“ My 190E was the best built Mercedes I ve owned in 25 years . Each one since has got poorer.”
The 190 was a real quality product, I remember my dad looking at a new 190E 2.0 Auto in 1991 but it was just too much money. He did buy its replacement though a few years later which was much cheaper via readily available discounts you couldn’t get on the 190, the C180 Elegance auto which although well screwed together it rusted badly from 7/8yrs on. I looked at a used second gen C class myself but the interior quality was garbage by comparison, certainly no better than an equivalent Ford or Vauxhall. Mercedes quality is a thing of the past.
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I must have got lucky twice in row then. My 2011 E class proved faultless over 200,000 hard miles and my current 2016 one has been equally robust over its 160,000 miles to date.
In fact the only car I’ve had any bother with in the past 39 years was an Espace which was woeful.
The rest have just done what they were supposed to do.
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I agree about the Espace Ally.
Worse car I ever owned. Brilliant concept let down by atrocious electrics.
Once called the recovery three times en route to Exeter.
But galvanised chassis and plastic panels made it theoretically a car for life.
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I bet, on average, a W212 gets to 160k or more with less issues than a W124.
Although a lot of those old Mercs could do the miles they had a habit of getting their like the old broom with 3 new heads and 2 new handles.
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I am surprised there is not a more robust argument in support of Toyota. We must have had half a dozen or so in recent years, with a 65 Avensis petrol auto estate and 66 Yaris currently on the drive. Of all of those I have had two warranty claims. A failed injector on a RAV4 2.2 diesel and a replaced plastic disc, cost 95p, on a Yaris gear lever knob. The Yaris is now 12 years old and our daughters daily driver. Total repairs, other than routine maintenance and replacements, on all of these cars, maybe £1000.
However one satisfied customer is hardly evidence, but Toyota manufacturing systems are world leading and Lexota consistently top the reliability charts. The recent introduction of the 10yr/100k mile warranty is a significant value add for the private purchaser. Service costs have increased, but nowhere near the equivalent of an extended warranty.
Critical though is the quality of the dealer, I have been very pleased with the service of my local dealer. We bought the latest Yaris secondhand from a dealer, part of a large group, situated in a large, and much derided town, midway up and adjacent to the M3. Shocking service from them, if their brains were on fire I wouldn’t spit in their ear. The car is fine.
Toyota cars hardly set the pulse racing with excitement but taken in the round are a sound long term proposition. But it is not just manufacturing quality but also warranty and dealer service that completes the car using experience.
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I am surprised there is not a more robust argument in support of Toyota.
That suggests you haven't got the jist of the the thread then. It isn't about who makes the best quality or most reliable cars. It is about manufacturers who have allowed standards to fall, who's cars used to be high quality, then became low, or lower quality.
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I am surprised there is not a more robust argument in support of Toyota.
That suggests you haven't got the jist of the the thread then. It isn't about who makes the best quality or most reliable cars. It is about manufacturers who have allowed standards to fall, who's cars used to be high quality, then became low, or lower quality.
Yup, and aside from the occasional blip (MMT Auto, 2.2 Dcat diesel) Toyota have never sacrificed quality. I was happily recommending Corolla’s and Carina’s to buyers in the 90’s and I’m still recommending their descendants today. I’ve owned several and sold many and have yet (touch wood) to have anything more than wear and tear issues with any. Old Terrance the Toyota (my Avensis) feels and looks as fresh as a three year old car, there really is no real deterioration unlike most rivals which by 12yrs old and 100,000 miles would typically be feeling a bit loose and aged.
Edited by SLO76 on 06/02/2022 at 08:00
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I am surprised there is not a more robust argument in support of Toyota................
..........Critical though is the quality of the dealer,
Won't get any support for Toyota from me. I've only bought the one (pre-reg 19 plate Yaris) owned it for 8 months (10,000 miles), had to get shot of it. It was a terrible car (engine loses power on pulling away causing kangaroo starts (dreaded having to stop at junctions), headlights you just couldn't see anything with.
I rate the following cars, ive owned, well ahead of it:
3 Ford's, 2 Renault's, 2 VAG, 2 Nissan
Unfortunately, where I stay most of the franchises are owned by 2 or 3 very large chains, so you can be assured of appalling service no matter which marque you go for.
