the Land Transportation Office had never seen a Renault before and even when it was presented to them didn't believe it wasn't some sort of French Mitsubishi.
From Day One the car was a disaster. It had been built for the French market and wasn't tropicalised. Thus the a/c was puny, the car was always overheating. No one could be found who understood it to work on it. Parts had to be shipped in from France and even the famed ingenuity of the Filipino mechanic was strained to its limit.
The ribald wit about Frog-mobiles, French avenues being lined with trees so that the Germans could march in the shade (that one from our local German contingent) and such around the bar knew no bounds. Finally JP caved in and under what must have been excruciating humiliation, bought a Nissan Exalta (sort of French) but of course could not get the dealer to part-ex some weird unheard-of unreliable lump from Europe. For some time he used to park the Exalta around the corner then walk to the pub.
Month after month the Megane stood in JP's yard and it was hard to tell who looked the most forlorn, JP or the car.
Finally JP entered the pub one evo with a wide grin. "I 'ave sold ze Megane!" he pronounced, "I 'ave sold ze Megane!"
"Oo the 'ell was that then?" (announced a loud Aussie voice from the back) "It ain't worth a zack. The buyer musta been hittin' the turps a bit to go for that old bomb. Runs like a dog on lono".
"Non, non, ze buyeur, 'e wants to put a Toyota diesel in it!"
Whatever happened after that has yet to be revealed. In a country where I have seen a Jaguar XJS powered by an Isuzu diesel, anything is possible.
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IIRC the spark plugs do not require attention until 60k or 72k according to Renault. In the meantime the owner/driver benefits from the excellent packaging (space efficiency) the Espace design offers, if you have 5 kids and two dogs an expensive service every three years is probably not too much of an issue.
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On the other hand, the R21 I had some years ago was marvellously easy to work on. I believe it had a Volvo engine?
Vice versa - the Volvo used the Renault engine.
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>Vice versa -
You are of course correct, but my post-Sunday lunch mind was somewhat befuddled. Just shows what a good engine it must have been. (Indeed it was; the car fell to bits around it.)
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The labour charge wouldn't be so bad in France of course - they don't seem to pay their garages more than their surgeons there.
Gareth
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One of the reasons for this is that cars are getting increasingly complicated and the manufacturers have to squeeze more and more underneath the bonnets. If you think back 10 to 15 years, cars were relatively simple. This has changed. If you lift the bonnet on my Megane dCi then it is quite packed - there's ABS, PAS, aircon, turbo, intercooler and probably lots of other stuff I don't recognise and don't need to know about anyway. We as customers demand these things and I certainly wouldn't want to go back to the days of unassisted steering, non-ABS brakes and hot interiors.
My last four cars have been Renaults and I would accept that they can be a little challenging to work on - my biggest criticsm is changing the front light bulbs. But Renault are not alone - isn't there a Fiat Coupe that needs the engine to come out for a cambelt change? And I believe the Peugeot V6 engine is tricky to change the plugs on. I am sure I could buy a different make that would be cheaper to service and easier to work on. But these cars tend to be too conventional for me. I am prepared to tolerate some higher servicing costs in exchange for the design flair and dynamism that the Megane offers.
SWMBO has a Toyota, great little car but for me too dull and boring.
Each to their own!
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One of the reasons for this is that cars are getting increasingly complicated and the manufacturers have to squeeze more and more underneath the bonnets. If you think back 10 to 15 years, cars were relatively simple. This has changed. If you lift the bonnet on my Megane dCi then it is quite packed - there's ABS, PAS, aircon, turbo, intercooler and probably lots of other stuff I don't recognise and don't need to know about anyway. We as customers demand these things and I certainly wouldn't want to go back to the days of unassisted steering, non-ABS brakes and hot interiors. My last four cars have been Renaults and I would accept that they can be a little challenging to work on - my biggest criticsm is changing the front light bulbs. But Renault are not alone - isn't there a Fiat Coupe that needs the engine to come out for a cambelt change? And I believe the Peugeot V6 engine is tricky to change the plugs on. I am sure I could buy a different make that would be cheaper to service and easier to work on. But these cars tend to be too conventional for me. I am prepared to tolerate some higher servicing costs in exchange for the design flair and dynamism that the Megane offers. SWMBO has a Toyota, great little car but for me too dull and boring. Each to their own!
