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Peace of change - SLO76
Well after a long battle against swmbo’s demands for an electric car she has finally got one. I threw a Volvo XC60 (turned out to be a bad one) and a Honda HRV at the problem, but to no avail. She has gone and bought a used Nissan Leaf on her own. On the upside I no longer have to pay half the cost of her car, this is her flying solo by electricity.

I’ve flogged the HRV, took a tumble on it but that’s the norm in year one of ownership as you lose the dealers margin and vat and it’s too rich for me to sell from the door so it has gone to a local car buyer I’m friendly with who sells direct to trade for £800 more than WBAC offered. I’ll miss it, I really rate the wee car. It’s practical, lusty, great on fuel, utterly reliable and comfortable. It never put a foot wrong, other than the high level rear brake light mysteriously unplugging itself.

I’m used to stretching out the battery on the electric buses I drive daily, but it won’t suit her leaden right foot driving style. But she is happy and as quiet as her new car… for now. I will say that the Leaf is practical and nice to drive. It’s quiet, it rides well, grips decently and pulls strongly, and she’s managed to get a good deal from Cinch. I’ve never bought a car unseen before (I still haven’t, it’s all hers) but it wasn’t possible to ignore as it was almost £3,000 cheaper than the local Nissan dealer for a near identical car. So cheap I’m a bit suspicious. I’ll see what it’s like when it turns up on Monday.

I wager that I’ll still have old Terrance the Toyota long after the Leaf is history.
Peace of change - nellyjak
I’ll see what it’s like when it turns up on Monday. I wager that I’ll still have old Terrance the Toyota long after the Leaf is history.

I'd say that's a given, SLO.

Peace of change - _
I’ll see what it’s like when it turns up on Monday. I wager that I’ll still have old Terrance the Toyota long after the Leaf is history.

I'd say that's a given, SLO.

Someone close by had a new leaf, and after 18 months it was gone. Now have a hybrid.

One slightly used wall charger for sale.

Peace of change - SLO76
“ Someone close by had a new leaf, and after 18 months it was gone. Now have a hybrid.

One slightly used wall charger for sale.”

I look forward to saying ‘told you so’ to her.
Peace of change - Engineer Andy
“ Someone close by had a new leaf, and after 18 months it was gone. Now have a hybrid. One slightly used wall charger for sale.” I look forward to saying ‘told you so’ to her.

((Chuckle))

I know how you feel - my dad just bought a 2yo Fiesta Titanium 125PS without consulting anyone after his previous (from new) 08 plate Fiesta Style 1.25 (essenitally near base model - no A/C!) and, well, he doesn't exactly like his 'new' car - after a month. Too many dislikes to list!

Needless to say, it ain't just one thing, and not helped by him been an official 'old geezer' now and stubborn, rarely taking anyone's advice. I didn't even know he was 'seriously looking' - which I don't believe, as he was 'invited to a special sales event' by his local main dealer.

IMHO he was played. Hopefully you haven't been, but as you say, getting £3k off the going price at dealers in today's market would get my spidey sense tingling.

Edited by Engineer Andy on 16/05/2023 at 19:49

Peace of change - sammy1

A 23 reg electric Leaf near where I live. It is a nice looking car and I was surprised how big it looks. May be Mrs SLO should join the forum!

Peace of change - SLO76
“ May be Mrs SLO should join the forum!”

She could pick an argument in an empty room.
Peace of change - Big John

To be honest many of my friends now have hybrids and more and more of them have electric cars. The hybrids (mostly Toyota, 1 Lexus, 1 Mitsuhashi) have been utterly reliable and it's a bit early to say re electric although SiL has had a Leaf for quite a few years. Others include Hyundai Kona, Kia Niro, Tesla model S - thus far all love them and have no intention of going back to a ICE car. All of these are privately owned.