A brand only gets one chance to make a good first impression. Having wasted money on a Toyota, I wouldn't buy another.
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“ Won't get any support for Toyota from me. I've only bought the one (pre-reg 19 plate Yaris) owned it for 8 months (10,000 miles), had to get shot of it. It was a terrible car (engine loses power on pulling away causing kangaroo starts (dreaded having to stop at junctions), headlights you just couldn't see anything with.”
Very unusual to hear a complaint against a Yaris. I’ve never had a minutes bother with any I’ve sold and most were older examples. Several friends and colleagues have them (there’s a large local dealer) and they never say a bad word about them, in fact they are very loyal to the brand with replacement just another Toyota.
I’d say that they aren’t the nicest of things to drive, certainly a Fiesta is much more enjoyable than a Yaris (I’ve yet to try the new one) but drive a typical 7/8yr old example of both back to back and you’ll find the Toyota will generally feel much tighter and newer. The more complex suspension setup in the Ford and many rivals tends to deteriorate as it ages more rapidly with regular component replacement required to keep it knock and rattle free.
Did you ever have the cars problem diagnosed? You say it lost power pulling away causing kangarooing effect, what caused this? It’s not something I’ve ever encountered but I am aware the 1.4 diesels can suffer problems as they age, mostly relating to the limited DPF capacity. I found them pretty pointless things, they add complexity and aren’t much more economical than the excellent and utterly bombproof 1.33 petrol.
Edited by SLO76 on 06/02/2022 at 10:44
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Very unusual to hear a complaint against a Yaris. I’ve never had a minutes bother with any I’ve sold and most were older examples. Several friends and colleagues have them (there’s a large local dealer) and they never say a bad word about them, in fact they are very loyal to the brand with replacement just another Toyota. I’d say that they aren’t the nicest of things to drive, certainly a Fiesta is much more enjoyable than a Yaris (I’ve yet to try the new one) but drive a typical 7/8yr old example of both back to back and you’ll find the Toyota will generally feel much tighter and newer. The more complex suspension setup in the Ford and many rivals tends to deteriorate as it ages more rapidly with regular component replacement required to keep it knock and rattle free.
SLO, you had a bad experience with a used Volvo and have said on here that you wouldn't buy another Volvo. That is my position with Toyota. The brand reputation means nothing, if the car they sell me is a duffer.
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“ SLO, you had a bad experience with a used Volvo and have said on here that you wouldn't buy another Volvo. That is my position with Toyota. The brand reputation means nothing, if the car they sell me is a duffer.”
Absolutely, and even the best of manufacturers can build the occasional duffer. I’m just curious as to what was causing the kangarooing effect and loss of power. I always take interest in cars faults reported by others. My Volvo's issues are fairly widespread according to forums which I should really have visited before buying. The bulk of my experience with Volvo’s related to older and much simpler examples from the past and my thoughts on the brand were based on the image the built up when they made good cars. My XC60 when fully scrutinised on the driveway was not a well built car rather than just a bad example.
I know of a good example of an otherwise reliable car that turned out to be the opposite. I sourced a very tidy 11 plate Suzuki Swift 1.3 GL for a colleague a while back with 59,000 miles, full history and known longterm previous ownership. Everything that could fail on this wee car has apparently done so according to him, it has been a proper pig. I do suspect the garage he’s using are taking him for a ride however. They fitted a new clutch a few months back and are telling him the recent loss of drive is now a gearbox failure, I suspect they’ve made an a*** of fitting said clutch or it was substandard. Even the most reliable brands can catch you out. I shudder every time i see him now but at least the wee car was very cheap.
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I bought a run-out Civic estate car (Aerodeck to give it it's name) late 2000, as a go to work car, for under £11K new- about £5K off new price. Ran almost perfectly in that time - only real expense was exhausts - it ate rear boxes every 18mth/2 years - and they were Unipart who made the original exhausts for Honda.
I ran it for almost 7 years and 93K - I looked at the reg a few years back and the last MoT was some 150K and almost perfect pass record - fails were minor bushes, worn uneven tyres etc. It then disappeared 2015
Yesterday in a carpark there was an even older Civic estate, same colour but even older, roughly 23/24 years old. Owner jumped in fired first time and of they went. It was on the tatty side but first time start!
