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All - EVs - sammy1

With COP26 going on the Daily Mail has put together a survey of all the car manufacturers outlining their future commitments to achieving Zero emissions and their current EV models

It will not copy so you have to go looking for it on todays web page.

Teslas new Roadster due in 2023 has a range of 600miles and 0-60 in less than 2secs. so it says. Speeds like this would I suggest prepare people for space travel. On a serious note I cannot see have any government could condone allowing such cars on public roads its like having a F1 car. Maybe all these superfast EVs should be governed before it is too late especially as they are bound to need charging more often and the electric has to be generated somewhere.

All - EVs - Bolt

With COP26 going on the Daily Mail has put together a survey of all the car manufacturers outlining their future commitments to achieving Zero emissions and their current EV models

It will not copy so you have to go looking for it on todays web page.

Teslas new Roadster due in 2023 has a range of 600miles and 0-60 in less than 2secs. so it says. Speeds like this would I suggest prepare people for space travel. On a serious note I cannot see have any government could condone allowing such cars on public roads its like having a F1 car. Maybe all these superfast EVs should be governed before it is too late especially as they are bound to need charging more often and the electric has to be generated somewhere.

I would rather have a faster accelerating car with restricted top end than a slow starter with 150mph top end

it will depend on several things, as far as needing more often charging by faster accelerating motors, as some like Tesla are efficient so may not need charging as often, what with the efficient motor they use and improving as is battery tech

But I do think some motors will be using Hydrogen for powering the motors, not all will imo be mains powered, though Hybrid will carry on for a while into the 2030s with possibly engines Hydrogen powered, which is likely I think!

All - EVs - misar

I would rather have a faster accelerating car with restricted top end than a slow starter with 150mph top end.

For most UK drivers the maximum speed of their car, with or without a limiter, is largely irrelevant. Even if they want to risk the penalties of getting caught at 70+xxx mph the opportunities to do it on our crowded roads are few and far between.

Not sure what counts as "slow starters" but for today's cars its going to be 0-60 well above 10 sec. I am inclined to agree that having common or garden EVs with 2 sec 0-60 times would be a far greater hazard.

All - EVs - movilogo
  • I don't care about range (as long as over 300 miles)
  • I don't care about top speed.
  • I do care about charging time. I am too impatient to wait over 10 minutes to refill (recharge) the car.
  • I do care about price.

Conclusion: EV is not for me

Edited by movilogo on 02/11/2021 at 22:22

All - EVs - L4Leather

As long as you have somewhere to plug in and you do not do an exceptionally high mileage you will very rarely, if ever, have to to spend any time at all refilling or recharging.

When you look at overall cost of ownership EV's mostly do make financial sense unless you're on a banger budget..

Conclusion: EV may well be for you

All - EVs - Bolt

Not sure what counts as "slow starters" but for today's cars its going to be 0-60 well above 10 sec. I am inclined to agree that having common or garden EVs with 2 sec 0-60 times would be a far greater hazard.

poor acceleration 0-60 in around 14 seconds + is my idea of slow starter,

as for EVs, 2 second acceleration 0-60 would be perfectly safe, apart from neck breaking- I suspect, as most capable of that speed that quick would have accident prevention probably better than they have now

even though I would not be buying an EV in the near future I suspect others will, and will want range as well as acceleration, and as top speed is irrelevant it wont matter as long as you get from A-B asap. but then no different to now

All - EVs - focussed

"But I do think some motors will be using Hydrogen for powering the motors, not all will imo be mains powered, though Hybrid will carry on for a while into the 2030s with possibly engines Hydrogen powered, which is likely I think!"

Hydrogen fuel cell EV's are very inefficient - only about 38% of the electricity required at the start of the hydrogen process gets to the electric motor that powers the wheels of the car.

Let’s take 100 watts of electricity produced by a renewable source such as a wind turbine. To power an FCEV, that energy has to be converted into hydrogen, possibly by passing it through water (the electrolysis process). This is around 75% energy-efficient, so around one-quarter of the electricity is automatically lost.

The hydrogen produced has to be compressed, chilled and transported to the hydrogen station, a process that is around 90% efficient. Once inside the vehicle, the hydrogen needs converted into electricity, which is 60% efficient. Finally the electricity used in the motor to move the vehicle is is around 95% efficient. Put together, only 38% of the original electricity – 38 watts out of 100 – are used.

theconversation.com/hydrogen-cars-wont-overtake-el...9

All - EVs - Bolt

"But I do think some motors will be using Hydrogen for powering the motors, not all will imo be mains powered, though Hybrid will carry on for a while into the 2030s with possibly engines Hydrogen powered, which is likely I think!"

Hydrogen fuel cell EV's are very inefficient - only about 38% of the electricity required at the start of the hydrogen process gets to the electric motor that powers the wheels of the car.

Let’s take 100 watts of electricity produced by a renewable source such as a wind turbine. To power an FCEV, that energy has to be converted into hydrogen, possibly by passing it through water (the electrolysis process). This is around 75% energy-efficient, so around one-quarter of the electricity is automatically lost.