I agree that we all want extra stuff under the bonnet - but spark plug access is a fairly basic design requirement. I have worked on plenty of other tightly packed power units that haven't had this problem - its simple lousy design I'm afraid. Not to mention the fact that Renault component quality is often lamentable.
To be honest I have a great respect for French engineering - some of it is very impressive. Renault as a company, however, fall short in just so many areas. To be fair it may not be the engineers fault, I suspect the dead hand of the accountant may be at work here. Let's hope they learn from Nissan.
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don't most car manufacturers use components from the same companies now? Like bosch or valeo alternators and window motors, varta batteries, NGK spark plugs, beru glow plugs etc?
Which french engineering in particular do you admire? i thought you didn't appreciate most of it! ;-)
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french engineering ?
In no order
Exocet
Concorde
Arianne
Mirage
Airbus
madf
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french engineering ? In no order Exocet Concorde Arianne Mirage Airbus
madf
always thought concorde was british(ok anglo french) the engines certainly are they were made very close to where i am now and airbus isn't french it's part french part british part spanish etc.the wings are built in bristol . i have friends who work for airbus, british aerospace and rolls royce . these 3 companies are among the largest employers in the area and cause chaos in the rush hour (motoring link). ...cheers...keo
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Renault as a company, however, fall short in just so many areas. To be fair it may not be the engineers fault, I suspect
the dead hand of the accountant may be at work here.
>>
I am afraid to say that I disagree completely, Renaults are not perfect by any means however it is not often that anything with character and personality is so, Renaults abound with ingenuity, character and flair.
In the case of the Espace spark plugs as I said above the spark plugs do not require attention until 60k or 72k, the owner/driver benefits from the ingenious space efficiency the Espace design offers therfore for someone with a big family, an expensive service every three years is probably not too much of a price to pay for the Espace's virtues.
Let's hope they learn from Nissan.
>>
Let's hope not!!!
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>> Renault as a company, however, fall short in just so many areas. To be fair it may not be the engineers fault, I suspect the dead hand of the accountant may be at work here. >> I am afraid to say that I disagree completely, Renaults are not perfect by any means however it is not often that anything with character and personality is so, Renaults abound with ingenuity, character and flair.
Unfortunately they also abound with problems. My "zero'th order" requirement for a car is that is should be reasonably reliable and durable.
Awaiting collection this evening on my driveway we have a 4-year old 60k mile Espace (don't know its new price, but 'expensive' I guess) that has deteriorated wiring, excessive crankshaft endfloat (possibly requiring an engine rebuild) and about £300 spending *just to change the spark plugs*. In other words this expensive and complex car could be heading toward being non-viable to repair at this relatively low mileage and young age. I have already spoken to the owner on the 'phone and he is considering p/x'ing because he's already spent about £400 on other repairs this year (something to do with rear suspension - he couldn't recall the exact details).
First of all design something that is reliable and durable - then add the 'character and personality'. When people talk about Japanese cars being 'dull' and 'bland' so often what they are referring to is that boring feeling you get when you jump in the car in the morning and just know its going to start!
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But Renault are not alone - isn't there a Fiat Coupe that needs the engine to come out for a cambelt change?
No. It can be done without removal of the engine, if you find a good specialist. But this is a major-ish task in any car. Not really on a par with changing spark plugs. (Although if the previous post about the spark-plugs being designed to last 60k is correct, this does mitigate somewhat (assuming you believe a spark-plug life of 60k))
But these cars tend to be too conventional for me.
You would describe a Fiat Coupe as conventional?!? Funny. I'd describe a Megane as relatively conventional ;)
Each to their own!
I agree with that sentiment whole-heartedly however. I'd be a dull, dull world if everyone under the Sun based their car purchase on fuel economy, ease of replacement of spark-plugs, and depreciation.
