Not surprised to see Citroen, Peugeot and Renault there. It is truly a mystery to me why anybody would buy a French car. Feels like they are made from tin, plastic and bent wire... build quality reminiscent of British Leyland at its worst...
I have often wondered how come the French have three volume car makers and the Brits have none.
If you look at who buys these cars, it seems to me to break down into three categories: the French themselves, particularly the government (French police don't run BMWs!); people who know nothing about cars and think they are getting a great deal; and the aspiring middle-class who know they're crap but overlook the fact because they think being French excuses any number of eccentricities.
That surely can't be enough to support three manufacturers. Which only leaves massive state subsidies. Surely, the French would never break EU law in that way, would they? Oh, I was forgetting, it's them that write the law, isn't it!
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Time to start a new Renault bashing thread RF.
The French really do love their own cars, but not to fear they are buying Japanese and Korean cars more than ever before.
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"people who know nothing about cars and think they are getting a great deal; and the aspiring middle-class who know they're crap but overlook the fact because they think being French excuses any number of eccentricities."
I know lots about cars, am not aspiring middle class, and my car does not have any eccentricities.
Wish to pigeon hole me somewhere else?
How about as a driver of an very good looking car with good performance and excelent economy, providing many hours of comfortable and reliable mile munching?
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Well said RF. I get tired of defending the ultra reliable Cits I have owned since 1987 all of which (except the present ones)have done over 100k.
My wife's Xantia HDi Exclusive is also "a very good looking car with good performance and excelent economy, providing many hours of comfortable and reliable mile munching" and my Berlingo does exactly as I expect it to and is surprisingly good to drive. I'm going out now to search for eccentricities - unless of course "somebody" counts the superb ride of the Xantia.
What car does Mr Somebody drive? And what does he think of Italian cars???
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I drive a Lexus but my all time favourite car is the Vauxhall Cavalier V6. Tough as nails, reliable, fast and comfortable. I'm pleased a couple of posters here like their French cars. Personally I don't know anybody who has tried one - my former company included - who hasn't bitterly regretted it. You only have to look at resale values for your Citroens to see what the trade thinks of them.
I love Italian cars. I've never owned one, but several people I know who have run Alfas, the 156 springs to mind, love them and have had very few problems.
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Oh and if YOU knew anything about cars you would know the French have TWO volume car makers. The Peugeot/Citroen group and Renault.
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That surely can't be enough to support three manufacturers. Which only leaves massive state subsidies. Surely, the French would never break EU law in that way, would they? Oh, I was forgetting, it's them that write the law, isn't it!
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I believe Renault and PSA are doing OK, financially. Certainly Renault were wise enough to buy into Nissan, whereas the 'astute' British government merely handed out cash and massive subsidies to Nissan to enable them set up screwdriver plants here (not to mention all the subsidies given to the other Japanese/Korean etc etc manufactures who dangled the carrot of a factory in an unemployment blackspot). I think the French got the better deal!
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Most countries will give money to help the development of the car industry, the French have done it in the past. The US and Eastern Europe are helping funding of Hyundai/Kia & Toyota factories at the moment.
At the time when Renault bought a share in Nissan it was losing lots of money, in the USA they are doing well but not that well in Europe.
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>>screwdriver plants >>
You've obviously never been round the Nissan, Toyota and Honda UK manufacturing plants then...:-)
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By the way, I've just received my (Press) copy of the Which? reliability report.
It's embargoed until Saturday, September 4th - not much point in the report being sent out so early then, in contrast to the normal monthly issue, if it becomes such a topic of forum interest.
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>>screwdriver plants >> You've obviously never been round the Nissan, Toyota and Honda UK manufacturing plants then...:-)
Not been around Honda, but have been around Toyota (done some consultancy work for them last year on an electrical problem) and also worked for some months at Nissan on problem they had with the Primera (but that was 10 years ago). The UK plants are all what I would term 'screwdriver plants' - in relative terms there is not a lot of R&D goes on here, what does go on tends to be undertaken by the suppliers.
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My understanding of a screwdriver plant is one where something is assembled from parts brought in from all parts of the country or even worldwide.
The UK plants manufacture and assemble bodyshell panels, engines (Toyota's engine plant is on Deeside) etc and other parts come on a Just In Time basis from suppliers, who have built their own factories close by.
All these Japanese UK plants demand staggering minimum failure rates for parts (less than one in a million plus in certain instances); on top of that such suppliers are expected to consistently raise those standards whilst, at the same time, bring down plant purchasing costs.