The hydrogen produced has to be compressed, chilled and transported to the hydrogen station, a process that is around 90% efficient. Once inside the vehicle, the hydrogen needs converted into electricity, which is 60% efficient. Finally the electricity used in the motor to move the vehicle is is around 95% efficient. Put together, only 38% of the original electricity – 38 watts out of 100 – are used.

theconversation.com/hydrogen-cars-wont-overtake-el...9

We will wait and see but imo it will happen as green hydrogen is being used in some places which can be seen on you tube videos, even Toyota have a running hydrogen engine-not fuel cell though they have that as well, so its not impossible as do JCB regardless of how its used it works

All - EVs - mcb100
I do quite a lot of miles in an EV with a 0-60 time of 4.5 seconds, and, I’ll be honest, the novelty of that type of performance doesn’t wear off.
Power output is 300Kw (402hp), so even though the standing start is the headline figure, the acceleration continues all the way to its (restricted) top speed of 127mph. In real life, it’ll go as quickly or slowly as the driver demands - creep can be switched on and off to aid manoeuvring, and it’s possible to drive at barely perceptible speeds on the pedal. It’s not at all scary to drive unless you want to use the bottom quarter of the accelerator pedal travel.
There is absolutely no need to wait for a gearbox to find the correct gear, turbo to spin up, variable valve timing to get itself organised. It just goes.
Overtakes become quicker and safer, and it’s easier to get out of junctions and on to roundabouts, simply because the power delivery is instantaneous.
If you haven’t driven one, go do it. Everything else then feels a little old-fashioned.
All - EVs - badbusdriver

Not that long ago I watched a video clip on YouTube, it was called, Slowest drag race ever (or something similar). It featured the Citroen Ami, Renault Twizy, G-Wiz, and something called the Micro Electric (ME).

As well as describing all four and giving brief driving impressions,they did a 400m drag race. The Twizy had the highest top speed, but the ME had far and away the best initial acceleration, absolutely rocketing off the line!. Had the track been another 50m or so, the Twizy would have won as it was reeling in the ME. But the point is, despite only having 10bhp, the instant torque of the electric motor means that it would beat most normal cars away from the traffic lights. The Ami got off the line reasonably quickly, but of course it soon ran up against its 28mph (limited) top speed, so the G Wiz actually finished third despite the slowest acceleration.

All - EVs - Andrew-T
Overtakes become quicker and safer, and it’s easier to get out of junctions and on to roundabouts, simply because the power delivery is instantaneous.

That's fine as long as it doesn't surprise other occupants of the roundabout trying to anticipate others' movements. They might expect it of a Porsche or the like ....

All - EVs - Bolt
Overtakes become quicker and safer, and it’s easier to get out of junctions and on to roundabouts, simply because the power delivery is instantaneous.

That's fine as long as it doesn't surprise other occupants of the roundabout trying to anticipate others' movements. They might expect it of a Porsche or the like ....

No one should take it for granted a motor is going to be slow, and as I do, expect anything to happen as it usually does, the weirdest of things happen on the road these days, got to admit I was surprised this morning at a set of traffic lights as a Tesla was next to me, as the lights changed the Tesla shot off, surprising how quick they are...

All - EVs - misar
Overtakes become quicker and safer, and it’s easier to get out of junctions and on to roundabouts, simply because the power delivery is instantaneous.

That's fine as long as it doesn't surprise other occupants of the roundabout trying to anticipate others' movements. They might expect it of a Porsche or the like ....

No one should take it for granted a motor is going to be slow, and as I do, expect anything to happen as it usually does, the weirdest of things happen on the road these days, got to admit I was surprised this morning at a set of traffic lights as a Tesla was next to me, as the lights changed the Tesla shot off, surprising how quick they are...

The issue is familiarity with the range within which most vehicles are usually operating, not expecting them to be slow. If pedestrians and other drivers are suddenly confronted with 2 ton EVs hurtling towards them out of the blue I predict a sharp rise in accidents. Especially if the EV drivers all have the same attitude as you to other road users.

All - EVs - badbusdriver

Consider this, the driver of one of these new super duper Tesla's is waiting to pull out on to a main road. He knows he can hit 60mph in 2 seconds, so he is looking for a very small gap, which he see's and goes for. Meanwhile, the fully laden truck at the back end of the gap is being driven by someone who doesn't grasp just how quick the Tesla can accelerate, so when the Tesla pulls out, seemingly right in front of him, he jumps on the brakes, the truck jackknifes, tips over and causes a huge accident blocking the road for hours.

Who's fault would that be?

All - EVs - mcb100
Well, that escalated…:).
All - EVs - groaver

Even mundane electric cars like Zoes accelerate to 40 mph rapidly.

People are going to have get used to that quickly (pardon the pun) as accidents will happen where they suddenly are up the rear of another in town driving.

All - EVs - Bromptonaut

Even mundane electric cars like Zoes accelerate to 40 mph rapidly.

People are going to have get used to that quickly (pardon the pun) as accidents will happen where they suddenly are up the rear of another in town driving.

I got in a tangle with a Twizy cycling in Central London; it was WAY quicker off the mark than an ICE city car.

All - EVs - movilogo

Perhaps EV manufacturers should implement a feature to replicate torque curve of ICE. In that way, people can't get surprised from full torque availability at any RPM.

DCT automatics replicate torque converter creeping even though it is not strictly necessary.

All - EVs - Terry W

F1 cars take ~2.6 seconds to 60mph. This is critical in the race to the first corner - design is unlikely to be compromised to benefit another part of the performance envelope.

I assume the problem is with friction between tarmac and tyre which limits acceleration. 2.0 seconds in a Tesla is barely plausible unless achieved with specialist (supersoft?) tyres + specialist road surfaces. Both when even slightly worn would become sub-optimal.

Finally the driver - or in this case the i**** in charge of the loud pedal and steering. In terms of skill level F1 drivers are truly exceptionalwith fitness, practice, reflexes etc. Purchasers of said Tesla would have bragging rights up to the point life support intervenes when car and scenery come together.

All - EVs - sammy1

I do not think the main problem of exceedingly quick cars is necessarily in traffic. My concern is more for cyclists and pedestrians. This new Tesla can accelerate 3 or 4 times faster than your average car, If you are a pedestrian trying to cross a road it can be difficult to judge a cars speed. You would only have to blink and a fast car is on you. Please don't say that they should be keeping to the speed limit as in the real world a lot ignore them. I wonder how many people have owned or really driven a fast car at its potential it can be quite frightening even in something as ordinary as a Golf GTI or S3. Most won't but some do and 0-60 in one of these is only 6sec not 2

All - EVs - badbusdriver

F1 cars take ~2.6 seconds to 60mph. This is critical in the race to the first corner - design is unlikely to be compromised to benefit another part of the performance envelope.

