There are none so blind as those that will not see.
So what about all the coal powered power stations you mentioned at the top of the thread?
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There are none so blind as those that will not see. So what about all the coal powered power stations you mentioned at the top of the thread?
I think his point is that those stations are helping to charge all the EVs ?
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Over the last year renewables and nuclear have generated 50% of electricity - selective use of statistics does not prove a point.
In fact it is to the credit of UK power generation systems that despite very low wind, as far as I know the UK has not been overcome by massive power outages.
How you conclude that running EVs is more polluting than ICE is a conclusion that defies explanation.
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Its only a pity that Gas, the ideal home heating fuel that would last near enough forever if kept for that purpose, is being wasted in huge quantities producing electricity, especially while we sit on hundreds of years of coal, coal = energy independence.
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Its only a pity that Gas, the ideal home heating fuel that would last near enough forever if kept for that purpose, is being wasted in huge quantities producing electricity, especially while we sit on hundreds of years of coal, coal = energy independence.
Domestic gas heating produces about the same NOx as road vehicles - getting the balance between environmental and security is a difficult one.
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We’re projected to have gone from 11GW to 30GW in offshore wind by 2030, with proportional increases in other renewable sources happening over the same time period.
Burning coal is a massive retrograde step for the environment.
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We’re projected to have gone from 11GW to 30GW in offshore wind by 2030, with proportional increases in other renewable sources happening over the same time period. Burning coal is a massive retrograde step for the environment.
Have you noticed that the UK is freezing its nuts off for the last week with another week at least to come. Something has gone seriously wrong with the price of domestic fuel that we have to put up with and people not being able to afford it, freezing in their homes. The Earth has been evolving for billions of years and the UK thinks it ought to try to fix it in 5minuites. Fat chance! If what we have is global warming today than bring it on and lets have a Mediterranean climate here in the UK long term. Returning to the EV theme Switzerland are considering banning them from the roads if they have an energy crisis!
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"If what we have is global warming today than bring it on and lets have a Mediterranean climate here in the UK long term."
And what about sea levels if we get to that point? And what about other parts of the world that will have become uninhabitable?
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"If what we have is global warming today than bring it on and lets have a Mediterranean climate here in the UK long term."
And what about sea levels if we get to that point? And what about other parts of the world that will have become uninhabitable?
Not that long ago the whole of the UK was under the sea. When the major countries in the world start building sea defences to defend their cities might be the time to perhaps start worrying. Whatever, what happens to the planet is way beyond what humans can do about it
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We’re projected to have gone from 11GW to 30GW in offshore wind by 2030, with proportional increases in other renewable sources happening over the same time period. Burning coal is a massive retrograde step for the environment.
Have you noticed that the UK is freezing its nuts off for the last week with another week at least to come. Something has gone seriously wrong with the price of domestic fuel that we have to put up with and people not being able to afford it, freezing in their homes. The Earth has been evolving for billions of years and the UK thinks it ought to try to fix it in 5minuites. Fat chance! If what we have is global warming today than bring it on and lets have a Mediterranean climate here in the UK long term. Returning to the EV theme Switzerland are considering banning them from the roads if they have an energy crisis!
Anyone that thinks climate change is a good thing is a person that does not have a proper grasp on it. It's a serious matter that needs to be dealt with.
[One word substituted with 'person']
Edited by Xileno on 10/12/2022 at 22:03
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We’re projected to have gone from 11GW to 30GW in offshore wind by 2030, with proportional increases in other renewable sources happening over the same time period. Burning coal is a massive retrograde step for the environment.
Have you noticed that the UK is freezing its nuts off for the last week with another week at least to come. Something has gone seriously wrong with the price of domestic fuel that we have to put up with and people not being able to afford it, freezing in their homes. The Earth has been evolving for billions of years and the UK thinks it ought to try to fix it in 5minuites. Fat chance! If what we have is global warming today than bring it on and lets have a Mediterranean climate here in the UK long term. Returning to the EV theme Switzerland are considering banning them from the roads if they have an energy crisis!
