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They mostly make sense as company cars at the moment. Once you factor in the BIK savings, they cost about the same as ICE and you get your fuel for next to nothing. Once the fleets have bought enough for them to be truly mass produced, they might start making sense for private buyers.
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Just had the Mokka-e serviced. First annual service main dealer 90 quid. About 300 quid less than my previous car.
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How long do you think you might still be driving.?...it may well be keeping the car you have is the sensible solution.?
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Does make you wonder what the future of bangernomics is.
I can’t imagine many electric cars making it to 14yrs a old and still having any useful range remaining.
A recent TV programme demonstrated an old Leaf had a max range of 65 miles.
I guess there will be some kind of exchange scheme be then. Let’s hope so.
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65 miles? How many did it have new? Some first gen Leafs had 73 new. So 65 in that context pretty good eh?
youtu.be/C4nS_tSQiVQ
Edited by Ethan Edwards on 27/09/2022 at 10:31
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65 miles? How many did it have new? Some first gen Leafs had 73 new. So 65 in that context pretty good eh?
youtu.be/C4nS_tSQiVQ
Also, by the sound of it, 65 miles would be plenty for the OP.
I have a customer, an old farmer in his late 80's. When we were chatting the other day he doesn't like driving and only continues to because he lives about a mile and a half outside the village. But that is as far as he ever drives, so for him an old EV with a 65 mile range would be massively more than he needs (he has an early VW Tiguan diesel)!.
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Just had the Mokka-e serviced. First annual service main dealer 90 quid. About 300 quid less than my previous car.
That may not be a reasonable comparison, given a 'first' service on an ICE car is mostly just an oil change and inspection. I think for mine it is around £150 - £170. The maximum I pay for the 'really big' service during the 6 year cycle is around £400, but the average is around £275.
Of course, a battery change (mine normally last 'only' 4-5 years) is about £150 rather than several £0000 in an EV.
One other thing to wonder is what skills / capability do the breakdown services have at fixing EV-specific issues at the roadside, or dealing with them via towing to a 'garage' on a Saturday afternoon / Sunday or bank holiday when most main dealerships' maintenance facilities are closed.
Presumably you'd have to source an ICE car as a temporary replacement as I'd suspect that nearly all indie garages (for the forseeable future) will have zero experience with EV-specific issues.
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Sorry it has no oil to change. So that's free!
Evs have two batteries the Traction battery which will never need changing. And a 12v battery that just runs the computer stuff. That will require changing but far less than yours in an ice car as it doesn't work so hard. Kept topped up by the Traction battery.
As a Vauxhall you can get it looked at be any Vauxhall dealer. So no hunting for a brain surgeon/ mechanic is necessary.
It's far easier and quicker to service. Brakes outlast ice cars as most braking is done via the regenerative braking. Typically 50 to 60k per set of pads. So yes it's mostly inspection and a couple of fluid checks. Tyres are 150 a corner.
Breakdown? With less moving parts than ice its going to be rare. But Nissan Leaf has been around for 12 years by now so you'd think the industry would be up to the challenge. As they take over an Indie who won't adapt will find business flagging. Others will take the ball and run with it.
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So yes it's mostly inspection and a couple of fluid checks. Tyres are 150 a corner.
Tyres are an interesting question. I know little about EVs, except [a] the power battery is a pretty heavy item and [b] acceleration can be pretty rapid. So how do the tyres wear compared with an ICE car - assuming the same driving style for both ?
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I reckon to get upwards of 18k from them. Maybe a bit less than my old Vitara S. I don't do boy racer stuff...honest. The e version is 330kg kg heavier that's two big blokes worth. But it's adequately disguised by the engineers imo. But sure its not a sports car. Acceleration yes it's quick, feels quicker than it probably is. Tesla Plaid is 1.90 seconds 0 to 60 the Mokka a tad behind that at 8.7 to 9.2 I would say adequate. It's effortless and instantly available at pretty much any speed. Very pleasant driving. Though I'm more going for max range keeping it smooth no harsh breaking no frantic acceleration anticipation of stops etc. Exactly the stuff I used to do with my Vitara S.
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The e version is 330kg heavier that's two big blokes worth.