I assume the problem is with friction between tarmac and tyre which limits acceleration. 2.0 seconds in a Tesla is barely plausible unless achieved with specialist (supersoft?) tyres + specialist road surfaces. Both when even slightly worn would become sub-optimal.

Finally the driver - or in this case the i**** in charge of the loud pedal and steering. In terms of skill level F1 drivers are truly exceptionalwith fitness, practice, reflexes etc. Purchasers of said Tesla would have bragging rights up to the point life support intervenes when car and scenery come together.

F1 cars are pretty light, around 750kg, they are also rear wheel drive. They are capable of generating massive amounts of downforce to aid grip and cornering speed, but that won't affect the 0-60 time. The time is not quite as quick as you'd think because there is only so much of the power can be transmitted effectively to the road. When a driver fluffs the start, this is quite often as a result of excess wheelspin.

No such issues for an extremely powerful EV, with 4wd and sophisticated traction control systems ensuring no power is wasted, and the small matter of more than 2000kg pushing those tyres onto the road. Hence, in the case of the Tesla Model S Plaid and its 1020bhp, 60 comes up in 1.98 seconds.

Once upon a time, getting the optimum 0-60 time required a fair amount of skill, balancing just the right amount of power with just the right amount of wheelspin. With an extremely powerful EV like the Tesla mentioned above, anyone (who can afford to buy one) can do 0-60 in 2 seconds, regardless of how poor a driver they may be. OK, that is the extreme end of the scale, but even an entry level Model 3 can do 0-60 in 5.3 seconds. You don't have to go back too far back through time to find when that would have seen off most supercars.

Personally, I feel that there should be some kind of mandatory extra driver training for cars above a certain level of performance.

All - EVs - Andrew-T

He knows he can hit 60mph in 2 seconds,

Would that actually happen ? Any normal car would spin its wheels trying to do it. Maybe the weight of the EV provides necessary traction ?

All - EVs - badbusdriver

He knows he can hit 60mph in 2 seconds,

Would that actually happen ? Any normal car would spin its wheels trying to do it. Maybe the weight of the EV provides necessary traction ?

1.98 seconds may be a slight exaggeration on Tesla's part. After looking into that claim further, it seems based on using a drag strip (they have a sticky surface at the start line). 2.3-2.5 seconds is more likely on a dry (normal) road surface in good condition, but that is still a ridiculous level of acceleration though!.

My hypothetical scenario of pulling out from a junction on to a main road (as opposed to accelerating in a straight line0 would probably reduce the acceleration time, but it would still be way faster that anyone not really interested in cars would expect.

All - EVs - mcb100
The biggest battle for the driver is - believe me - winding on and unwind the steering lock as 600+Nm of instantaneous torque suddenly appears. That level of performance is best left for when all four wheels are pointing in the same direction.
All - EVs - pd

The performance version of the Model 3 can do 0-62 in 3.1 seconds.

The Model 3 is now Europe's best selling car and they seem to be everywhere in the UK. I haven't seen hundreds of reports of drivers accelerating into things.

Most people will never press the pedal that hard and they all have auto braking anyway.

I don't think it is much of an issue to be honest.

All - EVs - Bolt

The Model 3 is now Europe's best selling car and they seem to be everywhere in the UK. I haven't seen hundreds of reports of drivers accelerating into things.

any I have seen have been driving sensibly with only one exception which I mentioned before, a Tesla accelerating very quick from traffic lights but was out of sight fairly quick as well, that is the first one I have seen use its acceleration like that in town

Seen a few on M25/A21 speeding but so do others

All - EVs - sammy1

I thought I might post this here as the heading IS EVs.

Next year a portable battery pack will be available to charge your EV. Apparently it will cost £800 or you can rent one for around £50 a month. It will be the size of an average suitcase and will fit into a boot. The reputed charge will be some 20miles worth. You charge it in the home or office etc and transfer the charge to the vehicle. if you carry it in the car it can serve as an emergency back up. If you live in a terrace you can charge it in the house and transfer the portable to your car at the kerb, I expect that the battery pack will have some sort of security as it looks as though someone could easily pinch it if left unattended.

A battery to charge a battery! I do not know where this is going but suspect other companies are thinking this way with higher capacity packs. It will suit some owners

All - EVs - badbusdriver

I thought I might post this here as the heading IS EVs.

Next year a portable battery pack will be available to charge your EV. Apparently it will cost £800 or you can rent one for around £50 a month. It will be the size of an average suitcase and will fit into a boot. The reputed charge will be some 20miles worth. You charge it in the home or office etc and transfer the charge to the vehicle. if you carry it in the car it can serve as an emergency back up. If you live in a terrace you can charge it in the house and transfer the portable to your car at the kerb, I expect that the battery pack will have some sort of security as it looks as though someone could easily pinch it if left unattended.

A battery to charge a battery! I do not know where this is going but suspect other companies are thinking this way with higher capacity packs. It will suit some owners

With such a huge variety of battery sizes, I fail to see how they can say it will add 20 miles?. Maybe for the battery in car A, but if the battery in car B is 50% bigger, surely it can't add the same range?.

Also, the battery pack is the size of a suitcase. The kind of car you are most likely to have range anxiety in is something with a small battery, like a Honda e. This has a small boot anyway 171 litres!), so having the battery pack in there (assuming it fits) will massively reduce what little space you have to start with.

Then there is the weight (no mention here), which I'd expect to be around 20kg, maybe more. So not only a cumbersome thing to use, but if it is around that weight, it really ought to be secured in the boot to save it flying around the inside of the car if you have an accident.