I shared the driving on a long run in the Tesla S and was rather taken, even after you get bored playing with the rapid acceleration. The whole process of driving down and up the country was rather joined up (only Tesla though!). Programmed in a stop at Rugby for a charge - turned up at the Tesla charger undid the cable and as you approached the car the flap opened, plug in and walk away. The battery went from 45% to 92% full in the time we had a comfort break plus coffee / naughty pastry. If I still had a job like I used to have back in the 80's early 90's with a company car pounding the motorways I think it would be a fab choice.

For me now as a retired private owner - not yet re electric. I have the opposite problem to SLO - Mrs BJ is a Yorkshire lass so want's to spend as little as possible on this motoring malarkey. She's also a fully paid up member of the Luddite society. I'd consider a hybrid but thus far only really trust the Toyota gubbins - the problem being most Toyotas are a bit bijou for my tall / large frame.

Edited by Big John on 16/05/2023 at 21:13

Peace of change - Metropolis.
Big John - you might like the recent Toyota Camry, not sold new anymore I dont think but the approved used are available. Brilliant cars.
Peace of change - Big John
Big John - you might like the recent Toyota Camry, not sold new anymore I dont think but the approved used are available. Brilliant cars.

Thanks, I'll have a look.

Peace of change - Metropolis.
As much as I like helping people choose cars, it is almost a relief when they go rogue. Nothing worse than recommending a car only for it to give them heaps of trouble.

Is the Leaf more Nissan than Renault?
Peace of change - SLO76
As much as I like helping people choose cars, it is almost a relief when they go rogue. Nothing worse than recommending a car only for it to give them heaps of trouble. Is the Leaf more Nissan than Renault?

I struggle to contain the smug ‘I told you’ inner monster, I believe the Leaf is generally reliable, to be honest most EV’s are, there’s not much to go wrong. The only fear is the battery pack but that’s guaranteed for 8yrs on these and it’ll be offloaded before then.
Peace of change - Alby Back
Hmmm, you do know that if something is, or subsequently goes wrong with the deal or the car, that it will still be your fault, even though you have had little or nothing to do with it?
;-)
Peace of change - pd

LEAFs seem to be a bit "old school Japanese" in terms of build and reliability. They're not like the Renault based ICE models.

Assuming this is a Mk 2 I've seen enough of them still going strong at well over 100k after having been hacked around as a London taxi and no doubt abused in any which way possible to suspect they're pretty decent on the longevity front.

Peace of change - bazza

Please report back on the leaf, running costs, range etc. It would probably be my choice if looking for a nearly new EV. As it is, I'm very happy with our recent Swift, which is a joy to drive and sips petrol at 60mpg. Only one of my friends here South Wales owns an EV, a Tesla, but he still uses a diesel as well! My neighbour is trading a 520d for an mg4 in July, now that should be interesting feedback.

Peace of change - SLO76
I’ll report on how things go with the unwanted Leaf. I suspect (and hope) it’ll be pain free to own. They’re light on brakes, there’s no exhaust and hardly any moving parts, so repairs and maintenance should be much reduced over a petrol or diesel.
Peace of change - Chris M

Not sure if I'm allowed to post a letter published in the May edition of Car Mechanics magazine. I'm sure a mod will delete it if not.

It's from the owner of one of the last Mk1 Leafs. Battery life isn't the biggest worry in running an older EV. Some of the prices are eye watering and would likely write the car off

EV OWNER TELLS ALL

? CM published two interesting letters in your August 2022 issue regarding living with an EV and the hidden costs of owning an EV. I agree with Nigel Gutteridge that some of the hidden costs to owning an EV are never apparently discussed, but the battery is only one of many hidden costs.

