Drink driving has successfully been made socially unacceptable; it seems that speeding is going the same way. All over the country there are people who are considerably more morally outraged than yow when they see things that, a few years ago, were quite ok to do
The question is what?s next? Is it 500 watt bass bins audible from a mile away? Cars more than 5 years old which pollute more? 4x4s? Motorbikes? The middle lane owners club?
What would you prefer?
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Drink driving has successfully been made socially unacceptable; it seems that speeding is going the same way.
Sorry - dont see that link at all. There was and is very little backlash against Drink driving laws, OK some resistance to lowering the limts, but generally its accepted as a motoring way of life.
There is considerable backlash to the deamonsing of speeding motorists, varying from protests and angry mutterings about the enforcement of such, to the validity of the limits in the first place.
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True that speeding hasn't been made quite as bad as drink driving yet, but I think it's well on the way.
Perhaps it's because the pockets of resistance to drink driving laws got gradually smaller, and speeding appears to be following the same pattern.
Perhaps it's slower because speeding is more widespread than drink driving was too? Most people* speed at least once on their daily journey but I don't think most people used to drink and drive for every journey? Although I'd need to be pretty well tanked up before taking a Ford Anglia on a motorway...
*Data gained from non-scientific source: my observations
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>>>Drink driving has successfully been made socially unacceptable; it seems that speeding is going the same way.
Sorry - dont see that link at all<<<
Here in the USA, which tends to lead in things like that, speeding is already socially unacceptable. Among young people here there is no speeding and fast driving culture like there is among young people in the UK (or at least what I recall from the 1980s).
I showed people here that BBC article about the cop doing 159 in his Vectra and their horror was almost comical to watch; they were especially outraged by my attitude of, well if I was allowed to, I'd probably do the same! And we're talking about people in their 20s and 30s, who in the UK you might expect to share my view.
So I think in 10-15 years in the UK you may find a similar shift.
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Here in the USA, which tends to lead in things like that, speeding is already socially unacceptable.
Again dont accept that argument either. For at least the last 30 years speeding in the US has been ruthlessly enforced. From the highway patrol to some fat hick local sherrif in Pigstick Ankansas hiding behind a billboard with a radar gun. Amercian motorists have lived all their lives with the knowledge that if they break the very low speed limits they *will* get caught and fined.
For the last 30 years the attitide of the British motorist is to laugh at 55mph freeway speedlimits, and giggle when we see clips of cop chases where the driver of the "powerful police cruiser" panicks and screams for backup when the chase hits 100mph (mostly cos he knows his faithful Ford wont do more than 108)
So that one Americanism that hasnt, isnt and wont catch on here.
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Here in the USA, which tends to lead in things like that, speeding is already socially unacceptable. Among young people here there is no speeding and fast driving culture like there is among young people in the UK (or at least what I recall from the 1980s).
Not sure that's true after driving on the I15 from Las Vegas to LA last summer saw plenty of speeding, very surprised !!
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Yes indeedy, some States have/are relaxing speed limits. It seems that the Americans are even catching the speed bug!
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Yes indeedy, some States have/are relaxing speed limits. It seems that the Americans are even catching the speed bug!
especially the two blokes going past me at 100mph on the backwheel of their Kawazaki/yamaha/honda 1100cc whatever with no crash helmut t-shirts and shorts ---NUTTERS
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I've just returned from 5 months in Texas where I did quite a lot of driving and I found the following:
Speeding isn't really socially unacceptable. A similar mix exists to the UK, some drivers obey the limit to the letter (or number rather), most do an indicated 10-20% more thereby breaking the limit a little but not really risking getting caught, and a few drive very fast weaving from lane to lane as is the way on US highways.
I was horrified by the extent to which drink-driving IS acceptable, socially. Lots of people are prepared to drive to a bar, have half a dozen drinks and drive home again.
The standard of driving seemed to be a lot lower than in the UK. The driving test appears to be far easier and almost anyone is granted a licence after some "drivers' ed" at the age of 16. I got frustrated by rolling-roadblocks that seemed to occur on the highways due to 3 people all travelling slowly side by side - there is no lane-etiquette on the highways. Mobile phone use was rife and signal-usage suffered as a result. Drivers would frequently slam on the anchors and turn left (across the flow of traffic) without signalling at all, simutaneously talking on the phone. Hanging in another driver's blind-spot also seemed to be a popular sport. Drivers seem to often be unaware of what's going on around them, pulling off manouvres regardless of whether or not there is someone in the way. If anyone's played GTA3 and tried to "obey traffic laws" for a while, you'll understand what I mean.
Basically, all the irritating things that UK drivers do, but moreso.
