Has anyone else noticed the 'stiction' with the Type S? There appears to be a real relutance to allow very slight steeing adjustments especially when at speed on a straight road.
A slight, minor correction in road position normally just requires a tiny turn of the wheel but (my) Type S steering doesn't want to move until an appreciable force is applied and then, of course, the correction is too much.
Is this a function of the electrically assisted steering or tyre pressure or what I wonder?
Any thoughts?
Kind Regards
Hugh Milsom
PS '03 Type S, not the latest VSA version
hjm
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Hugh - I haven't noticed this with SWMBO's Civic Type S, although ours is the new VSA version. We test drove an original one last year and don't remember a problem. Maybe a fault or a tyre pressure problem?
What we do notice (in an otherwise excellent car) is the appalling steering lock. I even queried this with the dealer's service manager who said that all Hondas had poor locks. Our previous Jazz was fine.
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By 'steering lock' I meant the turning circle - I can see that this might look like the security lock.
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Mine (on a 52 reg) has just the same irritating fault. It's only on main roads or Mways that its obvious, but its quite disconcerting. I've raised it with the dealer but got nowhere. Its noticeable though that a hydraulic-only system on an HRV (loaner during corroing alloy wheel replacement exercise number 2) is much more linear in it steering response. Haven't heard of any mods by Honda, and as the garage have "never heard of the issue before", the issue is unresolved, but if anyone does know, any ifo on the cause would be handy.
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New advice just received is that anything to do with steering is a vital safety issue and should be checked out by a Honda dealer - just in case.
Kind Regards
Hugh Milsom
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No problems with the EPS on my Type-R when on the move, although it does occasionally lose assistance momentarily at parking speeds. And if you think the turning circle on a Type-S is poor...
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HughM: is it possible to enlarge on the new advice?
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Nothing sinister - but a quick look around the 'net just seems to indicate that Civic steering racks may, possibly, be an issue. This is anecdotal ....
www.reviewcentre.com/review140149.html for instance ....
A knowledgeable friend suggests that anything that affects something as vital as steering should be checked out just in case .... That's good advice.
I don't believe there is a real safety issue here but I'm going to try my local Honda dealer anyway. My experience of Honda Dealers is that they will help out in any way they can. That's why I'm on my second Honda!
Kind Regards
Hugh
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Thanks Hugh. There's a whole raft of comments on steering in this web-site, where there is a specific section on steering: www.civictype-r.co.uk/phpbb2/viewtopic.php?t=25311
The first entry captures the issue well: "My steering, particularly at motorway speeds is 'sticky' around the centre point. I turn the wheel to make a slight correction and it's almost as if I'm turning it against a resistance which suddenly 'gives' and thus I end up overcorrecting and the same happens in the other direction. It makes accurate placement very difficult - not what you want at speed!
I have the feeling that this is something that changes with either time or the amount of petrol in the tank."
The solution is said to be replacement of the rack supposedly affected by moisture, at manufacture. Sounds a bit speculative, though.
Most (90%) of the driving I do shows the steering to be accurate and predictable, and fully in line with HJ's comments. Its on longer runs, at Mway speeds, that something alters to make the steering feel odd, almost wilfull, and reluctant to respond. Any garage would have some difficulty in replicating that, despite mine being perfectly reasonable and willing. So, I'm reluctant to start a wild goose chase. I'd like to know though, what the makers have done and any implications for the vehicle.
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I have not looked into how electrically assisted steering is provided (assuming the Honda uses it). .I drove a demo Micra just over 12 months ago that had it and it behaved as if you were turning on the assistance as you twisted the steering wheel. .At the start, for a split second, the feel was of needing a lot of force but then in an instant it did not.
Then I drove another one and there was no sign of hesitation. .It worked as normal.
I can imagine a system whereby a sensor on the steering column detects you trying to twist the wheel and causes electrical power to give you assistance. .And that the fault was due to that detection and the turning on of the power not working properly. .If that were so, the problem may not be due to a faulty rack. .Unless the assistance is built into the rack. .Come to think of it, it may be.
Someone will be probably be along in a minute to say if that happens.
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Micra power steering I have now had a look at a service manual for a Micra (not a Honda)and the power steering assistance for that is provided by a boxed unit let into the steering column below the steering wheel and is complete with a sensor, as I suspected. The rack looks pretty normal with no assistance on it.
About the box it says something like, "No servicable parts. Replace unit if it misbehaves" I bet that is not cheap.
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buzbee: what you say makes sense, now you've explained it. I suppose that when the input to the sensor is maybe a degree or so of rotation (pure guesswork here) it sees nothing, so at that point, no assistance. Driver therefore turns further against resistance (to avoid running into another lane etc), and overdoes it. Its not a pleasant feeling - but whether its dangerous is a moot point. I'll see what Hugh achieves.
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I have an appointment at 8:30am on Friday morning with my local (at work) Honda Dealer. But after reading the link into the Type R web site I feel confident ....
Kind Regards
Hugh Milsom
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Let us know how you get on.
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My local dealer arranged for one of their experienced Technicians to drive my Civic Type S with me as passenger to assess the alleged steering problems.
He had obviously been on the Customer Care course and there was lots of ?accommodation?, ?customer satisfaction?, ?mutually agreeable outcome? (my paraphrasing). After some prodding he divulged that he had replaced steering racks on a few Civics but this was the first type S he had come across with a potential rack problem. He was aware of an issue with Type R steering racks (no details given) but not aware of the ?net discussions bout this problem.
