The poor state of the EV charging infrastructure in this country will no doubt be putting off some potential buyers.

Whatever you might think about Tesla and Elon Musk, at least they knew that they would struggle for customers if chargers weren’t readily available. This is why they had the foresight to build the large Tesla supercharger network, firstly in North America, then in other continents.

I think it’s true that the amount of cleaner energy generated here is going up, but we don’t get the full benefit of this because of our lack of energy storage here. This will improve as homeowners invest in home powerwall type batteries and the government invests in grid scale battery packs, eg Tesla megapacks. UK builds Europe's biggest battery out of Tesla Megapacks - DCD

https://www.datacenterdynamics.com/en/news/uk-builds-europes-biggest-battery-out-of-tesla-megapacks/

Grid scale energy storage would enable us to store excess wind power generated overnight and feed it back to the grid the next day to help demand.

EV batteries can and will be recycled. If you look into Redwood materials as an example, they are scaling up lithium battery recycling. They have said that a very high percentage of the different elements used in these batteries can be recovered and reused without much loss of their original properties. www.redwoodmaterials.com/

Edited by Oli rag on 10/02/2024 at 07:45

It’s looking like Toyota has been the major beneficiary of the reluctance of motorist to go headlong into EVs. With sales and profits up significantly with other manufacturers backtracking on their investments in EVs.

Taking a world wide approach they realise that many nations do not have a reliable electric supply and the hybrid version is much more adaptable.

And speaking to a taxi driver the other day who has covered 650 k miles in his Prius, used night and day , what other manufacturer can produce a car with this reliabilty and life expectancy . The same technology can be found in other cars from this manufacturer including the RAV4.

I’m going to be a bit contrary and say that the Tesla Supercharger network is an overstated benefit. It’s only 12% of the UK rapid charging network last time I looked, and that percentage is falling as other networks are rapidly expanding. There are currently 887 Tesla-only rapids in the UK but 8295 Shell Recharge units. And, don’t forget, Tesla are gradually opening up their network to everyone else. Tesla owners swear by them, but tend not to use anything else as their satnavs send them to Tesla chargers. Latest stats are - 55301 public chargers in the UK, up 1436 in the month. Of those, 10541 are rapids, up by 368 in the month. There’s a 46% increase in public charger numbers since January 2023.

Tesla were very early to the EV market and had the foresight to realise that a limited charging network would be a major barrier to sales of EVs.

In 2015 when Tesla started selling in the UK there were less than 1000 fast chargers in the UK - there are now ~10000.

II doubt they ever expected to make money from chargers (at one point I recall it was a freebie) merely achieve market dominance.

Edited by Terry W on 10/02/2024 at 10:19

I’m going to be a bit contrary and say that the Tesla Supercharger network is an overstated benefit. It’s only 12% of the UK rapid charging network last time I looked, and that percentage is falling as other networks are rapidly expanding. There are currently 887 Tesla-only rapids in the UK but 8295 Shell Recharge units. And, don’t forget, Tesla are gradually opening up their network to everyone else. Tesla owners swear by them, but tend not to use anything else as their satnavs send them to Tesla chargers. Latest stats are - 55301 public chargers in the UK, up 1436 in the month. Of those, 10541 are rapids, up by 368 in the month. There’s a 46% increase in public charger numbers since January 2023.

Isn't it the case that the early buyers of Tesla's get free charging at Tesla Superchargers although more recent owners don't.

In this thread you may:

Ask any question for EVs which you need help, advice, suggestions or whatever.....

My questions are about engines. The heart of a car, and usually the most likely to give rise to big bills when it goes wrong, is the engine. There is much discussion about the relative merits and capabilits of various ICEs. i see very little about electric engines, or 'motors' as they seem to be called. Is there much difference between, say, Tesla, Nissan or BYD engines? Do some bearings and windings last longer than others? Do some have a better power to weight ratio? How many miles can one expect from them before they go seriously wrong?

BMW I3s had engine issues.

Failed bearings, Ditto Tesla on the S model. Pictures of rebuilds on UTuibe

Not easy on I3 - Lots of dismantling required especially the REX models. Faulty design meant lubrication was marginal.. changed bearing type 2017 iirc. Special bearing grease required.. BMW don;t sell it nor do they support garage repairs.

Life ? lucky 150k + miles . Unlucky 30-40k miles. Symptoms: Noisy...

Edited by madf on 10/02/2024 at 12:36

I have never heard anyone in the workplace or pub talking about environmental issues either

Trouble is most people cannot see beyond the end of their nose.

Loads of evidence that we are changing our planet, you don't need to read about it, just look around you.