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“ only real expense was exhausts - it ate rear boxes every 18mth/2 years”
This is a thing I used to notice on Honda’s, they did seem to eat exhausts, often you’d hear a wee blow on any presented as a part ex. I can’t say I’ve noticed it as much on later examples so the supplier must’ve changed or upped their game.
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Won't get any support for Toyota from me.
That's a shame but I totally get your view.
I've bought only Toyotas' for many years now..including 4 Yaris models..and have had utterly reliable service from all of them..so I'm an out and out fan as you might expect.
It's certainly not impossible to get a rogue from any manufacturer of course but can quite understand that if you do then it influences your opinion negatively for ever.!
I would be no different.!
Edited by nellyjak on 06/02/2022 at 11:17
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“ It's certainly not impossible to get a rogue from any manufacturer of course but can quite understand that if you do then it influences your opinion negatively for ever.!”
My dad had a bad Ford in the 1960’s and never got past the experience. Even when looking at them in the 80’s and 90’s he just couldn’t take in that they weren’t the same vehicle much to my dismay as he looked at some pretty nice examples.
1989 new Ford Orion 1600E and Sapphire 2000E and a used Scorpio 2.9 V6, he bought a Volvo 240 GLT instead.
1993 new Ford Mondeo 2.0 Ghia - I tried to convince him the Mondeo was the best car he could buy at the time but he went for a Civic 1.6 VTi instead which he never really gelled with. It was low slung, plasticky and firm riding. I liked it as a teenager but he wasn’t that sort of driver. The Mondeo 1.8 LX would’ve suited him better for less money.
I say that I won’t have another Volvo, I probably shouldn’t be so blunt but I don’t see myself doing so with the current highly complex and costly to repair range. Simplicity is gone and quality is lower than past examples, much as with most prestige brands. But that could change as they go electric and hybrid.
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My son runs a 2008 Honda Civic 1.8 and still loves it but although very reliable he now needs a bigger car for family and a v large dog. He despairs of finding someing reliable and affordable in modern cars. His current short list is estate versions of VW Passat ( not recommended) Ford Mondeo maybe VX Isignia ( Not sure?) Toyota Avensis if he can find one, SKoda Octavia or SUperb. A big gamble whichever he gets. Cars are too complex now and expensive to keep running after about 3-4 years old. Meanwhile the yanks keep cars going with 10 yrs + and 200K miles plus.
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Won't get any support for Toyota from me.
That's a shame but I totally get your view.
I've bought only Toyotas' for many years now..including 4 Yaris models..and have had utterly reliable service from all of them..so I'm an out and out fan as you might expect.
It's certainly not impossible to get a rogue from any manufacturer of course but can quite understand that if you do then it influences your opinion negatively for ever.!
I would be no different.!
What will be a guide to how bias and the dealership experience affects how a car is viewed - reliability and robustness-wise is the latest Yaris hybrid, because Mazda, who now have a partnership with Toyota on hybrids are now going to sell that car rebadged as a Mazda2 hybrid - but still selling (for now at any rate) their 'ordinary' Mazda2 (Mazda-designed) alongside.
The interior looks nearly identical too. What's the betting that the 'Mazda' will prove less favoutable in the eyes of owners, due to their lower reputation in comparison to Toyota's, especially as regards to dealers.
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We have 4 Japanese cars in our family:
Two Yaris : 2003,2012
One Jazz 2012
One Civic 2011
All very reliable. Original exhausts , clutches etc..
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What will be a guide to how bias and the dealership experience affects how a car is viewed - reliability and robustness-wise is the latest Yaris hybrid, because Mazda, who now have a partnership with Toyota on hybrids are now going to sell that car rebadged as a Mazda2 hybrid - but still selling (for now at any rate) their 'ordinary' Mazda2 (Mazda-designed) alongside.
The interior looks nearly identical too. What's the betting that the 'Mazda' will prove less favoutable in the eyes of owners, due to their lower reputation in comparison to Toyota's, especially as regards to dealers.
Doesn't really matter how the sales of Mazda's Yaris compares to Toyota's Yaris, what matters is how big a percentage of total Mazda car sales they account for. It is a very easy way for Mazda to reduce their total fleet emissions, while (in theory) also increasing total sales.