I bought my Nissan LEAF new 9.5 years ago. It has covered 85,000 miles and still has the original main (HV) battery. Battery life was one of the concerns I had in mind when I bought the LEAF. I wanted to factor in battery replacement as a future cost to balance against the savings possible with the reduced running costs, and right from the start it was impossible to find any figure for the battery replacement cost. The dealer network was very evasive. It is still difficult to get a figure from any Nissan dealer. I’m not sure that many Nissan dealers are interested in maintaining an out of warranty EV, and I suspect that the Nissan business model involves steering customers away from keeping an older EV on the road, and towards buying a nice shiny new EV. This is my personal experience.

The apparent lack of manufacturer concern for older EVs kind of defeats the environmental responsibility ethos somewhat.

Back to my car. Being a Japan built model, made in 2013, it is one of the last of the series one cars. The UK built series two cars had substantial changes under the skin when they were introduced in late 2013, and the battery and electronics technology has been developed continually since.

But I am happy to report to Nigel Gutteridge that seven years is a somewhat pessimistic battery life estimate. At nine years I still have around 85% of the original battery capacity remaining, and that still amounts to a useful 70+ miles range from what is now regarded as a very small 24kWh battery. I can achieve 4+ miles per kWh with this car, and, infact, it is this figure that the prospective EV buyer needs to know.

Look at any EV review and you see the projected vehicle range from a full charge, but this is a rather vague and meaningless piece of information, because we all know that manufacturers data is optimistic, and the actual vehicle range is entirely dependent on the skill of the driver. Rarely do you see any data relating to the energy efficiency of the vehicle. Let me explain what that means. The data we really need in an EV review is along the lines of ‘The vehicle range should be 250 miles based on an average energy efficiency of 3.5 miles per kWh’. The vehicle dashboard in an EV will show the energy efficiency in the same way a petrol or diesel car will report the current and average MPG figures.

Nearly forgot why I started typing. Hidden costs... At eight years 11 months, I experienced my first panic attack as an EV owner when I got into my car one morning (I charge at a maximum rate of 10amps overnight) to find that it would not power up and that the dash was alight with an interesting new range of warning lights and alarm sounds. First thought was ‘expensive’! It took 10 weeks of dealing with one inadequate Nissan Dealer (wrong diagnosis) and the poor excuse that passes for Nissan Customer support, which led me to scouring the internet and the aftermarket EV network for diagnostic information and advice. Many thanks to Cleveley EV for helping me to find the cause of the failure, and to Marshall Nissan in Leicester for confirming my diagnosis and making the repair. This led to me performing my own diagnostics, the results contradicting the official Nissan fault diagnosis.

I can report to Nigel that the hidden costs are as follows... If the VCM fails, the replacement unit (all of the HV systems report to the car through this module) will cost £2200 to replace and code up. The part cost is around £600. The rest of the cost is installing it (the VCM sits behind the glovebox) and programming. That’s right, the charge for installing and coding the VCM is £1600!

At the moment I believe I am correct in observing that the independent EV network cannot yet code up a virgin VCM if the old unit cannot export it’s vehicle programming data, and according to Nissan, once coded up, a VCM cannot be re-coded to work with a different car.

A replacement vehicle charging unit (this is the unit that is built into the EV and manages the incoming power connection to charge the HV battery and also manages the maintenance of the 12V battery charge) has a replacement cost of £2800. This unit failed on my car and needed to be replaced. Second-hand units were scarce and offered at stupid money so I decided to buy new and get manufacturer warranty on the part.

Caution! Be aware that if an inexperienced repair agent (and, sadly, that includes some Nissan Dealers) diagnoses a VCM failure, they will also state that there may be other module failures present on the HV side of the car that cannot be diagnosed until the VCM is replaced. In my case the vehicle charging unit had failed in such a way that it also shut down the CAN lines on the HV side, giving the symptoms of a failed VCM. If I had followed the advice of the first Nissan Dealer I turned to for help, I would have ended up spending a total of £5000. That’s a big enough bill to make the car an economic write-off.

There are other major units on an EV that could cost big money to replace, such as the motor drive inverter, the brake master cylinder (a really sophisticated piece of kit on the LEAF, and an expensive item to replace) and any one of the half dozen or so on-board computer modules.