All - EVs - Andrew-T

<< With such a huge variety of battery sizes, I fail to see how they can say it will add 20 miles?. Maybe for the battery in car A, but if the battery in car B is 50% bigger, surely it can't add the same range?.>>

Presumably this suitcase will have a claimed capacity in kW, so the range it provides will depend only on the demand of the car it is attached to ?

All - EVs - Terry W

Carrying a spare battery is no different in principle to carrying 5L of fuel in a can. Some cars even used to have a reserve tank which could be switched in when the main tank ran dry.

All evidence either (a) a lack of trust in the fuel/battery gauge, or (b) an inability to plan to refuel at an appropriate time.

The suitcase may have some merit however - it can be recharged from a 13 amp plug. On business staying in a hotel - take it to the room and plug in for a free charge.

All - EVs - Bolt

Carrying a spare battery is no different in principle to carrying 5L of fuel in a can. Some cars even used to have a reserve tank which could be switched in when the main tank ran dry.

All evidence either (a) a lack of trust in the fuel/battery gauge, or (b) an inability to plan to refuel at an appropriate time.

The suitcase may have some merit however - it can be recharged from a 13 amp plug. On business staying in a hotel - take it to the room and plug in for a free charge.

If it weighs in excess of 20kg I doubt anyone would take to a Hotel room to charge, its not far off a big bag of potatoes in weight

if battery tech carries on as it is I would think an extra battery could be fitted to car that would auto switch over to spare battery to get you out of trouble, I cannot see anyone with an EV carrying a spare battery with them, just a bit impractical imo....

All - EVs - mcb100
‘If it weighs in excess of 20kg I doubt anyone would take to a Hotel room to charge, its not far off a big bag of potatoes in weight’
Same as pulling a suitcase if you put it on wheels, though.
www.zipcharge.global/
All - EVs - Bolt
‘If it weighs in excess of 20kg I doubt anyone would take to a Hotel room to charge, its not far off a big bag of potatoes in weight’ Same as pulling a suitcase if you put it on wheels, though. www.zipcharge.global/

Yes and how awkward can they be sometimes, not something I would want to move around too often, if at all imo.

Think I will wait for Hydrogen cars to come along...

All - EVs - mcb100
I suspect you’ll be waiting a while for hydrogen. Yes, it’s a viable means of producing electricity, but compare the number of manufacturers going BEV to those embracing hydrogen. Even Toyota, early champions of hydrogen are introducing BEV cars to their ranges.
The charge point network is growing daily, whereas we only have eleven hydrogen stations - with two more planned. Whereas, as of today, there are 45732 public charging connectors in 16921 locations. The hydrogen ship has sailed.
www.zap-map.com/statistics/

Edited by mcb100 on 04/11/2021 at 09:06

All - EVs - Terry W

Compare the barriers to EV with long established ICE.

Lack of charging points, very high initial cost, low range. It has taken legislation mandating EV from 2030, large cost reductions and the development of a charging network to make EV a feasible alternative.

Hydrogen faces very similar barriers to EV in ~2010. Technically feasible but high cost, no distribution infrastructure, and no source of green hydrogen in high volumes required.

Whilst EV has obvious benefits over ICE, hydrogen has few benefits over battery bar range - increasingly less of an issue with increased range and fast charging.

Whether hydrogen is fundamentally better than battery is debatable - but I think for most car users it will be too late. Possible applications though for other kit - HGVs, site and specialist equipment.

All - EVs - Bolt
I suspect you’ll be waiting a while for hydrogen. Yes, it’s a viable means of producing electricity, but compare the number of manufacturers going BEV to those embracing hydrogen. Even Toyota, early champions of hydrogen are introducing BEV cars to their ranges. The charge point network is growing daily, whereas we only have eleven hydrogen stations - with two more planned. Whereas, as of today, there are 45732 public charging connectors in 16921 locations. The hydrogen ship has sailed. www.zap-map.com/statistics/

Had this discussion too many times to repeat myself, but there is time and green Hydrogen will come eventually as imo mains charged cars will be asking for problems by the time everyone gets an EV...

All - EVs - sammy1

JCB have sighed a billion plus contract with an Australian company to supply it with Hydrogen as it thinks it is a viable fuel for its plant business. Train companies are looking at Hydrogen as are companies making HGVs. It could very well catch up with electric in 5-10 years and would certainly be a more practical fuel

All - EVs - alan1302
‘If it weighs in excess of 20kg I doubt anyone would take to a Hotel room to charge, its not far off a big bag of potatoes in weight’ Same as pulling a suitcase if you put it on wheels, though. www.zipcharge.global/

Yes and how awkward can they be sometimes, not something I would want to move around too often, if at all imo.

Think I will wait for Hydrogen cars to come along...

It's like taking a suitcase to your hotel room if it's on wheels...so you just make 2 trips for luggage instead of one...hardly difficult or an inconvenience.

All - EVs - badbusdriver

It's like taking a suitcase to your hotel room if it's on wheels...so you just make 2 trips for luggage instead of one...hardly difficult or an inconvenience.

Surely that depends on how far away from the door you are parked and how far your room is from reception!.

I do think people will buy it, after all I have a customer who has an insurance policy to protect her insurance policy (some people are excessively worried about things!). But personally, I don't feel it would be worth bothering about.

As I said earlier, the kind of car for which range anxiety is justified is going to have a size of boot for which it wouldn't really be viable to carry a suitcase sized battery pack around in. On the other hand, the kind of car which has a big enough boot for a suitcase sized battery pack not to cause a massive inconvenience is likely to have a decent range due to having a big battery. And, because of that big battery, its unlikely you'd get anything like 20 miles.

Maybe if you have a large EV with a relatively small battery (and range), it would be worth having because it wouldn't make too much of a dent in luggage space. Something like the Citroen Space Tourer, Peugeot Traveller and Vauxhall Zafira Life (MPV/minibus versions of their medium sized vans). These will do up to 143 miles on the smaller of the two battery options (50kWh).