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Drink driving has successfully been made socially unacceptable; it seems that speeding is going the same way. Sorry - dont see that link at all. There was and is very little backlash against Drink driving laws, OK some resistance to lowering the limts, but generally its accepted as a motoring way of life. There is considerable backlash to the deamonsing of speeding motorists, varying from protests and angry mutterings about the enforcement of such, to the validity of the limits in the first place.
I agree, drink-driving and speeding are not even in the same galaxy. If you drink and drive you are zillions of times more likely to cream someone than if you are doing 80MPh on a motorway.
I dont think for a minute that speeding will become anywhere near as socially unacceptable as DD.
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anywhere near as socially unacceptable as DD.
::Sulk::
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>> anywhere near as socially unacceptable as DD. ::Sulk::
Well you do have shocking manners.
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It is a matter of degree, yesterday I was entering a corner shop near where I work, there were a lot of uniformed school children standing around and crossing the road to the shop, I heard a car coming towards the corner, an oldish Civic flat out in each gear, must have been doing 60 when he braked, screeched around the left hand corner on the wrong side (fortunately nothing was coming the other way), I heard him change from 3rd to 4th flat out so must have hit 70 as he headed away from where I was standing, all this in a 30 zone.
That guys should be locked up and banned for 10 years plus.
However what many people complain about is over zealous policing of limits, fining and throwing penalty points at people for doing 35 on a deserted city street at 5:00am on a Sunday morning.
What is required is variable limits based on prevailing conditions then many 30 limits could be raised, reducing congestion, with temporary 15 or 20 limits at school times, i.e. between 08:00 and 09:00 and 15:00 and 16:00. Like wise a similar approach on other road types.
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I agree with variable limits at specific times but they must be uniform. It is very confusing driving down a road with bus lanes and having to look at each sign to see when it is available to regular motorists. That causes accidents and does help traffic flow.
--
Espada III - well if you have a family and need a Lamborghini, what else do you drive?
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>>>>I heard a car coming towards the corner, an oldish Civic flat out in each gear, must have been doing 60 when he braked, screeched around the left hand corner on the wrong side (fortunately nothing was coming the other way), I heard him change from 3rd to 4th flat out so must have hit 70 as he headed away from where I was standing, all this in a 30 zone.<<<
The local community policeman?
Sorry :-)
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>many 30 limits could be raised, reducing congestion<.
I'm not convinced that congestion would be reduced by raising speed limits. Where congestion exists, it isn't usually because drivers aren't allowed to go any faster (as if that would make much difference ;o) but because of junctions, lights, traffic-calming measures, cyclists, etc.etc.
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The question is what's next?
Outfits other than mid-grey boiler suits? As prescribed by Brussels, being the only EU-standard outfit that is acceptable to all 25, and rubber stamped by Blair. ;-)
Seriously, cheddar is spot on in making the distinction. Much speeding is already socially unacceptable. It's just that there is little overlap between that and the speeding that (on day to day experience) is prosecuted.
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Variable speed limits are the way to go. Maybe 90mph on a motorway, dry, clear, light traffic; 60mph if raining or heavier traffic, less if really congested. Similar setup for other roads too. There's a dead straight two-lane A road near me with a 50 limit (due to some housing). Fair enough. Then there's a primary school so the limit is 30 mph for a quarter of a mile then back to 50mph. Fine when the the school is open, but in the holidays or outside school hours? Guess where plod sometimes sits, outside school hours?
The main problem with variable limits is that they would need to have electronic signs coupled with sensors for traffic volume and weather conditions in order to set the limit. Expensive! And no money in it, unless coupled with speed cameras. But surely a viable option on motorways, major routes and outside schools?
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Variable limits outside schools work very well in NSW, signs clearily state the speed limits (lower than normal urban limits) and they only apply certain hours in the morning and afternoon 'on school days'. Rigidly enforced on school days but normal speed limit applies at all other times. Often wondered why they cant do this in the UK.
StarGazer
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With regard to variable speed limits, France has lower limits if it is wet on all non-urban roads.
Lower limits by schools could follow America's example that no vehicle is allowed to pass a school bus that is stopped to pick up or drop off school children. That's right you just have to wait.
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Lower limits by schools could follow America's example that no vehicle is allowed to pass a school bus that is stopped to pick up or drop off school children. That's right you just have to wait.
That's a good idea, but would only help a minority of children in the UK, because school buses are much rarer beasts in this country. Unless you live more than a certain distance from school (usually 3 miles, I think) your child has to find another way of getting there.
Lower limits by schools sounds tempting, but I think it misses the point. Why should children be allowed to use the streets safely only when going to and from school? Because traffic flows so thick and fast the rest of the time, they find themselves forbidden to use the streets during their leisure time.