So, returning to Nigel’s initial concern, battery condition and life expectancy is largely dependent on the way the vehicle has been charged during its life, and I would offer two pieces of advice to anyone wanting to buy an older EV.

1) Ask how often the vehicle has been used for long journeys and how often it is ‘fast charged’ at motorway services. Fast charging is known to accelerate battery degradation due to battery heating. I have never fast charged mine and this probably explains the good health of the vehicle battery.

2) Look at the EV battery health indicator. Most EVs have some means of displaying the battery health.

When it comes to the hidden cost of EV ownership, my own concerns are for what happens when the vehicle model reaches 10-years-old and the manufacturer is no longer obliged to provide parts support. If there are no other sources for new replacement EV specific parts, the vehicles will be worth only scrap.

Remember that there are many suppliers for the regular car stuff, such as track rod ends, road springs and brake pads and discs, but for charger units, VCMs and inverter units? Hope this situation improves!

Tim Baker

Peace of change - Adampr

EV OWNER TELLS ALL

Worth remembering, though, that this lead owner hasn't had to replace cambelts, ATF, air filters etc over the last ten years.

When I took my electric Corsa in for a service, all they did was change the pollen filter and pull the codes.

Presumably someone, somewhere has actually calculated the relative running costs of EV and ICE??

Peace of change - bazza

Please report back on the leaf, running costs, range etc. It would probably be my choice if looking for a nearly new EV. As it is, I'm very happy with our recent Swift, which is a joy to drive and sips petrol at 60mpg. Only one of my friends here South Wales owns an EV, a Tesla, but he still uses a diesel as well! My neighbour is trading a 520d for an mg4 in July, now that should be interesting feedback.

Peace of change - SLO76
Hmmm, you do know that if something is, or subsequently goes wrong with the deal or the car, that it will still be your fault, even though you have had little or nothing to do with it? ;-)

True
Peace of change - Engineer Andy
Hmmm, you do know that if something is, or subsequently goes wrong with the deal or the car, that it will still be your fault, even though you have had little or nothing to do with it? ;-)

True

SWMBO? I have visions of Leo McKern... :-)

Peace of change - UCB
Leo McKern aka Rumpole of the Bailey! “She who must be obeyed” ??
Peace of change - UCB
Not meant to be question marks on the end of my post, I had selected a laughing emoji
Peace of change - mcb100
I’d have no qualms about reliability on LEAF.
Yes, they’re previous generation EV, but I’d be surprised to see any noticeable deterioration in range, except for summer/winter variations.
Peace of change - Steveieb

I’m really surprised by this SLO as I thought you had nailed it with the HRV.

Making the decision to own an EV must be made simpler if you live near Cheltenham where Clevely EV s are based.

They are able to fault find down to component level and even break damaged cars to rescue spare parts.

Heard they may be setting up a mobile service .

Peace of change - SLO76
“ I’m really surprised by this SLO as I thought you had nailed it with the HRV.”

So did I, but I’ll run with it since I no longer have to split the cost with her. I’ll pay for mine (buttons) and she can pay for hers. All is well, though it’s not what I’d pick. She’ll just replace it every 3/4yrs.
Peace of change - pd

In fairness to EV repair costs any modern car where a module fails and there isn't a second hand, repair or recoding option available it gets very expensive.

It is easy to spend £1000 replacing a blower motor on a Mk 2 Focus and cars based on it (dash out job and they do fail) for example!

Peace of change - RichardW

A friend had a Peugeot ION (which is a Mitsubishi iEV clone) - it blew the capacitors in the charger, also taking out the fuse. A common failure on these - for which the offical repair is a new inverter unit, at somewhere north of £3k. He managed to fix it with new caps and fuse for not a lot of cash, but that's not open to everyone. He replaced it with a Leaf (2015) - which then ate its gearbox! He uses it to run into Glasgow and back for work, which is within its range, but longer trips are more of a challenge, so he retains a Xantia. A 3 litre V6 one!