But for what it is worth, I don't see the average small car buyer caring too much if the badge says Mazda or Toyota. The kind of people interested enough to differentiate between the brands will surely know that Mazda (with one or two exceptions) make reliable cars, like Toyota. I see prices, spec, and dealership location having a bigger impact on the decision making process than the badge. When the time comes to replace our Suzuki Ignis, either Yaris, or Yaris clone could be on the cards, and it will come down solely to which deal is better.
Interestingly, both brands are under the same (Arnold Clark) roof in Aberdeen!.
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"I am surprised there is not a more robust argument in support of Toyota.
That suggests you haven't got the jist of the the thread then."
Thank you BBD for your comment on my previous post. I was responding to a couple of other posts higher up the thread -
"All of them. I cant think of any mainstream manufacturers that make a car that lasts well past its warranty period. "
and to a lesser extent "Now almost all automakers have experienced such changes. Worse quality, but more restylings and new models."
It seems perfectly reasonable for me to comment in the way I did concerning the quality of a particular manufacturers product, and to add further about warranty and service both of which support not just the quality of the vehicle but, taking it one step further, the experience of ownership. I appreciate a hassle free, value for money motoring experience in addition to factors such as economy, reliability and safety.
I wont recount the negative stories concerning Rover (SD1), Alfa (3l 164), Jaguar (XJ6), Mercedes (W124) and various other cars I have owned or used as company vehicles. All of which has been countered by my experience with Toyota. I quite understand that others may not share this view having had different experiences.
I don't accept your rebuke, if that is what it is, as a forum is a place for discussion and that is what I and others have been doing. i am sorry you didn't appreciate that from my post. I am very comfortable that I have read, understood and responded to the posts above. And now I am responding to yours.
By the way it is "gist" and not "jist".
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<< I don't see the average small car buyer caring too much if the badge says Mazda or Toyota. >>
You may well be right about these two, BBD, but there is certainly an amount of badge snobbery out there, even among people who know which models share platforms and engines etc. My daughter was quite happy driving a Golf Plus, but you (I) would never persuade her to drive any Skoda - or probably Seat either.
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I've had 4 new Toyota Avensis's. At least 70k on each. No repairs other than tyres and bulbs. Even brake pads and discs lasted 70k before I sold the cars. Before those I had rubbish Vauxhalls with crap build quality and failing parts like gaskets, door locks, air con and electronics. If Toyota/Lexus can make cars that don't break why don't other car makers use Toyotas's methods by reverse engineering their designs?
Toyota manufactured tanks for the Japanese military during WW2. They had to ensure their products could endure the battle fiield with reliability so they invented the 'supplier association' model which forced their supplier chain to come together and identify improvements to their own manufacturing and logistics processes which could support Toyota's products.
Toyota produced the Avensis, Auris and Corolla in Derby and its engines in Wales. British skills making the world's most reliable cars, guaranteed for 5 years unlike Ford, Vauxhall, BMW, Audi, Volkswagen, Mercedes, Fiat, Peugeot, Citroen, JLR, Bentley and Ferarri etc etc etc who clearlry don't have confidence in their vehicles beyond their 3 year warranties. Nissan (formerly Datsun) and Mitsubishi used to make very reliable cars before they 'merged' with Renault and then everything went south. My brother has had horrendous issues with his Nissan Juke.
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<< I don't see the average small car buyer caring too much if the badge says Mazda or Toyota. >>
You may well be right about these two, BBD, but there is certainly an amount of badge snobbery out there, even among people who know which models share platforms and engines etc. My daughter was quite happy driving a Golf Plus, but you (I) would never persuade her to drive any Skoda - or probably Seat either.
Especially when aside from the differences in styling they are the same car underneath, and often quite a bit cheaper to buy and maintain. The only difference would be how each local dealership treats their customers.
My point generally was that some long-time buyers of a particular make, e.g. Honda or Toyota, tend to expect high engineering quality and reliability, perhaps a bit less so with Mazda, but more on the driving dynamics and styling front.
I remember the Mazda 121 from the late 90s, which was just a rebadged Ford Fiesta. Very few of the former sold compared to the latter. Nice little cars though (my dad owned a 1.25 LX), excellent at handling (even on 155/70 R13 tyres) and more than nippy enough.
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