All - EVs - alan1302

It's like taking a suitcase to your hotel room if it's on wheels...so you just make 2 trips for luggage instead of one...hardly difficult or an inconvenience.

Surely that depends on how far away from the door you are parked and how far your room is from reception!.

If you are in a hotel that has rooms that far away you may already employ someone to bring your luggage anyway! :-)

All - EVs - misar
‘If it weighs in excess of 20kg I doubt anyone would take to a Hotel room to charge, its not far off a big bag of potatoes in weight’ Same as pulling a suitcase if you put it on wheels, though. www.zipcharge.global/

Yes and how awkward can they be sometimes, not something I would want to move around too often, if at all imo.

Think I will wait for Hydrogen cars to come along...

It's like taking a suitcase to your hotel room if it's on wheels...so you just make 2 trips for luggage instead of one...hardly difficult or an inconvenience.

Most of this portable battery discussion makes little sense.

With current technology BEV batteries provide around 0.25 KWh per Kg so your suitcase battery would be around 5 KWh. Possibly useful as a spare in the boot to avoid getting stuck at the roadside. Hardly worth lugging around as a means to recharge your main battery on a regular basis.

All - EVs - Terry W

Carrying a spare battery is a nonsense unless you are incapable of recharging before the one fixed to the car goes flat.

Where it would be of real benefit is to car breakdown services - rather than tow stranded cars they could plug in a charged small battery pack. Charge punters a £250 (?) refundable deposit for safe return.

All - EVs - Andrew-T

Carrying a spare battery is no different in principle to carrying 5L of fuel in a can. Some cars even used to have a reserve tank which could be switched in when the main tank ran dry.

If we are thinking of the 'suitcase' as a backup for a drained main battery some way from a charging station, I was thinking recently that when I head south from here (on the S side of the Mersey) I must cross Cheshire before finding an open petrol station: Whitchurch, 26 miles away. I can think of two or three one-time filling stations on the route, now long gone. Must be getting similar to the EV problem ?

All - EVs - Steveieb

Surely BMW cracked this problem with the I 3 and I8 by having a range extender ICE in the rear of the car.

The I3 had a BMW motorcycle engine and the I8 a Mini Cooper engine.

Only problem it hugely affected the car tax especially the I3.

All - EVs - focussed

Does it make a noise like a hoover or a food mixer?

All - EVs - focussed
I do quite a lot of miles in an EV with a 0-60 time of 4.5 seconds, and, I’ll be honest, the novelty of that type of performance doesn’t wear off. Power output is 300Kw (402hp), so even though the standing start is the headline figure, the acceleration continues all the way to its (restricted) top speed of 127mph. In real life, it’ll go as quickly or slowly as the driver demands - creep can be switched on and off to aid manoeuvring, and it’s possible to drive at barely perceptible speeds on the pedal. It’s not at all scary to drive unless you want to use the bottom quarter of the accelerator pedal travel. There is absolutely no need to wait for a gearbox to find the correct gear, turbo to spin up, variable valve timing to get itself organised. It just goes. Overtakes become quicker and safer, and it’s easier to get out of junctions and on to roundabouts, simply because the power delivery is instantaneous. If you haven’t driven one, go do it. Everything else then feels a little old-fashioned.

Does it make a noise like a hoover or a food mixer?

All - EVs - mcb100
You can hear tyres and a bit of wind noise - background stuff usually masked by engine noise. There’s sometimes a comment from those unfamiliar with EV’s that the indicators tick loudly - they don’t, there’s just so little other noise.
All - EVs - mcb100
The point is being missed on this external power pack. We’re constantly being told on this forum that EV’s are no good for people who can’t fit a wall box.
Average daily mileage in the UK is now 20 miles, this will add 20-40 miles of range. If you can’t plug your car in at home, simply charge the power pack during the day from a 13 amp socket, then charge the car from it overnight. It’d be difficult to steal as the cable is locked on at both ends, and it’s an armoured cable carrying, presumably, 7Kw. You’d know about it if you tried to put a pair of bolt cutters through it…
All - EVs - bathtub tom

How long before someone comes up with a small generator (run on red diesel) that you could store in the car.

All - EVs - badbusdriver

How long before someone comes up with a small generator (run on red diesel) that you could store in the car.

Well if you substitute red diesel for petrol, may I present the Vauxhall Ampera from 2012-2015 or the BMW i3 range extender from 2013-2019.

All - EVs - mcb100
Or the forthcoming Mazda MX-30 range extender.
All - EVs - madf

How long before someone comes up with a small generator (run on red diesel) that you could store in the car.

The BMW I3 launched in 2013 had- as an option - a 650cc petrol engine mated to a generator which would recharge the battery when charge fell to around 10%. Made sense when battery only range was 60 miles, then 120 miles (2016 facelift) but when range grew to 220 miles was dropped.

All - EVs - sammy1

I do not know how the AA/RAC deal with cars that are stranded without charge but something like this could do nicely, at least to get them to a suitable charger

All - EVs - alan1302

I do not know how the AA/RAC deal with cars that are stranded without charge but something like this could do nicely, at least to get them to a suitable charger

I know the RAC has a special van for dealing with it and has a generator onboard.

All - EVs - sammy1

I do not know how the AA/RAC deal with cars that are stranded without charge but something like this could do nicely, at least to get them to a suitable charger

I know the RAC has a special van for dealing with it and has a generator onboard.

Not good old fossil fuel to get an EV charged and out of trouble!