Other friends have a slightly later Leaf: to get from Aberdeenshire to Ingleton was something like 8 hours with many charging stops. Madness!!

Peace of change - skidpan

He replaced it with a Leaf (2015) - which then ate its gearbox!

How? EV's don't have "gearboxes".

Peace of change - RT

He replaced it with a Leaf (2015) - which then ate its gearbox!

How? EV's don't have "gearboxes".

They do have a box with gears in - to allow the motor to run at optimum speed - some EVs have a two-speed gearboxto allow higher speeds.

Peace of change - madf

BMW I3s appear to lunch gearboxes over 100k miles.

And some VERY expensive electrical parts £6k +

Peace of change - RichardW

How? EV's don't have "gearboxes".

They've got a fixed single speed reduction box with the diff in - conclusion in this case was that one of the bolts on the final drive ring had come loose and was catching on something inside. Not a common issue - but a replacement used box was £800 or something and he had to DIY it as no one else locally was prepared to take it on.

Peace of change - Engineer Andy

In fairness to EV repair costs any modern car where a module fails and there isn't a second hand, repair or recoding option available it gets very expensive.

It is easy to spend £1000 replacing a blower motor on a Mk 2 Focus and cars based on it (dash out job and they do fail) for example!

The problem of cosnumer items that have more and more complex and varied electronics is that after the main product goes out of production, the cost of producing the spares starts to rise.

This is why it is VERY expensive (in comparison to just junking the whole thing and buying a new [whatever]) to repair modern AV equipment, often uneconomic after they reach about 10 years old.

Even with computers, why by their nature are physically easier to repair (the 'desktop' parts, not laptops, screens, tablets, etc) get very expensive after a couple of generations of new gear comes out.

Some things are still compatible, like the HDD, and to some degree the graphics card, but try finding a replacement motherboard that's compatible with the rest of the components that still work, or a replacement processor - never mind paying 2-3x what it cost when you originally bought the PC.

As I've mentioned previously, unless EV parts are made to a standard format as regards connections and, to a reasonable extent, size/shape (for their rated output) in order to fit a broad range of different makes and models and be backwards compatible for a good 20+ years, I'd bet that car makers will lobby hard to repeal those laws that force them to make all parts for cars for 10 years after it goes out of production.

Either that or just price customers into buying a new car by making the parts prohibitively expensive - which is what happens with computer components and AV parts.

Not helped by complex electronics either needing whole (and thus expensive) modules changed out when one tiny sub-component has failed (it taking more skilled labour costs to diagnose and carefully fix/replace the faulty sub-component than to replace the whole module.

I remember my old Sony CD-radio-cassette mini hifi from the early 90s needing its cassette deck fixed - all that was broken was the electric motor - it cost me £35 to have it diagnosed, another £35 to have the part fitted and I had to drop it off/pick it up myself on the train (cost around £20). All for a part the size of a sugar cube, and that was in the early 2000s, which means today that same job would likely cost best part of £200.

The replacement (not OEM) part was fitted, but just my luck, the other one went a year later and the CD player started to go on the fritz. I junked it and bought a superior Denon replacement for £600 that's luckily mostly still working well today.

Peace of change - Steveieb

My work colleague who was an electronics wizard used to carry out repairs for a local electrical store.

He was asked to fix an up market cassette deck and spent 4hours cleaning out the oil the owner had poured into the working parts to stop the squeezing and causing the belts to slip.

The shop contacted the owner and relayed the cost of the labour who refused to pay so much.

So before handing it back my colleague squirted 3in 1 oil back into the working mechanism!

Before he tackled any fault he called the technical helpline and asked about the common faults as starting fault finding from scratch would work out to be unprofitable .