Kids haven't yet found a way of setting up convoys to blockade the roads and demand the mobility which might to lead to fewer of them becoming obese couch potatoes.
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Lower limits by schools could follow America's example that no vehicle is allowed to pass a school bus that is stopped to pick up or drop off school children. That's right you just have to wait.
All this does is reinforce the message to children that they are immune to danger.
We need to go beack to teaching people, especially young people, that life has risks which have to be managed.
I'm not saying we should all ignore speed limits but the onus for safety is on all troad users whether they be pedestrians, cyclists, motorists.
More anti social is the 40 tonne truck on the A14 this evening that was carving everyone up. What was the driver doing? Fag in one hand and mobile in the other! Speed camera he passed didn't seem to notice though for some strange reason!
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My list for socially unacceptable driving is as follows:
1. Driving under the influence of drugs. Lets hope simple new tests are devised quickly.
2. Driving without road tax.
3. Driving without insurance.
4. Driving a faulty car, ie a MOT failure.
5. Excessive speed.
6. Able drivers parking in disabled parking places.
7. Obstructive parking - either on yellow lines or on pavement.
8. Tailgating.
Probably will think of a few more shortly.
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Interesting thread. I am reminded of an episode of Yes Minister (early 80s) in which Jim Hacker tries to drive home after an Embassy reception despite heroic intakes of free booze. He is pulled over by a policeman but manages to talk his way out of it. The whole episode was played for laughs.
I cannot imagine that this could be done in a modern drama or sitcom. I think that is what is meant by it becoming socially acceptable.
At present, I think a sympathetic character can be portrayed on TV speeding. You could imagine a character in a sitcom getting a speeding ticket without it being at all shocking. I wonder if that will be true in 10 years time.
I think the next assault will be on smokers and smoking at the wheel. It will become an offence to do so. The law will be introduced at first to ban smoking in cars carrying children. Compelling "evidence" will then be introduced that smoking while driving is dangerous, and it will be banned (unless it is banned as a whole first, which is a distinct possibility)
In car entertainment might be next.
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-- My list for socially unacceptable driving is as follows:
1. Driving under the influence of drugs. Lets hope simple new tests are devised quickly.--
I agree entirely and was interested to note evidence given at the recent inquest into an accident on A23 near Brighton last year.
It mentioned that the 19 year old driver of the BMW which was driven at excessive speeds and crossed the central barrier killing himself , his four passengers and a couple and baby in the car he hit had traces of cannabis in his bloodstream.
What an utter waste of eightlives and I am willing to bet that cannabis affected the drivers judgement, however much people say it is harmless .
I just wonder how people can consider any tolerance of drug driving acceptable
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Quite interesting - I've known of a few people who used to smoke cannabis whilst driving and they swear that they are better drivers than normal - mainly because they drive much slower and concentrate more... never really believed it myself.
The problem with testing for cannabis is that it can stay in the bloodstream for up to 30 days, and may not be affecting the driver at all at the current time in driving - unsure if they have a way of telling when it was last taken.
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Quite interesting - I've known of a few people who used to smoke cannabis whilst driving and they swear that they are better drivers than normal - mainly because they drive much slower and concentrate more... never really believed it myself.
I doubt they are the best people to judge that they are better drivers than normal, as their judgement is probably impaired by the drug.
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If you'd have seen one of them drive before he started smoking cannabis you may not agree - An angry young driver who insisted on red lining every gear, handbrake turns, tailgating - you name he did it. The started smoking and drove like my gran...
Still that mental institution he's in now say he's a good driver!!!
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>> Quite interesting - I've known of a few people who used >> to smoke cannabis whilst driving and they swear that they are >> better drivers than normal - mainly because they drive much slower >> and concentrate more... never really believed it myself. >>
Funny enough every driver who drinks and drives always says that very same thing, the more drunk they are the more often and louder they say it.
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My list for socially unacceptable driving is as follows:
How about adding BMW owners who take up two parking spaces (as I saw recently at a gym club, in this case a Z4) to avoid getting their precious cars damaged?
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On the subject of speed traps, my wife and I were out fairly early last Saturday morning (about 7.45am) and came across a police mobile speed trap in the usual spot in Shardlow, Derbyshire. There was hardly a car on the road at the time (all of the through traffic now uses the A50 Derby West bypass). I wonder how long it had been there?
I have never seen anyone really speeding on this stretch of the road and it is one of the safest stretches of road in the area. It is wide and dead straight, there are no houses or other buildings on either side of the road and there is nothing else to obscure a driver's vision. A driver would have to be very careless not to see the unit parked up in the lay-by, from quite a distance.