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My understanding of a screwdriver plant is one where something is assembled from parts brought in from all parts of the country or even worldwide. The UK plants manufacture and assemble bodyshell panels, engines (Toyota's engine plant is on Deeside) etc and other parts come on a Just In Time basis from suppliers, who have built their own factories close by. All these Japanese UK plants demand staggering minimum failure rates for parts (less than one in a million plus in certain instances); on top of that such suppliers are expected to consistently raise those standards whilst, at the same time, bring down plant purchasing costs.
Stuartli
I have worked as a design engineer in motor industry for a long long time, including working for Rover, GM, Ford, Jag (pre-Ford) and various consultancies (e.g. MIRA near Nuneaton) so I have a pretty good idea of what goes on.
To me a 'screwdriver plant' is where there is manufacturing and assembly, but no R&D - i.e. the intellectual property is located elsewhere. I think it is true to say that most Japanese companies still do most of their R&D in Japan. Subassemblies are often put out to suppliers, who do the design work. E.g. if you buy an Avensis the power window switches are supplied by TRW, who designed them according to Toyota (Japan) brief. The bits and pieces inside the switch packs (i.e. the silicone contacts and PCB) are actually made in China and shipped over here.
JIT is very over-hyped in the UK. Not a lot of stuff is done JIT in this country. I remember being at Rover Cowley when the Rover 600 line had just started up. I went to lunch with one of the managers and he started droning on about how the fuel tanks and exhausts came JIT from Unipart just up the road. I asked about the engines - 'Oh, they're on a three-month lead time from Japan'. It then turned out they had a surplus boat full of 2.3 Honda engines somewhere in the Pacific - people were buying the 2.0 but not the 2.3 - so they had to stockpile loads of expensive 2.3 engines for a while..
In terms of QC Toyota is pretty near the top - they demand about 5ppm from suppliers, which is a factor of 10 or more up on some other manufacturers....
For cultural reasons the Japanese are very reluctant to allow much technical R&D outside of Japan. There is a good book on Japanese industrial practice - "Inside Japan's Powerhouses" by Kevin Rafferty. This attitude is probably changing a bit nowadays though - (i.e. Nissan/Renault; Ford/Mazda etc.).
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To be very pedantic, the Japanese (among others) discovered long ago that QA is the way to build anything and that QC is not. QA means building in quality at all stages from design to manufacture and for empowering people to fix things that are wrong in the process. QC means finding faults and fixing them - often after delivery.
Honda and Toyota do masses of QA and, by the look of the warranty costs, very little QC.
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I agree with Aprilia that JIT is over-hyped.
I used to work for a company that transported widgets for a (well known) Japanese car factory from Germany.
They wanted a delivery of 240 widgets per day, no more, no less.
We would keep a reserve of one week's supply in a warehouse, for which we would charge storage.
Every now and then one of their robots would work through their tea-break, or something, so we would deliver 1 widget from our emergency stock of 10 (for which storage was charged), and charge them for the delivery.
So what is the point?
JIT is not really saving them any money, whether they realise it or not.
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It is truly a mystery to me why anybody would buy a French car...
The Toyota Yaris tops the best buy list. Would anyone like to guess where it's made? Clue: not Japan.
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>>Would anyone like to guess where it's made>>
Strange mix really, a Japanese model with a Down Under derived model name and built in a country close to the south of Great Britain...:-)
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>> It is truly a mystery to me why anybody would buy a French >> car... The Toyota Yaris tops the best buy list. Would anyone like to guess where it's made? Clue: not Japan.
Some 1.0 models were/are assembled in France and the early models of these, according to HJ's car-by-car breakdown, were the ones that gave quality problems.
I believe all the 1.3 models are made in Japan - or they were until recently.
Regardless of where they were assembled they are Japanese cars.
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>>Regardless of where they were assembled they are Japanese cars>>
It's the methods of construction and quality control that are important, not the country in which they are built.
>>Some 1.0 models were/are assembled in France and the early models of these ....... were the ones that gave quality problems>>
Now there's a strange thing...:-))
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The reason the French have kept their 3 manufacturers is because each brand they each have their distinct selling points.
Renault - Safety, designs that develop new markets (16, Scenic, Espace, etc.)
Peugeot - Driver satisfaction and comfort.
Citroen - Generally value in the UK.
The British from the shopfloor right up to the boardroom were too busy fighting each other to realise where the real competition was coming from.
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