Those are pretty big blokes - I'm about 11½ stone = 160 lb = about 73 kg, or less than a quarter of the difference you have quoted !
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Sorry it has no oil to change. So that's free!
Evs have two batteries the Traction battery which will never need changing. And a 12v battery that just runs the computer stuff. That will require changing but far less than yours in an ice car as it doesn't work so hard. Kept topped up by the Traction battery.
As a Vauxhall you can get it looked at be any Vauxhall dealer. So no hunting for a brain surgeon/ mechanic is necessary.
It's far easier and quicker to service. Brakes outlast ice cars as most braking is done via the regenerative braking. Typically 50 to 60k per set of pads. So yes it's mostly inspection and a couple of fluid checks. Tyres are 150 a corner.
Breakdown? With less moving parts than ice its going to be rare. But Nissan Leaf has been around for 12 years by now so you'd think the industry would be up to the challenge. As they take over an Indie who won't adapt will find business flagging. Others will take the ball and run with it.
As Jason from Engineering Explained (YouTube) found out to his great cost, EVs do suffer from problems, whether electrical / IT gremlins, or as he did on a long trip, tyre/alloy wheel failures because of the combo of a very heavy car and big wheels low profile tyres.
Those tyres of your cost £150 each? Ouch! I realise that some EVs are shod on more sensible wheels and tyres - the lower-mid spec 1st gen Hyundai Ioniq EVs are on 195/65 R15 like my Mazda3 (and cost between £50 and £80 a corner for decent summer or A/S tyres), but many EVs appear to come shod on big wheels and low profile tyres, often special tyres to cope with the extra weight, which bumps the price up even more, plus they don't last as long and are far more susceptible to damage.
Whilst its far more on issue in hotter countries (seen issues described Down Under), the Leaf mk1 for example had no active battery cooling and suffered as a result.
As i've said before, mechanical parts often give a reasonable amount of warning that they are on the way out via noise or feel from use, whereas electronics, including electric motors, tend (not always) to suddenly just 'die'.
That could mean an older EV may break down whilst in use, as opposed to an ICE car owner knows something is wrong a day, week or much longer in advance, and has the time to get an inspection/repair booked in when its more convenient before the part(s) fail.
Would you risk NOT getting breakdown cover for your EV? It costs me about £65 - £70pa to cover my nearly 16yo Mazda for roadside/at home, which isn't that much in the grand scheme of things. I wonder how much it would cost for the same for EVs?
One thing to consider, going back to the OP, is that if the elederly person has no reasonable experience of and confidence in driving ICE auto cars, then an EV may be a difficult prospect, including from a safety perspective.
Whilst some will cope fine, other won't and we've all seen articles about elderly drivers of autos not realising they are in reverse instead of a forward gear (or in gear when they need to be in neutral) and they run over someone, etc by mistake.
Worth considering.
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many EVs appear to come shod on big wheels and low profile tyres
That is the case for most modern cars regardless of what powers them.
often special tyres to cope with the extra weight, which bumps the price up even more
Having a higher load rating for the tyre does not necessarily mean a higher price. I know this from buying tyres for various vans over the last 13 years.
they don't last as long
How long the tyres on an EV last will depend on how the car is driven, just as with an ICE car.
and are far more susceptible to damage.
I hope Jason from engineering explained statement is not your only 'proof' of this, because it isn't. It is only proof that a big heavy car (or indeed any car) on ultra low profile tyres is more susceptible to damage. And if you think about the state of our roads, that should be obvious.
Whilst its far more on issue in hotter countries (seen issues described Down Under), the Leaf mk1 for example had no active battery cooling and suffered as a result.
It's not far more an issue in hotter countries, its only an issue in hotter countries.
As i've said before, mechanical parts often give a reasonable amount of warning that they are on the way out via noise or feel from use, whereas electronics, including electric motors, tend (not always) to suddenly just 'die'.
That could mean an older EV may break down whilst in use, as opposed to an ICE car owner knows something is wrong a day, week or much longer in advance, and has the time to get an inspection/repair booked in when its more convenient before the part(s) fail.
Would you risk NOT getting breakdown cover for your EV? It costs me about £65 - £70pa to cover my nearly 16yo Mazda for roadside/at home, which isn't that much in the grand scheme of things. I wonder how much it would cost for the same for EVs?