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A question for Aprilia,
Is there anything good to be said for Renault's engineering?
As you may guess, I'm not asking about body styling, the comfort of the seats, etc, I'm more interested in the oily internals, the chassis, the powertrain, the control systems.
number_cruncher
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A question for Aprilia, Is there anything good to be said for Renault's engineering? As you may guess, I'm not asking about body styling, the comfort of the seats, etc, I'm more interested in the oily internals, the chassis, the powertrain, the control systems. number_cruncher
To be honest I don't know a great deal about recent Renaults. I have generally kept clear of them because they proved troublesome. In the mid-late 1980's when I had the garage with my father we stopped servicing/repairing them because so often there would be complications and they were too much trouble.
I know in the past that Renault pioneered electronics on European cars (they had an automatic transmission controlled with analogue electronics). I remember in the late 1960's my father working on a Renault (Daphine??) that had a rear engine and push-button gear selection. In the 1970's he also used to service some (R16??) that were an odd shape with 'rails' either side of the roof. They were quite good cars, according to him, but very soft and rolly suspension. In the 1980's we dealt with lots of 'problem' Renaults like the R25 (more faults than you could shake a stick at - whilst fixing one, another would appear!). R19's with dodgy carburation, Fuego with overheating, burnt valves etc etc. They were fond of wet-liner engines at the time, as I recall. Renault took over Bendix injection systems in the early 1990's (IIRC) - to form Renix. They Renix systems were not reliable - we went out to quite few breakdowns where the coil had failed or the ECU had burnt out. Strangely early Skodas (pre-VW) also used Renix stuff (and the Volvo 400-series I think). They also went their own way with auto transmissions and it was rare to find one with more than 60k miles that was working properly. I don't know if they have improved much, but won't be finding out with my own cash.
Like I said, maybe they will learn something from Nissan.
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"(Daphine??)"
Very nearly. Dauphine.
Ghastly cars.
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In my experience a lot of the access problems with modern cars is due to the transverse layout. This makes cambelts very difficult on most cars and sparkplugs on V6/8s. My Range Rover is fully loaded with kit yet the North/South engine affords reasonable access.
--
\"Nothing less than 8 cylinders will do\"
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I once had a Renault 16 and for comfort, driving, and refinement it was one of the nicest cars I've ever owned. If I could find one, I'd buy one tomorrow.
HOWEVER, it had a similar problem with the spark plugs. The No 4 plug was utterly inaccessible without removing all manner of extraneous items (I can't remember what exactly, it was 30 years ago). And this wasn't a transverse engine fitting either.
Incidentally, the spare wheel was situated on top of the engine, not the most healthy of environments for the tyre I'd have thought. Left plenty of room in the boot though.
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I too remember the Renault 16 with fond memories, particularly the TX model which was a real flyer. I haven't seen one in the UK for years, although they are still seen occasionally in France, particularly the rural areas where relative poverty means people keep their old cars running for years. Sadly the 16 was from an era when most manufacturers were less than thorough with their rust proofing.
Having the spare wheel under the bonnet was quite a sensible idea, as you say it freed up space in the boot and was certainly better than later french cars that had them slung under the back, where they were prone to theft and getting filthy. Also having the spare under the bonnet meant that it was more likely to get looked at from time to time and the air pressure checked. Also I used to turn the wheel upside down (a very old Renault 5) and I found an old round biscuit tin would fit perfectly in the wheel. Great for keeping tools in.
I see on newer Renaults such as my 2004 Megane, they have put the wheel back in the boot again. With modern cars there just wouldn't be enough room to have a wheel under the bonnet.
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.>> I too remember the Renault 16 with fond memories, particularly theTX model which was a real flyer. I haven't seen one in the UK for years, although they are still seen occasionally in France, particularly the rural areas where relative poverty means people keep their old cars running for years. >>
Xileno, glad to hear from another 16 fan. The only one I've seen in the UK recently was when I was working in Redhill a year or two ago. There was a slightly tatty blue metallic parked there regularly
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I too remember the Renault 16 with fond memories
I don't know anyone who had one (I had 2 in the late 70s) who doesn't remember these with some fondness. They were the sort of car whose good points like the ride & practicality outweighed its bad ones like the rust, which wasn't that much worse than a lot of other cars of that era anyway.