All - EVs - sajid

Think hydrogen powered cars be the next step no emissions just water

All - EVs - Bolt

Think hydrogen powered cars be the next step no emissions just water

eventually, yes I agree, its just the problem of producing green Hydrogen which is being worked on, there are ways which to do it, some apparently are easier than others but r&d will sort it, but it will happen, China are using it for Buses, and it could be used to drive good old engines instead of fossil fuels imo

All - EVs - mcb100
Are you hoping for hydrogen fuelled ICE cars or hydrogen fuel cell? Toyota are working on both - they recently raced a car using hydrogen to fuel an engine, but the buses in China, and the Toyota Mirai, are fuel cell vehicles.
All - EVs - Andrew-T

<< yes I agree, its just the problem of producing green Hydrogen which is being worked on, >>

No doubt ways will be found, but I have serious doubts about the notion of supplying many millions of cars doing what they do now with ICE, or EV for that matter. As a minority, perhaps.

All - EVs - Bolt

I do not know how the AA/RAC deal with cars that are stranded without charge but something like this could do nicely, at least to get them to a suitable charger

I know the RAC has a special van for dealing with it and has a generator onboard.

Not good old fossil fuel to get an EV charged and out of trouble!

Yes, The AA said they use a diesel generator on board to get an EV going again, no idea how long it takes to charge enough though they didn`t say....

All - EVs - Bromptonaut

Not good old fossil fuel to get an EV charged and out of trouble!

POssibly. Or it could be bio-diesel.

All - EVs - Terry W

There is a complex trade off between hydrogen and electric.

Both require electricity generation. This is similar for both - either green (turbines, solar etc) or fossil fuel based. Electicity generated can either be sent directly through the grid to a waiting EV battery for storage, or used to manufacture hydrogen.

Making hydrogen uses energy - currently ~20% of the electrical energy is lost in the process.

Both need distribution networks and capacity increases. Costs money to set up, run and incurs energy losses. Bulk distribution of hydrogen needs more development.

The electric grid uses well proven technology. Hydrogen can be distributed through either pipeline or compressed and delvered in tankers (very energy intensive).

Electric motors are very efficient (85%+) at converting stored energy to motion. Hydrogen less so as fuel cells are ~60% efficient in converting hydrogen to electricity, and if used as ICE will suffer all of the frictional and heat losses asscoiated with normal ICE.

Overall the efficiency of hydrogen as a fuel seems materially worse than electric/battery. There is only one fundamental benefit - a hydrogen vehicle will be materially lighter than its battery equivalent and use less energy in use.

On balance my guess is that hydrogen may have advantages for HGVs, site equipment and where high energy levels or extended range is required. For everyday personal transport battery will prevail.

This is just an opinion and I may be wrong. But those waiting for the emergence of hydrogen to replace their existing ICE may (IMHO) be waiting a very long time!

All - EVs - mcb100
Good article here -

medium.com/toyotaresearch/the-misguided-war-of-the...8
All - EVs - alan1302

On balance my guess is that hydrogen may have advantages for HGVs, site equipment and where high energy levels or extended range is required. For everyday personal transport battery will prevail.

This is just an opinion and I may be wrong. But those waiting for the emergence of hydrogen to replace their existing ICE may (IMHO) be waiting a very long time!

This is my thought as well...although for HGVs/Buses there is an interssting YouTube video showing some trials in Germany using overhead cables to power trucks on the motorways.

All - EVs - sammy1

This is my thought as well...although for HGVs/Buses there is an interssting YouTube video showing some trials in Germany using overhead cables to power trucks on the motorways

There is a trial on the cards for the motorway near Sc***horpe

All - EVs - TinaS

I share Sammy1’s concerns in his post of 3 Nov regarding safety for pedestrians.

A neighbour down the road recently followed the lead of his neighbour in the adjoining house (must keep up!) and acquired a Tesla Model 3, he parks on his drive at an angle facing towards the house next door. The second time I saw the car it was sitting on the drive with a very crumpled nearside front corner. The metal railings between the two front gardens were demolished and the porch area of the house next door had had the mortar knocked out of the stonework next to the front door over an area of about half a square metre with some of the stones pushed inwards (these are solidly built Edwardian semis fortunately). A day or two later the drive was empty apart from some very obvious tyre marks and a section of railing with a Tesla-shaped dent in it. Probably one of those accidents where the go pedal is mistaken for the stop pedal with some added power thrown in for good measure.

I should add that the only time I have spoken to this neighbour was to tell him he’d nearly run me over when he was reversing out of his drive in his wife’s car one frosty morning without waiting for the rear screen to defrost, children in the back, no doubt in a hurry to get them to school. Since his Tesla has returned from Tesla hospital, I make sure to check he is not on the move or even in his car before I cross the end of his drive! A few days ago I was waiting at a pedestrian crossing for the lights to change when the characteristic grille-less bumper of another Tesla appeared (they are proliferating round these parts). I made sure it was at a standstill and engaged eye contact with the driver before venturing across.

All - EVs - meldrew
This is just an opinion and I may be wrong. But those waiting for the emergence of hydrogen to replace their existing ICE may (IMHO) be waiting a very long time!

My two reason why Hydrogen is a non starter:

1. The R101

2. The Hindenberg

All - EVs - Bolt
This is just an opinion and I may be wrong. But those waiting for the emergence of hydrogen to replace their existing ICE may (IMHO) be waiting a very long time!

My two reason why Hydrogen is a non starter:

1. The R101

2. The Hindenberg

It was said the coating on the ships set light and caused a catastrophe because the coating was flammable, not because of the hydrogen as that would have gone before the fire started, unless you know better

and as certain batteries are flammable can destroy a car in no time so not much difference apart from safety features built into batteries, assuming they work?

Lets just say I cannot see all cars being mains powered without a lot more electricity generation regardless of how good batteries are becoming, even with this new tech, range is increased depending on weight of car up to 600 miles apparently..

I personally would be happy with that if the price was right, the only problem for me would be charging, though would still wait for Hydrogen regardless of time it takes to hit the market as it will do eventually!

All - EVs - Sofa Spud

For new cars, there's simply no point in having hydrogen-burning internal combustion engines because a using the hydrogen in a fuel-cell is much more efficient. But pure battery EVs have improved to the level where even fuel-cell cars won't be needed.