In 10 years of ownership, Robert Llewellyn's very early Leaf (one of the first in the country) suffered absolutely no breakdowns or failures at all, not even a bulb.
One thing to consider, going back to the OP, is that if the elederly person has no reasonable experience of and confidence in driving ICE auto cars, then an EV may be a difficult prospect, including from a safety perspective.
Whilst some will cope fine, other won't and we've all seen articles about elderly drivers of autos not realising they are in reverse instead of a forward gear (or in gear when they need to be in neutral) and they run over someone, etc by mistake.
The OP's Jazz is an auto
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many EVs appear to come shod on big wheels and low profile tyres
That is the case for most modern cars regardless of what powers them.
The difference is that EVs are significantly heavier than ICE cars, and I suspect going from a 'standard' ICE car to an EV also gets a bump to lower profile tyres than before, even, as you say, many modern cars are that way. AFAIK, a Telsa cannot be shod on 'sensible' tyres, whereas a mid and lower spec BMW or Audi can...just.
often special tyres to cope with the extra weight, which bumps the price up even more
Having a higher load rating for the tyre does not necessarily mean a higher price. I know this from buying tyres for various vans over the last 13 years.
The combo of both factors - wider, bigger, lower profile + higher load rating and likely the speed rating being high means a big bump in price. My car isn't that different in size/load capacity (people/boot) to the Mokka-a, and yet the Mokka's tyres cost (presumably summer tyre prices were quoted) nearly 3x what I would pay for mine. For my car, the difference between the standard and XL tyre is about 5%, but it is a common tyre.
God knows what the cost of a replacement alloy (mine are about £85 - £90 each) are.
they don't last as long
How long the tyres on an EV last will depend on how the car is driven, just as with an ICE car.
True, both again if they are lower profile than the equivalent ICE car, they are more suceptible to damage and will will wear more quickly on average.
and are far more susceptible to damage.
I hope Jason from engineering explained statement is not your only 'proof' of this, because it isn't. It is only proof that a big heavy car (or indeed any car) on ultra low profile tyres is more susceptible to damage. And if you think about the state of our roads, that should be obvious.
Surely the above statelemnet means that the risk is hgiher, as you already stated for a lot of ICE cars. It's just that many EVs appear for some reason to be fitted with such tyres.
Whilst its far more on issue in hotter countries (seen issues described Down Under), the Leaf mk1 for example had no active battery cooling and suffered as a result.
It's not far more an issue in hotter countries, its only an issue in hotter countries.
Then I presume you've checked every mk1 Leaf in the UK over the last 19 years to see if they had any issues in hot spells as we had a month ago? I would also note that many EVs (with some notable exceptions) find themselves at the bottom of the reliability league tables.
As i've said before, mechanical parts often give a reasonable amount of warning that they are on the way out via noise or feel from use, whereas electronics, including electric motors, tend (not always) to suddenly just 'die'.
That could mean an older EV may break down whilst in use, as opposed to an ICE car owner knows something is wrong a day, week or much longer in advance, and has the time to get an inspection/repair booked in when its more convenient before the part(s) fail.
Would you risk NOT getting breakdown cover for your EV? It costs me about £65 - £70pa to cover my nearly 16yo Mazda for roadside/at home, which isn't that much in the grand scheme of things. I wonder how much it would cost for the same for EVs?
In 10 years of ownership, Robert Llewellyn's very early Leaf (one of the first in the country) suffered absolutely no breakdowns or failures at all, not even a bulb.
I thought you said above that one case doesn't make it the same for everyone? You can't really have it both ways. Besides, other than my car's last battery, which failed at 5yo (the car was 14.5 years old at the time and the battery was due to be replaced anyway) on startup after the 2020 lockdowns ended, and that engine warning light the other day that hasn't reappeared, my ICE car hasn't had any failures in its 16+ year life and no MOT failures.
Wear and tear replacements, yes. But then my car can dirve to the other end of the country on one tank of fuel (same mpg as new) and not have to stop more than a couple of times for loo/food breaks. Presumably ol' Kryten's was an early model, which at best (when new) only gave a max range of 109 miles. By the Good & Bad section, some older models have range/battery issues, which seem to be very expensive to fix.