Anyone that thinks climate change is a good thing is a fool that does not have a proper grasp on it. It's a serious matter that needs to be dealt with.
Climate change has been going on ever since the earth was born. There will be winners and losers as there are now with storms volcanoes and earthquakes all of which humans can do nothing about.
Edited by Xileno on 10/12/2022 at 22:02
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We’re projected to have gone from 11GW to 30GW in offshore wind by 2030, with proportional increases in other renewable sources happening over the same time period. Burning coal is a massive retrograde step for the environment.
Have you noticed that the UK is freezing its nuts off for the last week with another week at least to come. Something has gone seriously wrong with the price of domestic fuel that we have to put up with and people not being able to afford it, freezing in their homes. The Earth has been evolving for billions of years and the UK thinks it ought to try to fix it in 5minuites. Fat chance! If what we have is global warming today than bring it on and lets have a Mediterranean climate here in the UK long term. Returning to the EV theme Switzerland are considering banning them from the roads if they have an energy crisis!
Anyone that thinks climate change is a good thing is a person that does not have a proper grasp on it. It's a serious matter that needs to be dealt with.
Climate change has been going on ever since the earth was born. There will be winners and losers as there are now with storms volcanoes and earthquakes all of which humans can do nothing about.
Climate change has - man made climate change has not and can be prevented. There is a difference. As it is going now there will be no winners.
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<< Climate change has been going on ever since the earth was born. >>
This blandly unarguable statement has little meaning of value. People who refuse to accept statistical evidence because they don't like to hear the message it conveys are simple deniers, perhaps even conspiracy theorists.
But what has this to do with EVs being a danger to road users ? :-)
Edited by Andrew-T on 11/12/2022 at 22:52
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We’re projected to have gone from 11GW to 30GW in offshore wind by 2030, with proportional increases in other renewable sources happening over the same time period. Burning coal is a massive retrograde step for the environment.
WIndpower today is 3% 0f demand. (see last few weeks)
Coal fired power stations being fired up.
No electricity storage planned.
Therefore windpower investment is a waste of money ..
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All that means is that it's not very windy today. Over the last year, wind power has been 28% of our generation.
Whilst storage is great, it's not essential; we can export excess power to France and (as we do now) buy some back when we're in need.
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All that means is that it's not very windy today. Over the last year, wind power has been 28% of our generation.
Whilst storage is great, it's not essential; we can export excess power to France and (as we do now) buy some back when we're in need.
Wind power is greatest in Spring Summer and Autumn when there is lots of solar.
In winter overall demand rises 30% and wind output roughly halves.
SO a dependence of wind power is counter intuitive.
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That doesn't make sense. Even in summer, wind and solar combined doesn't meet 100% of need. We need to keep introducing renewables until, at the very least, we can meet full demand in the right conditions. Solar won't be enough on its own.
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Solar won't be enough on its own.
We are already starting to see fields - which could grow useful crops - covered with hundreds of solar panels, a change which is even more prevalent in sunnier countries than ours. The UK has been unable to completely feed itself for many years, and this habit seems to be the wrong way to go, even if it may make 'common sense' to some. The best place for solar is on the roof, and there are plenty of roofs which could be used, as ours has been for 11 years now.
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Solar won't be enough on its own.
We are already starting to see fields - which could grow useful crops - covered with hundreds of solar panels, a change which is even more prevalent in sunnier countries than ours. The UK has been unable to completely feed itself for many years, and this habit seems to be the wrong way to go, even if it may make 'common sense' to some. The best place for solar is on the roof, and there are plenty of roofs which could be used, as ours has been for 11 years now.
On a similar theme Sky has reported that framers in the Congo have been kicked off their fields by Total oil so that Total can offset their carbon footprint by planting 40million trees, It is difficult to comprehend just what is going on by governments and big business in this world.
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Massive amounts of farm land are being bought up by housebuilders in the UK to achieve 'nitrate neutrality ' on new housing developments. They are basically taking land out of farming use to stop the rivers getting clogged with algae. Laudible, but perhaps banning nitrates in farming would make more sense?
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I’m nowhere near having done the sums on this, but forget covering farmland with solar. Let’s cover all golf courses instead.