The test drive included a mixture of dual carriageway and A and B roads. He conceded that the steering was a little lifeless and somewhat heavy and unresponsive in the centre position. The steering did not self-centre well with both hands off the wheel. He did not admit that there was a problem let alone one that necessitated replacing the rack. Instead he would arrange a full steering diagnostic session in the workshop where turning resistance under steering load and general steering alignment would be checked amongst other things. Should the investigations and interrogation of the steering electronics find no fault then I would be offered the chance to drive another Type S for comparison ?....
The Dealer?s reaction was classic Customer Care ? actively absorb all the complaints and problems, probe the customer to make sure that all the problems are out in the open and then offer words of comfort and an agreed action plan that will bring 'satisfaction to both parties'. Well done Mr Honda! They did everything by the book and they cannot be faulted.
So, next Wednesday it is then.
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Not very encouraging news - no faults found after extensive testing in the dealer workshop.
I 'phoned Honda Customer services in Langley - the very nice guy on the 'phone told me he had a type S himself and experienced the same problems. Suggested I try another dealer - which I shall.
Last resort is that someone from Honda UK may come out and try the steering but I'm beginning to hear 'that's what you get Sir' ringing in my ears. Which will be a shame. Lovely car spoilt by poor steering response which in a car with 160PS is a little disconcerting to say the least.
Anyone want to buy a Honda Civic Type S? 15K miles, 2 owners from new ....
Hugh Milsom
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Into another local dealer this Monday.
hjm
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Yes! The second Honda dealer (the dealer who sold me the car) agrees - 'not the worst (Civic steering) we have experienced but we will change the steering rack. It's not right'.
Next Wednesday. I shall report back!
Kind Regards
Hugh Milsom
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Good news Hugh! What did they do to diagnose the "fault", e.g. Mway run?
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New rack fitted - and on the short journey home it felt good. The dealer lent me a Jazz for the day - great! Really enjoyed it.
Thanks to all the contributors to this thread. Over and out.
Kind Regards
Hugh
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Hugh: glad it seems sorted: but if you could say how the responsive dealer diagnosed it in, the teeth of the seeming indifference of other dealers, that would help moi, and possibly others.
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I'll ask the question for you - to be honest yesterday I was just grateful that the work had been done and didn't question them. But the first dealer ( the ones who rejected my claim) used a 'test rig' that put the steering under load and was able to measure resistance and other stuff PLUS they said (?) that they could interrogate the steering electronics and download data such as steering load. They also claimed to be able to detect things like large pot holes .... I wonder!
Kind Regards
Hugh
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I don't know if it is dangerous or not because (a) no ones saying and (b) there is not an exploded view of how the sensing is done in the manual so that I or someone else could make an intelligent guess as to its likely reliability. .Is it simply that it has gone a bit out of its original set-up adjustment but will still work or is it on its way to failure.
Two points come to mind. .One is to write a letter to Honda to get a claim in now that it may need a replacement unit, as it is not working properly. Even saying "it appears not to be sensing the steering wheel properly". .Because this unit ain't going to be cheap if you have to pay for one.
Secondly, is there any information in the US? I have heard of Brits in the past getting failure information from the US by paying a dollar and it was much more comprehensive than you could get in the UK. But may be I am out of date now. We did not have the web.
Perhaps shortly a well known contributor here will come on and tell us the sensing method used. It will not be just movement. It has to include sensing the turning force, methinks.
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I am not familiar with the Honda EPAS system, but the EPAS that I *have* looked at uses an optically-based torque-sensing arrangement.
Basically there is a section of the column that is thinner than the rest. An optical coder disc is mounted each end of the thin section and a beam of light passes through the two code wheels. As the column is turned the thin section twists slightly, changing the optical signal (along the lines of a rotary encoder). You therefore effectively have a 'torsion spring' in the steering column and the system will not give any assitance until it detects some torque. I wonder if this is what you are 'feeling' through the wheel?
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Glad to hear of the approach being taken by your dealer Hugh. Await the verdict with interest.
Interesting method of detecting torque Aprilia: hadn't heard of this before. It must be very subtle to pick up small movements of the wheel around the straight-ahead position.
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Glad to hear of the approach being taken by your dealer Hugh. Await the verdict with interest. Interesting method of detecting torque Aprilia: hadn't heard of this before. It must be very subtle to pick up small movements of the wheel around the straight-ahead position.
Yes; the 'torsion bar with optical coders' is the technology used by TRW on their EPAS systems.
I looked through some of my technical papers and found that Honda use a magnetic polar ring (alternate N-S poles) and a magnetoresistive pickup to detect column rotation. The neutral (straight ahead) position is detected from a magnet pin in the column with a Hall Effect pickup.
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Finally! So I really am not going mad! I've had this strange floaty steering experience with my Honda Civic too (1.6SE, 2001(Y)). I thought that I was the only one.
Incidentally, my steering rack started making grinding noises which was replaced by Honda, however the vague steering still persists.
It really is a disconcerting experience and takes some of the enjoyment out of an otherwise exceptional car.
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Hallelujah! I'm not alone, either! 2003 5-door Civic 1.6 Inspire S. Exactly the same problem as Hughm, by the sound of it. Started suddenly at just under 11,000 miles. Dealer claimed they couldn't feel anything wrong with it (and they did actually drive it, too, so I really don't know how they couldn't) but after about 3 goes at fixing it, replaced the rack under warranty. I got the impression they thought I was a nutter, though, which wasn't great... Seems to be better now, which is good - it was spoiling my enjoyment of what has otherwise been the best car I've owned.
I have also found that in order to minimise vagueness and wandering at speed you have to keep the tyre pressures absolutely spot on (in fact I very, very slightly over-inflate - 2.1 and a bit bar as opposed to 2.1 exactly, which is the prescribed pressure).
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Sorry, meant to say - my dealer did mention they'd had a couple of other Civics with the same problem, and that there was a known issue with the Type-R to do with "geometry", although they weren't any more specific than that.
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