One thing to consider, going back to the OP, is that if the elederly person has no reasonable experience of and confidence in driving ICE auto cars, then an EV may be a difficult prospect, including from a safety perspective.
Whilst some will cope fine, other won't and we've all seen articles about elderly drivers of autos not realising they are in reverse instead of a forward gear (or in gear when they need to be in neutral) and they run over someone, etc by mistake.
The OP's Jazz is an auto
Fair enough, but most of the type of accidents I spoke of involve elderly drivers. That an EV will have significantly more power/torque at low speed might give them pause for thought.
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Some information which I would regard as reasonably reliable vs rumour, hearsay and unevidenced assumption - see the Which magazine figures.
Electric cars are less reliable than petrol and diesel, says Which? | This is Money
Conclusion - EV does have more problems than conventional - but not dissimilar to diesel.
It is worth remembering that conventional ICE has had over a century of development to achieve current reliability levels - by comparison hybrid and EV are in their infancy.
I would expect that mature ICE is unlikely to improve much, but EV has potential.
Edited by Terry W on 27/09/2022 at 22:03
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Some information which I would regard as reasonably reliable vs rumour, hearsay and unevidenced assumption - see the Which magazine figures.
Electric cars are less reliable than petrol and diesel, says Which? | This is Money
Conclusion - EV does have more problems than conventional - but not dissimilar to diesel.
It is worth remembering that conventional ICE has had over a century of development to achieve current reliability levels - by comparison hybrid and EV are in their infancy.
I would expect that mature ICE is unlikely to improve much, but EV has potential.
Perhaps, although IMHO the recent reduction in reliability of ICE - not including of poorly-designed (e.g. [in my view] the JLRs) DPF-equipped diesels - is most likely due to the huge increase in the amount of complex electronics and sensors that come with the addition of newer safety features.
I'd suspect that if petrol-engined cars were produced without those from the last 5-10 years, they would be almost bomb-proof in terms of reliability and longevity.
As with all new tech, EVs should get better as the tech matures, especially with far more of the mainstream car manufacturers entering the market in a big way.
My concern is whether they will deliberately build-in obsolescence into their products, as manufacturers of a lot of modern electronics do, whether by designing in time-to-failure to be (say) at the 8-10 year mark, or via similar methods mobile phone/tablet manufacturers use, making them unusable via slowing down or programs that are 'incompatable' (via software 'upgrades'). My 11yo desktop PC on Win7 still runs YouTube via web browsers fine, yet my 8yo tablet (which worked fine on that score until last year) now 'cannot' run the YT app.
One of the handy things about ICE cars older than around 15yo I suppose - updates to ECU software are rare to say the least.
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My 11yo desktop PC on Win7
Presume you are aware that support and security updates ended for Windows 7 on 2020. That leaves you very vulnerable.
My 10 year old laptop was on Windows 10 and because of the "old" hardware I was unable to update to windows 11. Worse still its stuck on Windows 10 21H1 and support and security updates end for that version in December this year.
But a simple solution was to forget Windows and install a Linux distribution. After testing several Linux Mint 21 Mate edition worked perfectly out of the box. All the programmes I use with the exception of my family history one were in the app repository, installed an alternative which does the job well enough (but would like the one I use in Windows - familiarity I guess). Linux Mint is free and version 21 is supported until April 2027. A new version comes out every 2 years, it your choice to update or not.
In Windows 10 about 25% of the 8gb of ram was being used at idle with the processor at about 10%. In Linux Mint it uses about 6% of the memory and about 1% of the processor at idle. You rarely hear the cooling fan, in Windows it was very active.
Been using it 2 months now and not a single glitch, do I miss Windows 10, not at all (except for the family history software but will get used to the alternative eventually).
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I thought of buying a used BMW I3.
Did my research
There are articles on Utube from I3 dealer showing renovation costs on 4 year old I3 of £3500..
Some are design faults - filler caps don't open on petrol Range Extender models.
Some are things like torn door sealing rubbers.Some are failed LEDs in the dash controls and failed indicator ticking mechanism to signal turns.
Parts are NOT cheap and fitting of some requires lots of dismantling
Decided not to bother.