Semi serious comment.
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I’m nowhere near having done the sums on this, but forget covering farmland with solar. Let’s cover all golf courses instead..
Good idea ! :-)
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I’m nowhere near having done the sums on this, but forget covering farmland with solar. Let’s cover all golf courses instead..
Good idea ! :-)
Perhaps covering the roofs of factories / industrial units, schools / colleges, train sheds / stations and warehouses / retail outlets (supermarkets and those in retail parks) first would be a good idea - after all, they have LOADS of useful roof space going begging.
Some people may not like golf, but a golf course is far more environmentally friendly than most land uses these days, and, relatively speaking, they use up little land in the grand scheme.
Solar 'farms' just take up land that either was being used as farmland (given the current shortages, you'd have thought that the 'experts' would realise this) or as acutal properly wild habitats that people can enjoy.
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The best estimate I’ve seen is that golf courses in the UK have the same footprint as the whole of Greater Manchester.
It’s a significant chunk of land.
I made it as a frivolous comment, but we need to be aware of what we’re doing with land.
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The best estimate I’ve seen is that golf courses in the UK have the same footprint as the whole of Greater Manchester. It’s a significant chunk of land. I made it as a frivolous comment, but we need to be aware of what we’re doing with land.
Actually, several golf courses round here are in difficulty, and one has given up altogether after about 25 years - it was farmland before that. I don't think it will revert to that though, nor to a solar farm.
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I’m nowhere near having done the sums on this, but forget covering farmland with solar. Let’s cover all golf courses instead..
Good idea ! :-)
Perhaps covering the roofs of factories / industrial units, schools / colleges, train sheds / stations and warehouses / retail outlets (supermarkets and those in retail parks) first would be a good idea - after all, they have LOADS of useful roof space going begging.
Some people may not like golf, but a golf course is far more environmentally friendly than most land uses these days, and, relatively speaking, they use up little land in the grand scheme.
Solar 'farms' just take up land that either was being used as farmland (given the current shortages, you'd have thought that the 'experts' would realise this) or as acutal properly wild habitats that people can enjoy.
Agreed. I don't know why new housing estates can't incorporate the cost of solar panel installation on a mandatory basis, with subsequent reduced demand on the grid, and reduced bills for the house owners (in time). I suppose that on some houses in the estate it may not be practical due to the direction they are facing.
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I’m nowhere near having done the sums on this, but forget covering farmland with solar. Let’s cover all golf courses instead..
Good idea ! :-)
Perhaps covering the roofs of factories / industrial units, schools / colleges, train sheds / stations and warehouses / retail outlets (supermarkets and those in retail parks) first would be a good idea - after all, they have LOADS of useful roof space going begging.
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Agreed. I'd also think about roofing over supermarket carparks with solar panels. It'd provide shelter for the pedestrians as well as generating power.
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Agreed. I'd also think about roofing over supermarket carparks with solar panels. It'd provide shelter for the pedestrians as well as generating power.
IIRC French supermarkets are experimenting with that approach.
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Agreed. I'd also think about roofing over supermarket carparks with solar panels. It'd provide shelter for the pedestrians as well as generating power.
IIRC French supermarkets are experimenting with that approach.
It has the added benefit (like with the solar roof over Blackfriars Bridge Station in London) of shade in the summer to keep the temperature of the cars down. TBH they could also add solar hot water panels as well, to provide hot water in said buildings.
Some, like swimming pools or those with large washing (people or things) facilities) would benefit enormously and reduce heating (for DHW) bills.
For the same reason, its often why the underground pipe loops for ground source heat pump systems are put under outside car parks, because the black tarmac absorbs so much heat, which is very useful to provide heat energy for heating (even out of summer) and for generating DHW.
Such ideas have been around in my old line of work for decades now, and yet...
Some new homes built (within the last 1-3 years) around the corner from me, and NOT ONE has a solar panel. All have gas-fired combi boilers. One lot does have EV chargers, but only one between two spaces for each property and likely only the 7kW variety. They don't look very vandal-proof either.
