I've just received s reminder from the Sussex Safety Camera Gang to say I haven't replied to an NIP sent on 6 December regarding a 36mph offence on 28 November. I have never received the NIP.
I phoned the SSCG and the woman informed me that it had come to their attention that a lot of NIPs sent out on that date had got lost in the post. "Just send back the form you've just received" she said.
I was aware of the offence, but on the basis of the non-receipt within 14 days, am I entitled to challenge the invitation to now provide driver details? If so, what are the probable consequences?
I've looked on the Pepipoo site, but there's nothing specific about the Camera Gang admitting their NIPs got lost in the post.
TIA
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You probably need to post on Pepipoo, but my take would be (IANAL though!):
"Lot of NIPs got lost in the post" translates as "We/our computer stuffed up and failed/forget to send them, so now we're trying it on with 'reminders'"
I would write back and point out that you have not received the original, and hence this 'reminder' is outside of the 14 days, and will the SCP provide evidence that they actually posted the letter within 14 days of the offence, by an approved method. They might come back with a proof of posting, or a new NIP for failure to name the driver - in which case you can ask for said evidence in court, then if produced cough for the offence, but more likely your case will be 're-considered'.
I don't like the way the SCPs have been set up, and think we should do all we can to make sure they are playing by the rules - this is a prime
--
RichardW
Is it illogical? It must be Citroen....
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1. If Reg Keeper of the vehicle involved is other than Alfa was a NOIP sent to R.K. and received within 14 days? If so good service even though not sent to Alpha.
2. If Alpha is the Reg Keeper then SCP have to SEND OUT a NOIP by Reg Post or Rec Delivery or 1st Class Post to him for receipt within 15days from the date of the offence IN THE NORMAL COURSE OF THE POST. If they posted out on say day 7 then good service but not if posted out on day 14. If they have evidence posted out on day 7 then despite non receipt that is good service.
3, Any NEW NOIP now sent out is invalid as out of time so there can be no conviction for exceeding a speed limit. But a 172 request to name driver appears to be still valid as it has no such time scale.
4. Good advice from Richard W. Try a letter as he suggests.
5. Bear in mind that at the end of the day the matter of non service is decided at Mags Court as the law states NOIP served unless the contrary is proved.
DVD
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Thanks for the advice so far. I?m having a bit of trouble registering for Pepipoo so until that?s resolved will continue posting here.
I?ve no problem in giving the name of the driver (it was me and I am the RK) as I don?t want the hassle of an NIP for failing to name.
Should I send back the driver details with a covering letter asking for evidence of posting?
Should I point out that failure to notify within 14 days invalidates original NIP?
Is it to my advantage or disadvantage to be seen as an awkward so-and-so?
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Its a bit delicate now A as when the papers were originally sent out they would be accompanied by the S172 request to name the driver, and for which you are allowed 28 days to reply, before they go into prosecution mode. So if they are adamant that papers sent out then they may proceed, but not sure they would.
But you say you never got the original NOIP/172.
Do another review of events from what you now know. You may consider sending that letter pointing out that before committing details as to driver under S172 then from the information you have i.e. NOIP not received by you and information by phone it appears that NOIP has not been served in accordance with the law so no conviction can be obtained for the offence of speeding. Ask if they would consider reviewing the paperwork and advise you of what action they propose.
Be aware that there is nothing that can compel them to do this and they can go ahead for a Court action for failing to name, or if you return the 172 signed, for going ahead for speeding.It is in the later arena that the full argument on service of NOIP will have to be aired.
On the otherhand if they accept NOIP not served in accordance with law they may drop everything.
DVD
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>>Ask if they would consider reviewing the paperwork and advise you of what action they propose.
If nothing else, DVD, thank you that delightful turn of phrase. I must remember it.
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Thanks DVD, I'll take you advice and keep the BR posted.
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Just bringing the BR up to date on the developments.
As suggested I wrote to the SSCU on 14 Jan, but didn?t decline to give my name as the driver.
?You have now requested that I supply the name of the owner/driver of the vehicle which I am providing on the attached form. However, it appears that the original NIP was not issued in accordance with the law and, as I did not receive it within 14 days of the alleged offence, no conviction can be obtained for the offence of speeding.
May I ask if you would consider reviewing the paperwork and advise me of what action you propose.?
I received a ?Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty? yesterday, giving me 28 days to reply. There was a hand-written note attached which said:
"We are required by law to send out a NIP within 14 days of the date of the offence as per DVLA records. The original notice was sent out 8 days after and as such still stands".
Briefly, the Conditional Offer gives me the choice between being considered for a Fixed Penalty by returning my licence together with £60 or contesting the allegation in court. It seems clear that contesting it means the withdrawal of the conditional offer.
My view is that I?ve got better things to do than play games by being a crusader. I don?t need the hassle. I was caught fair and square so I?m going to pay up (but not for three weeks) and take the points. They?ll be the first points since 1999 so are unlikely to have effects on my insurance.
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I'm getting confused, here,
If I am reading this right,
1 the offence is commited.
2 the NOIP and the RK/ND are posted by police/scp. to reach offender within 14 days.
3 police/scp follow up on non-reply.
In this case Alfafan did not receive forms and was not aware of NOIP until reminder sent.
The police/scp do not have to prove delivery, only posting, is this correct?
The offender has to prove he didn't receive it? How can you prove that you havn't received something that you may not be expecting and therefore are not looking for?
If I posted a cheque for mail order goods and it didn't arrive, I can't see the supplier sending them anyway, even if I proved posting. I suppose that I, as sender, would have to pursue the Post Office, I don't think the supplier would.
I thought that once something was posted, it became, in effect, the property of the Post Office until it was delivered.
I am not suggesting that Alfafan does other than pay up. They make the fine high enough to be worth collecting but low enough for the "average" offender not want the hassle.
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As an aside, what appears to be a little-known* service can be invaluable in cases like this or when selling/buying on the internet.
The Cerificate of Posting costs you nothing and even provides insurance cover of (IIRC) up to £26 for lost or damaged items.
Why the camera thieves don't use it escapes me.
*Probably because it's not publicised and it's free.
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Commiserations Alpha and thank you for updating.
Nothing ventured, nothing gained. Your letter will have caused SCP to look at their paperwork on your case and if you had been lucky they could have found that NOIP had not been sent out in time or not at all (very doubtful) in which case they would had had to shut up as their case could not be prosecuted.
It is obvious that they can bring evidence either by certificate of service (a signed declaration of date posted) attached to the file and which can be produced at Court and accepted as such or oral evidence by the poster, that NOIP sent out on 11th Dec (8th day after) leaving 7 days for postie to do his job, well within the normal course of the post.
Your proposed course of action now seems the only way to go.
DVD
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Do insurance companies up the premium if you get 3 points on a clean licence. Which companies do charge and which do not. Although the NIP was not quite legal due to non receipt and admission by the office you filled in the NIP and returned it. This is taken as 'Guilty as Charged' you no longer have a say in the matter even if you plead not guilty and go to court. Sorry. Regards Peter
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