Personally I have done what I can to help. The Superb is a PHEV and I use electricity whenever I can and all the time on local trips. The wifes new Yaris hybrid should be with us next month and whilst not a huge step up on the excellent Fabia it will help especially in town. The Caterham had a historic Ford x-flow in it 31 years ago when I built it fitted with 2 x 45 Webers and clockwork ignition with a race cam. On a good day you could get about 20 mpg, less of you pushed on. Now its got a modern Ford Zetec in it fitted with fuel injection. Its more powerful, way better to drive and in the same use it will average about 36 mpg.

But not only that but our annual mileages have reduced not only following Covid but also with retirement. Back in the 90's we were doing about 35,000 miles a year in the 3 cars, now its closer to 10,000 miles.

If everyone could manage that whilst not perfect it would certainly help.

Perhaps you should've considered only owning one (smaller, high mpg) car in retirement, avoiding all the extra emissions from creating the second. A hire car would then be used if so required for towing / long (holiday) journeys, etc, e.g. with lots of luggage capacity, etc.

Doing a low annual mileage and regularly buying new cars contributes a significant amount of CO2 per mile driven. Not so bad if you're doing a much higher annual mileage or keeping the car for a lot longer. Plus it saves you a small fortune in depreciation (easily offsetting any improvements in mpg and reliability / maintenance costs), especially if you keep the car 10 years instead of 3-4.

Worked hard all our live, have 3 pensions each and savings. We don't want to have only one car. We have been tempted to buy something special such as a Merc or BMW but it would make no sense. Happy with the type of cars we have.

A quick tap suggest we were using 1,064 gallons of petrol a year in the early 90's to do our mileage, now we use about 178 gallons a year. If we were still doing our early 90's mileage we would still only be using about 623 gallons, little more than 1/2. That is how much the efficiency of modern cars has improved.

I make the same argument for people changing their 'old' 75-80% efficient boiler that's 7-10 years old (but still is reasonably reliable, having good availability of spares and expertise to maintain them) by shelling out £2k - £3k (or more) for a new 90% efficient boiler that 'saves' them about £100 a year in gas, but which will have a lifespan of 15-20 years, 25 if you're very lucky.

We had a Baxi back boiler at the old 3 bed house (early 30's and about 1100 sq/ft) and used about 1500 m3 of gas annually. Where we live now its 4 bed and about 1,600 sq/ft and dates to the mid 50's. Its a Vaillant Combi and its uses about 1,000 m3 a year. That is a saving of just over £400 a year.

Wifes uncle lives in a small 2 bed council bungalow dating back to the mid 70's, its about 500 sq/ft. It had a back boiler like we had in the old house and since he never really goes out and has the heating up high he used about 1,800 m3 a year. Last February the council fitted new Ideal Combi boilers to all the properties on his estate that still had the old boilers. With the house just as hot as before and never going out he has used about 1,000 m3 in the last 12 months. That is a whopping saving of about £650 a year.

So much for your £100 a year figure.

Edited by skidpan on 10/02/2024 at 14:01

"- but I haven’t seen a drill down on how many of the issues were EV specific and how many were build quality issues either from manufacturers new to building cars or legacy manufacturers new to building EV’s."

Getting back to John F's question...

I think that's a really interesting point as more data becomes available. Comparisons between EV-only manufacturers such as Tesla who have decent expertise in the EV aspect but not general manufacturing and the traditional ICE manufacturers who are the reverse of that.

I suspect there's a huge amount of component sharing going on as with current ICE. The difference is how those parts all all assembled.

I get the impression that Tesla's problems have been more to do with assembly ("build quality") and not so much the electric tech.

‘Only 3% of cars on UK roads are EVs’ Not doubting the veracity of that for a moment, but last month 14.7% of new registrations were EV. As those older ICE’s come to the end of their lives, they will inevitably be replaced in EV’s, so the total stock in the UK fleet will grow.

That's fine if you can charge at home and have plenty of money. Many can only spend 5K on a car and would have to take out a loan to pay for it. Such people would just buy a secondhand petrol or diesel car.

According to this mornings press EVs are being reduced by up to 24%…Mokka …dealers needing to lower stock etc. Folks looking for an EV have a good opportunity to get a decent deal.

Trouble is, like many modern-day cars, they were already way too expensive to start with. Taking 24% off is making them just 'expensive'. I can still remember when the brokers were offering discounts ranging from 15-30% for ICE cars with starting prices well under £20k back in 2016/17.