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<< ...they could also add solar hot water panels as well, to provide hot water in said buildings. >>
There again, the least energy is available when you most need it (winter). The most rational use for PV electricity is for air-conditioning when it's too hot.
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<< ...they could also add solar hot water panels as well, to provide hot water in said buildings. >>
There again, the least energy is available when you most need it (winter). The most rational use for PV electricity is for air-conditioning when it's too hot.
Similarly, having too much solar hot water generation via such panels creates huge amounts of heat that literally have to be dumped down the drain, or in the domestic / small scale commercial setting, bled off via dump radiators (the former would normally be located in a garage to avoid overheating the home).
Best to have solar hot water at a relatively low lovel unless demdn is high all year around, or can be bled off into other systems, such as pool heating for swimming pools or industrial processes in factories. It's why such systems are useful in (especially secondary) schools, colleges, barracks etc with high hot water usage, e.g. showering.
It might be useful for a supermarket if they have in-house food production facilities such as a bakery and/or cafe / restaurant - hot water for hand washing is reasonable and consistent, though not really high.
The paradoxes of solar and wind energy production is precicely why they are not suitable for a base load application generally for electricity, and thus we only have nuclear, tidal/wave and fossil fuels. Despite some improvements in battery / electricty storage tech, it's still nowhere near the capability and scale (even in another 10 years) to cope with what would be needed for the storage of energy between late September and mid May, especially in winter.
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Small (1-2kw) amounts of PV are (effectively) mandatory on all future housing developments, as are 1:1 EV chargers. Air Source Heat Pumps are now pretty much standard now too. Ground source less so due to capital cost.
The issue with solar hot water is that, in the UK, it's generally not hot enough for use so needs to be boosted. That can be done with a cylinder and immersion heater, but is inefficient. The vast majority of gas boilers will not accept a hot, or warm, feed.
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Wind power is greatest in Spring Summer and Autumn when there is lots of solar.
Wind and solar are complimentary. Plenty of cloud as well as night when wind is going well but zero solar. Right now we're in a short term position where High pressure reduces wind but the forecast has us back in more typical south westerly airflow by the weekend.
Nobody is saying we can rely on wind alone but as part of a mixed generator economy it absolutely has its place.
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Wind power is greatest in Spring Summer and Autumn when there is lots of solar.
In winter overall demand rises 30% and wind output roughly halves.
SO a dependence of wind power is counter intuitive.
Completely wrong.
Energy Trends: UK weather - GOV.UK (www.gov.uk)
Max solar is in summer months.
Max wind is December, January, February, March.
Most green energy generated is from wind.
Edited by Terry W on 13/12/2022 at 01:08
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We’re projected to have gone from 11GW to 30GW in offshore wind by 2030, with proportional increases in other renewable sources happening over the same time period. Burning coal is a massive retrograde step for the environment.
WIndpower today is 3% 0f demand. (see last few weeks)
Coal fired power stations being fired up.
No electricity storage planned.
Therefore windpower investment is a waste of money ..
Therefore invest in storage?
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WIndpower today is 3% 0f demand. (see last few weeks)
Coal fired power stations being fired up.
No electricity storage planned.
Therefore windpower investment is a waste of money ..
Wind now back at 30% and that's before the reversion to normal westerly airflow has extended to the whole country.
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Its only a pity that Gas, the ideal home heating fuel that would last near enough forever if kept for that purpose, is being wasted in huge quantities producing electricity, especially while we sit on hundreds of years of coal, coal = energy independence.
Domestic gas heating produces about the same NOx as road vehicles - getting the balance between environmental and security is a difficult one.
Do you have any stats ? Most of the NO2 from road vehicles is caused by compression-ignition (diesel) - not normally used in domestic heating ?
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we sit on hundreds of years of coal, coal = energy independence.
The coal may be there but my recollection is that the pits were shut because it was not economic to mine using deep shafts compared with the open cast mining in other countries.
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What a gigantic con EV’s are. They are more polluting than ICE cars.
They aren't though - plenty of research shows that even if they are charged with electricity that is not all from wind/solar etc they are still less polluting than ICE cars...time to accept reality and move on.
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