SImilar stories of failed engine mounts (major job) etc.
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My 11yo desktop PC on Win7
Presume you are aware that support and security updates ended for Windows 7 on 2020. That leaves you very vulnerable.
It depends. I run a decent Internet Security package (including firewall) and am very careful about what sites I visit or choose to give personal info to. Touch wood, I've never had a virus or hacking issue on this PC.
My 10 year old laptop was on Windows 10 and because of the "old" hardware I was unable to update to windows 11. Worse still its stuck on Windows 10 21H1 and support and security updates end for that version in December this year.
Similar to mine - the MB's chipset was not compatible with Win10, though I 'could' upgrade it via a securitous route to Win 8.1 (but using the Win7 interface rather than 8's hated Metro [which works fine on my middle smartphone]), but not worth it now that its updates end next Jan.
But a simple solution was to forget Windows and install a Linux distribution. After testing several Linux Mint 21 Mate edition worked perfectly out of the box. All the programmes I use with the exception of my family history one were in the app repository, installed an alternative which does the job well enough (but would like the one I use in Windows - familiarity I guess). Linux Mint is free and version 21 is supported until April 2027. A new version comes out every 2 years, it your choice to update or not.
That is a route I am thinking of going, given the computer itself seems to be powerful enough to cope with my everyday needs. Just haven't got around to it yet.
In Windows 10 about 25% of the 8gb of ram was being used at idle with the processor at about 10%. In Linux Mint it uses about 6% of the memory and about 1% of the processor at idle. You rarely hear the cooling fan, in Windows it was very active.
Seems for every new Windows version over the last 10 years the min spec for it just doing nothing has gone up and up. Hopefully Linux will keep mine going for long enough until I can afford a brand new machine.
Been using it 2 months now and not a single glitch, do I miss Windows 10, not at all (except for the family history software but will get used to the alternative eventually).
Good to hear. A shame that cars don't have this sort of generic software onboard, though I would be surprised if it did, given they use other 'mainstream' software or proprietary stuff in order to fit in with their planned obselescence targets to sell more stuff.
Technically, EVs should be ripe for the likes of Linux and general upgraded - software or hardware re;lated, even boydshell, but again that would like not make the manufacturers much money in the general market.
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Touch wood, I've never had a virus or hacking issue on this PC.
I have had 3. the first was a "worm" that rebooted the laptop after 5 minutes use. My AV (Norton) did not detect it and could not remove it but Symantec did. Rpelced Norton with Symantec at renewal
Cannot remember much about the 2nd but again my AV (Symantec) could not detect or sort it, Wifes IT people sorted it using Sophos. Could not buy Sophos for a "personal" user so bought McAfee.
3rd was a McAfee "virus" that assumed all e-mails were spam and deleted them whilst downloading, wondered why i had not been receiving e-mails for several weeks. Easy solution, tell McAfee in settings to allow user to decide if e-mail is spam. There was much annoyance on the McAfee forum bt McAfee never apologised. I left McAfee when my subscription ended and went to Panda free then Avast free (no problems with either) and since Windows 10 I have used Microsofts own security (again no issues).
On Linux I am using the supplied Firewall called UFW (Uncomlicated Firewall) with the Gui front end (GUFW), nice and simple. I have the Clam scanner which I intend to use every month.
Seems for every new Windows version over the last 10 years the min spec for it just doing nothing has gone up and up.
My Dell laptop came with XP in 2008 which I upgraded to Windows 7 (£30 for the disc and licence and then Windows 10 (free upgrade). But the spec of that machine is just too old to cope with Widows with only 2 gb ram (there is a spare slot but SIMMs for the laptop are no longer available anywhere. Tried running Linux on it but anything with a kernel newer than 5.4 had issues. The distribution that worked best was Bodhi 6.0 but any new version of that (7 is due soon) will be on kernel 5.15 at least thus probably won't work. Bodhi 6.0 is supported until 2025 but after that I would be stuffed. Gave up and have kept it on one side for accessing the Caterham ECU and mapping software (its very old and needs XP and serial ports).
Pretty pleased with 14 years from the Dell, the battery gave out after about 6 years but other than that nothing.
Edited by skidpan on 30/09/2022 at 16:40
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