Peace of change - focussed
I have a high end Tecnics unit hifi. Purchased in the late-nineties it failed about 8 years later, so had it repaired by the local Tecnics dealer who was also the service workshop for Tecnics uk.
Took it with us to France where it failed again.

I had it repaired by a brilliant english electronics engineer here in France who repaired anything, computers, car electronics, ecu's, tv's hifi's guitar amps etc.

The problem was capacitor failure caused by "capacitor plague" endemic in the early 2000's.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor_plague

This type of capacitor has a finite life which can be calculated by a complicated formula.

resources.pcb.cadence.com/blog/2022-the-causes-of-...n

So you could say that everything that uses that type of capacitor is programmed to eventually fail!
Peace of change - Steveieb

When Panasonic started manufacturing in the UK they experienced failures with components that they had not come across in Japan.

It was down to the poor tolerances of European components . So they were forced to sample check every component before installation and select the best 30% and reject the rest.

This may explain the low rate of failure on electronics in Japanese car brands which are actually built in Japan.

Peace of change - RT

When Panasonic started manufacturing in the UK they experienced failures with components that they had not come across in Japan.

It was down to the poor tolerances of European components . So they were forced to sample check every component before installation and select the best 30% and reject the rest.

This may explain the low rate of failure on electronics in Japanese car brands which are actually built in Japan.

Poor tolerances is down to poor specifications, not the source of the components.

Peace of change - Steveieb

Maybe you are right RT .

But Panasonic were able to load Japanese components direct to the boards whereas locally supplied components in the UK had to be sample checked before they were considered within the specification claimed by the manufacturer.

Peace of change - Big John
This type of capacitor has a finite life which can be calculated by a complicated formula. resources.pcb.cadence.com/blog/2022-the-causes-of-...n So you could say that everything that uses that type of capacitor is programmed to eventually fail!

Yup, electrolytic capacitor degradation causes the failure of many a piece of equipment. On slightly more recent models you can usually buy a capacitor repair kit. You always have to be careful with replacements to ensure the voltage tolerance is high enough. I got this wrong ONCE on a valve tv (yes I'm that old!) and the bang and following fluff snowstorm was something else a few hours after repair.

A previous hobby of mine used to be electronics (building / repairing etc) and I've partially resurrected the hobby now I'm retired. The biggest problem I've now found with oldish equipment is not the electronics but the use of plastics in the structure / case that become incredibly brittle / fragile with age. A friend asked for some work on a childhood music centre to fix and add the facility to connect to modern hifi equipment. The electronics were easy peasy - but aaarrrrgh every thing re case was falling apart. I flatly refused to repair the cassette mechanism as the whole thing would have collapsed as it was encased in plastic. Fortunately it was a twin cassette and the second one still worked and the turntable was ok ish.

Edited by Big John on 24/05/2023 at 19:39

Peace of change - SLO76
Well, that’s “Leo” the Leaf on the drive (from Monday) and been driven and looked over. I can’t really find fault, other than a minor scuff on the rear bumper. It’s nice to drive, it’s comfy and quite practical. It’s currently sooking up free electricity via one of our free local charging points. It lasts two days with SWMBO’s commute and has yet to cost me a penny.

Presentation from Cinch was sadly rather poor as they delivered it from their nearest depot by driving it down the road. It was thus covered in a layer of road dirt. But the driver was pleasant and took his time to go over the controls with the gaffer. The price paid was £13,600 for a 2020 69 plate with 31,000 miles up. Substantially less than our local Nissan dealer wanted.

I’m particularly keen on the ‘e pedal’ which essentially allows you to drive using only one pedal. It increases the regenerative braking and will bring the car to a complete halt without touching the brakes. Use it wisely and the range is boosted significantly. It takes a bit of getting used to but I love getting something for nothing.
Peace of change - sammy1

582 cars listed on ebay best I can see is a 71 reg for £15700 with 6k miles from Pendragon so plenty to chose from so haggle hard if you want one.