JCB is introducing hydrogen fuelled internal combustion engines for some of their machines. The rationale for this is that a lot of the machinery operates where there's nowhere to charge batteries and also they can adapt their current diesel engines to run on hydrogen by converting them to spark-ignition among other things. A lot cheaper than going over to fuel-cells. JCB have introduced battery electric machines too, which are a good option where charging is available.

As I've said before, one area where hydrogen combustion engines could make sense is in converting classic cars. There must be a market for that, given that people are prepared to convert classics into battery EVs now.

Edited by Sofa Spud on 06/11/2021 at 10:13

All - EVs - bathtub tom
It was said the coating on the ships set light and caused a catastrophe because the coating was flammable, not because of the hydrogen as that would have gone before the fire started,

I can accept the coating was flammable, but where would the hydrogen have 'gone' if it didn't contribute to the fire?

All - EVs - misar
It was said the coating on the ships set light and caused a catastrophe because the coating was flammable, not because of the hydrogen as that would have gone before the fire started,

I can accept the coating was flammable, but where would the hydrogen have 'gone' if it didn't contribute to the fire?

It is so light that it would simply have risen up into the atmosphere and be rapidly diluted far beyond any explosion or combustion hazard.

Those anxious to cite two airships as a reason for avoiding hydrogen today may care to do a search for the major explosions caused around the world every year by petroleum fuels and natural gas. Also worth remembering that we used town gas for more than a hundred years and hydrogen was a major component of that.

All - EVs - bathtub tom
I can accept the coating was flammable, but where would the hydrogen have 'gone' if it didn't contribute to the fire?

It is so light that it would simply have risen up into the atmosphere and be rapidly diluted far beyond any explosion or combustion hazard.

Beyond the flammable, burning coating, without catching fire? Looking at footage of the Hindenberg disaster, I'd say that was far more than just the flammable coating on fire.

All - EVs - madf

" Hindenburg's covering was made of cotton canvas doped with a solution of cellulose acetate butyrate, to which aluminum powder (and in some places iron oxide) had been added."

I.e. highly inflammable.

All - EVs - Bolt

I'd say that was far more than just the flammable coating on fire.

Yes it was a bad fire but the coating was thick and the reaction of materials made for a serious fire which was blamed on the Hydrogen, which was proved to not be the case

apparently tests have been done on hydrogen tanks to see if they could ignite the hydrogen, but as soon as the tanks were split the hydrogen leaked out before the sparks could ignite it. in fact I would say hydrogen is safer than batteries

although Teslas new batteries may be an exception to the rule at the moment?

All - EVs - Bolt

Also worth remembering that we used town gas for more than a hundred years and hydrogen was a major component of that.

Maybe again as they want to use the existing gas network for Hydrogen, would be a waste of boilers to sell those Hydrogen combination boilers and not use them, and no reason imo why it couldn`t be adapted for use in cars, IMO, of course!

Ps hydrogen I expect you know burns invisibly, so it cannot be seen and hydrogen boilers have sensors to know when the gas is burning.

Edited by Bolt on 06/11/2021 at 15:48

All - EVs - misar

Ps hydrogen I expect you know burns invisibly, so it cannot be seen and hydrogen boilers have sensors to know when the gas is burning.

So does my natural gas boiler. How else would the system know?

Edited by misar on 06/11/2021 at 17:00

All - EVs - sammy1

Ps hydrogen I expect you know burns invisibly, so it cannot be seen and hydrogen boilers have sensors to know when the gas is burning.

So does my natural gas boiler. How else would the system know?

My not too ancient combi boiler has a little window in the burner chamber which shows the gas burning in a lovely shade of blue! You can also see the burner rising when hot water is called for. You can also observe the thermostats clicking and the burner firing up and down and observe the pilot flame

All - EVs - Andrew-T

<< It is so light that it would simply have risen up into the atmosphere and be rapidly diluted far beyond any explosion or combustion hazard. >>

That is a ridiculous suggestion. It would certainly mix with the atmosphere and burn rapidly if there was any spark or source of ignition. It is much more flammable than the coating material - which apparently caught easily ?

All - EVs - bathtub tom

<< It is so light that it would simply have risen up into the atmosphere and be rapidly diluted far beyond any explosion or combustion hazard. >>

That is a ridiculous suggestion. It would certainly mix with the atmosphere and burn rapidly if there was any spark or source of ignition. It is much more flammable than the coating material - which apparently caught easily ?

Yes, misar hasen't returned with an explanation since the risible suggestion at lunchtime.

All - EVs - misar

<< It is so light that it would simply have risen up into the atmosphere and be rapidly diluted far beyond any explosion or combustion hazard. >>

That is a ridiculous suggestion. It would certainly mix with the atmosphere and burn rapidly if there was any spark or source of ignition. It is much more flammable than the coating material - which apparently caught easily ?

Yes, misar hasen't returned with an explanation since the risible suggestion at lunchtime.

My risible suggestion as you put it was about gaseous hydrogen leaking from an airship into the open atmosphere. If you want to investigate hydrogen safety further there is plenty of detailed information available. Here is something simple to get you started,

www.nrdc.org/experts/christian-tae/hydrogen-safety...r

All - EVs - L4Leather
range is increased depending on weight of car up to 600 miles apparently..

I personally would be happy with that if the price was right, the only problem for me would be charging,

With a 600 mile range the typical motorist could recharge their battery once a fortnight while they were asleep. Quite possibly no need to visit a fuel station ever again.

All - EVs - Bolt

With a 600 mile range the typical motorist could recharge their battery once a fortnight while they were asleep. Quite possibly no need to visit a fuel station ever again.

If that mileage range included running all lights and heater, assuming the heater was needed, or aircon, then that would be good enough for most people.

assuming charging stations could be accessible anywhere without problems and do not take more than 10 minutes to fully charge, and there isn`t a massive queue to get to it, which I think would probably happen if problems occur with charging stations!