A lot of the latest stock of cars are likely still being offered (with reductions) at prices nearer to £30k than £20k. Back then, the ICE versions could easily be had (after discounts) for well half the lowest the EV versions are now going for.

Utter madness in my view. Surely they must've known that EVs aren't for the mass market for the next (probably) 20 years or more because it just costs too much?

There are still plenty of deals to be had if you look.

For example, a Megane E-Tech which lists for about £40k is easily available for £22-£23k at around 12 months old and 6k miles.

You can get a brand new MG4 for £21855 on a 24-plate (check Autotrader).

The market will ultimately decide transaction prices regardless of list just like it always has.

Watch this interesting clip from Harry’s garage . He’s back in a diesel after trying an EV and a PHEV..

Industry fears of complying with Euro 7 have a lotto answer for but Jonathan Palmer has redifined a luxury car as one that will cover 600 miles in a week without the need to refuel.

https://youtu.be/nZysvgm2_Aw?feature=shared

Watch this interesting clip from Harry’s garage . He’s back in a diesel after trying an EV and a PHEV..

Industry fears of complying with Euro 7 have a lotto answer for but Jonathan Palmer has redifined a luxury car as one that will cover 600 miles in a week without the need to refuel.

https://youtu.be/nZysvgm2_Aw?feature=shared

A fairly sensible and balanced without most of the ranting which bedevils the anti-EV brigade. However:

• the focus on £100k+ motors is of zero consequence for most
• 600 mile range - unimportant - most never drive that far, bladders can't cope - tech solution - catheter, drip, chocolate bars
• the cost of EV vs ICE is rapidly closing - depreciation likely to be less of an issue

Whether only 30% of car sales will be EV depends largely on laws and incentives. I doubt there will be a major u-turn - the ascendancy of EV in the UK is pretty much assured.

No-one suggests that a 600 mile trip would be done without stopping for "comfort breaks" - when EVs can recharge in 5-10 mins, albeit at a price, then they'll be a lot more practical for those of us who don't do a regular short commute.

Fair enough if you've got at least two drivers but I prefer to make stops part of the holiday, having a meal or coffee, that sort of thing. Each to their own though.

Octopus are offering free charging for compatible Leafs if you sign up for vehicle-to-grid charging.

If you need a car to get to work and your taxable personal income is low, this is the deal for you.

No initial deposit, no balloon payment just €40 per month for 37 months.

if you want servicing included add €6 per month

Insure with any company.

Obviously with government assistance.

Terms and conditions apply.

www.renault.fr/leasing-electrique.html

I’ve never come across the kneecap seat height measurement criteria before.

You are not alone. Over the years I have advised hundreds of people in sedentary occupations with back problems. Nowadays you can just search 'best height for office chair....'

To be fair, the weather has been quite mild this past week for the time of year, and you probably would have got closer to that 10% (or below) has it been nearer the norm.

Did you have backup plans to charge up (partially) if, for example, there were significant jams on the way down and/or had the charger(s) at the hotel been fault or already used?

One of the downsides to EVs appears to be the significant variation in coverage/availability, performance and reliability of chargers, whereas at least with filling stations, you can reasonably expect them to be working, delivery fuel at an expected rate and open as advertised.

Seems that a good deal of contingency planning for longer journeys is required, something I suspect a lot of people won't have the patience for at best.

Incidentally, how much did the hotel charge you (pardon the pun) to fully charge up your car? Given the current (and likely to persist for a good number of years) hard economic times, I suspect that hotels, motorway service stations et all will be looking to make a decent profit from EV charging as margins are reduced on the main element of their business.

‘ Did you have backup plans to charge up (partially) if, for example, there were significant jams on the way down and/or had the charger(s) at the hotel been fault or already used?’ If there was a significant hold up then my power consumption would have been minimal, and I arrived in High Wycombe with enough miles in the tank not to worry about it a plan B. There are enough alternatives in the town in the unlikely event that all three chargers here weren’t working. It really is nowhere near as scary as you think.

Depends on where you live or need to drive to. My home region as well the part of the country where I regularly holiday is not exactly well served by fast chargers and/or in handy locations for what you're doing when you reach your destination.

Rather like mobile phone / high speed internet coverage, EV charging network coverage and quality is improving, but it's still best the nearer you get to larger / well-off urban areas.

‘ Incidentally, how much did the hotel charge you (pardon the pun) to fully charge up your car?’ 50p per kW/h on a 22kW AC output. Significantly cheaper than an a typical public car park charger.

Sounds like the hotel is cross-subsidising its purchase and use in other pricing, probably including non-EV owners. Doesn't sound fair to me, and I wonder how long that will continue?