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Reliance on car technology.
I have a friend who drove like a maniac in his old Micra - I thought he would calm down now he's driving a £6000 corsa - Instead the usual routine is to wait for the ABS to kick in.
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Exactly, a safe road with no population or blind spots etc. Probably safe, but not legal, to go a bit over the limit and QED - rich pickings for plod!
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Drink driving is on the way back. See the stats. No police on the roads no more PLUS never any police out on the back roads to country pubs on a Friday/Saturday night now. They police the town centres and thats it. Ask any copper.
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How about adding BMW owners who take up two parking spaces (as I saw recently at a gym club, in this case a Z4) to avoid getting their precious cars damaged?
machika, delete from "who" to end of sentence ... it'd be even more apt that way
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machika, delete from "who" to end of sentence ... it'd be even more apt that way
You'd rather I drive the Prosche exclusively, then?
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I think the de-restriction sign should be abolished. Instead all stretches of road should display their actual speed limit, as in France. So when leaving a 30mph zone you'd see a sign a '60' sign.
Without the de-restriction concept, some suitable stretches of motorway could be subject to an 80mph (or even 90mph!) limit without the general limit being raised. We'd soon get used to it!!! Even more apt if variable speed limits are going to become more widespread.
As for general raising of speed limits: People get impatient behind Mr. Flatcap in his gold XJ6 when he's doing 50 on a clear single carriageway where the limit's 60. If the limit's raised to 70, people will get impatient at poor old Flatcap when he's doing 60.
Cheers, SS
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You'd rather I drive the Prosche exclusively, then?
Depends whether the Porch is fitted with the indicator pack, the mainbeam off-switch, or the drive more than-two-milimetres-from-the-next-car's-tailgate pack. All apparently as rare as hen's teeth on BMWs, but in my experience more commonly fitted to Porches ... so the answer is probably yes :)
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Depends whether the Porch is fitted with the indicator pack, the mainbeam off-switch, or the drive more than-two-milimetres-from-the-next-car's-tailgate pack. All apparently as rare as hen's teeth on BMWs, but in my experience more commonly fitted to Porches ... so the answer is probably yes :)
If we fitted all these items to BMWs as standard, could we also fit an accelerator pedal to Nissan Micras?
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If we fitted all these items to BMWs as standard, could we also fit an accelerator pedal to Nissan Micras?
I doubt it. That'd take a complete rebuild.
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Tailgating. Should be a capital offence
-- Lee Having a Fabialous time.
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Forget about new laws.
Just enforce the existing ones.
Using mobile phones: held in hand- whilst driving.
I see lotsofpeople doing it.
As I see no traffic police, it's maybe socially unacceptable but it's a risk free crime.. (like burglary in some areas or lying to voters:-)
madf
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The entire basis of this thread is an assumption that the Government has a say in what is socially unacceptable and, by the same token, what is socially acceptable.
Am I the only one to find this, in itself, unacceptable?
In the case of drink driving, technical progress in car design made the effects of inebriation more obvious, and more serious. This led to the people regarding it as unacceptable.
In the case of speeding, that same progress is, if anything, making speeding less dangerous (although inappropriate speed is of course still objectively dangerous). Meanwhile, the authorities are trying to engineer our opinions in the direction they wish. Seemingly, they are failing.
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Meanwhile, the authorities are trying to engineer our opinions in the direction they wish. Seemingly, they are failing.
The only figures I've sen recently on public opinion was research from TPI at Napier University in Edinburgh which reported over 60% acceptance of spd cameras amongst men, and over 80% among women (can't find the link now). Do you have any other figures?
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The only figures I've sen recently on public opinion was research from TPI at Napier University in Edinburgh which reported over 60% acceptance of spd cameras amongst men, and over 80% among women (can't find the link now). Do you have any other figures?
I've said it before, but....
In certain circumstances, speed cameras can be a good thing. I could point you towards speed cameras the contribute to safety. An example is on the A4095 heading into Witney (Oxon) from the East; there is a school set back on a long driveway and which is not visible. In addition to the school markings, there is a camera, highly visible. At one time, the school was about 100 yards into a 30 limit after a previous 60 limit. The camera was effective in alerting people to the potential danger and making them slow down.
I support that camera. However, there are very many more that I do not.
So, am I in the 60% or the 40%? Depends on how you word your question. Do you have any useful figures?
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The entire basis of this thread is an assumption that the Government has a say in what is socially unacceptable and, by the same token, what is socially acceptable. Am I the only one to find this, in itself, unacceptable?
No, but at least you've noticed it ;-)
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