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R16
Despite being possibly one of the ugliest cars created during that period, I knew loads of people who owned or ran these in the late 70's early 80's and all universally thought they were wonderful.
If it wasnt painful on the eyes and every known example has returned to pre bessemer converter native ore, it would be a classic.
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If it wasnt painful on the eyes ...., it would be a classic.
The painful on the eyes bit was very much a matter of opionion I used to spend ages defending the appearance among other early twenty somethings I worked with at the time.
It was a highly popular company car in the 70s in the three lettered organisation we work for but, apart from me, it seemed to be older employees rather than recent graduates who chose them.
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The painful on the eyes bit was very much a matter of opionion I used to spend ages defending the appearance among other early twenty somethings I worked with at the time.
I would agree, as I quite liked the look of it
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"Sorry I got to this thread very late. Espace diesels suffer the same thrust bearing problem as Aprilia described, to the extent of needing new blocks which are, of course, in short supply.
I think this applied to the old 2.2dTi diesel rather than the current 1.9, 2.2 and 3.0 dCi range in the Espace. Happy to be corrected though...
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"Sorry I got to this thread very late. Espace diesels suffer the same thrust bearing problem as Aprilia described, to the extent of needing new blocks which are, of course, in short supply. I think this applied to the old 2.2dTi diesel rather than the current 1.9, 2.2 and 3.0 dCi range in the Espace. Happy to be corrected though...
I agree, though to be pedantic I think it might have also applied to the 130bhp 2.2DCi in the old Espace though not to the 150bhp 2.2 DCi in the new Espace and Laguna.
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To support Rennies, I had a company Laguna new in 1995 and put on 80k miles no problems. Then we bought a new 1998 Scenic and put on 72k miles again no problems.
New supposedly reliable Passat 2002 - 2 breakdowns in the first 20k miles!
Extended test drive arranged for a Grand Scenic shortly......I won't be put off by this thread.
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"Extended test drive arranged for a Grand Scenic shortly......"
If going for a diesel, get the 1.9 engine. The 1.5 dCi is great in the Clio, good in the Megane, but a bit underpowered in the bigger and heavier Scenic. Otherwise enjoy, especially the electric handbrake.
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Agree, The 1.5 and the Scenic are not a good match.
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For those who like the 16, this may be of interest.
www.r16site.com
The 16TX looked different though, it had four square headlights.
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Suppose I should chip in with a word of praise for the Renault 12. My Mum had one for years and it was an exceptionally comfortable, reliable car. The panels were certainly thin and prone to rust, but oddly enough the R12 had a 'chassis' underneath like a tank! Engine was 'in line' but fwd and access to the mechanicals was no problem whatsoever. Wet liner engine was bombproof if looked after (they preferred Elf oil and took exception to being flushed (flushing oil stayed in the galleries apparently) Suspension was a bit roly but absorbed bumps beautifully and road holding was impressive. What always surprised me was the spartan interior trim - yet seats that were a delight to sit in.
Of course the gallic flair for idiocy was there even in the early days. To remove the gear stick you had to smash the knob with a mallet and have a replacement ready - it was araldited onto the stick......
Drive shafts were secured with tiny rollpins which flew across the garage when 'drifted' out. Of course Renault didn't supply them as separate items apparently......
Happy days!
Graeme
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Not all Renaults have insane designs.. as xileno says the electric parking brake is a wonderfull piece of kit, makes the Mercedes handle and pedal brake arangement seem.. well prehistoric.
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I can't speak for the Espace mentioned, but Renault do not change plugs automatically every x,000 miles. Plugs are changed when an engine performance analyser says they are needed. The plugs in my 2-litre Mégane are still going strong after several years.
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