All - EVs - Bromptonaut

My two reason why Hydrogen is a non starter:

1. The R101

2. The Hindenberg

Interesting debate about the Hindenburg is ongoing.

In that case the aircraft was operating, normally, fully under control and performing a docking process when it apparently spontaneously ignited. Loss of gas from airships due to leaks and chaffing of the bags containing the hydrogen was an issue for R101's rival R100. The the author Nevil Shute who under his full name Nevil Norway was the Chief Calculator on the project explains it in some detail in his autobiography.

R101's fire was secondary to the aircraft flying into terrain after control difficulties in poor weather.

All - EVs - Terry W

There were several survivors from both the R101 and Hindenburg disasters.

The hydrogen did ignite but it needs a source of oxygen to do so. Being lighter than air, the hydrogen went upwards, mixed with air which contains oxygen, and ignited.

The structure of the airship and the passengers and crew are below - hence some survivors instead of total immolation!

All - EVs - sammy1

"""

If that mileage range included running all lights and heater, assuming the heater was needed, or aircon, then that would be good enough for most people."""

At least with an ICE the running of the heater is free has the combustion heats the water jacket and it sustains until the journey is over. Also the other electrics are generated by the alternator replenishing the 12v battery. I do not know what the demand on the EVs battery is but it must be quite a lot in winter running the above. The energy coming from the grid.

All - EVs - Wee Willie Winkie

My Model 3 is 1 year old today. Since I took delivery I have done 10,100 miles with an efficiency of 234 w/mile. The car has 3 trip meters so I have been able to track efficiency over all time/winter/summer. All of them are roughly around 230-240 w/mile - so pretty much no difference if I have lights /heater/ aircon / heated seats.

Even if it did make a difference, at a cost of £2.50 to charge the 50kWh battery, would I be bothered by a reduction in range? Nope. I'd just plan my charging a little more carefully.

All - EVs - Engineer Andy

My Model 3 is 1 year old today. Since I took delivery I have done 10,100 miles with an efficiency of 234 w/mile. The car has 3 trip meters so I have been able to track efficiency over all time/winter/summer. All of them are roughly around 230-240 w/mile - so pretty much no difference if I have lights /heater/ aircon / heated seats.

Even if it did make a difference, at a cost of £2.50 to charge the 50kWh battery, would I be bothered by a reduction in range? Nope. I'd just plan my charging a little more carefully.

You're lucky that currently (pardon the pun) you're only being charged £2.50 to charge it - presumably not at home. The price of electricity as per the price cap is around 19-20p per kWh, which would cost you around £10. I wonder how long the public chargers will be on cheapo rates?

Still vastly cheaper than an equivalent sized ICE car (even taking into account the far lower range), but recouping the extra purachse cost would take that much longer.

I still don't understand why both the cars, chargers and electricity (public sites) get subsidies that we ALL have to pay through taxation when it seems patently obvious (no offense intended) that 99% of EV buyers can easily afford the unsubsidised cost of purchasing and running them.

All - EVs - sammy1

"""still don't understand why both the cars, chargers and electricity (public sites) get subsidies that we ALL have to pay through taxation when it seems patently obvious (no offense intended) that 99% of EV buyers can easily afford the unsubsidised cost of purchasing and running them.""""

Yes it is a slap in the face to the rest of us. It surely cannot go on much longer?

All - EVs - alan1302

"""still don't understand why both the cars, chargers and electricity (public sites) get subsidies that we ALL have to pay through taxation when it seems patently obvious (no offense intended) that 99% of EV buyers can easily afford the unsubsidised cost of purchasing and running them.""""

Yes it is a slap in the face to the rest of us. It surely cannot go on much longer?

It's required to encourage more EV ownership - how would you encourage more people to buy them?

All - EVs - Engineer Andy

"""still don't understand why both the cars, chargers and electricity (public sites) get subsidies that we ALL have to pay through taxation when it seems patently obvious (no offense intended) that 99% of EV buyers can easily afford the unsubsidised cost of purchasing and running them.""""

Yes it is a slap in the face to the rest of us. It surely cannot go on much longer?

It's required to encourage more EV ownership - how would you encourage more people to buy them?

Apparently there doesn't seem to be a need for that. As a result, prices will come down of their own accord. Or how about just the well-off pay a tax to subsidise...themselves? No, I didn't think that would work either.

All - EVs - alan1302

"""still don't understand why both the cars, chargers and electricity (public sites) get subsidies that we ALL have to pay through taxation when it seems patently obvious (no offense intended) that 99% of EV buyers can easily afford the unsubsidised cost of purchasing and running them.""""

Yes it is a slap in the face to the rest of us. It surely cannot go on much longer?

It's required to encourage more EV ownership - how would you encourage more people to buy them?

Apparently there doesn't seem to be a need for that. As a result, prices will come down of their own accord. Or how about just the well-off pay a tax to subsidise...themselves? No, I didn't think that would work either.

Why do you think there is not a need for it? They are selling what they can make at the moment but would they without the subsidy?

If you were well off would you buy one at full price?

I notice you ignored my question about how you would encourage people purchase them.

All - EVs - Xileno

"I still don't understand why both the cars, chargers and electricity (public sites) get subsidies that we ALL have to pay through taxation..."

To encourage a change in direction of behaviour. Those comparatively well-heeled drivers of new EVs will enable some secondhand ones to become available to those of lower incomes. The same could be said of many subsidies, such as the solar panels that we all pay through via our tariffs; or the Govt's heatpump subsidies. Imprecise methods but probably the best we have?

All - EVs - Engineer Andy

"I still don't understand why both the cars, chargers and electricity (public sites) get subsidies that we ALL have to pay through taxation..."

To encourage a change in direction of behaviour. Those comparatively well-heeled drivers of new EVs will enable some secondhand ones to become available to those of lower incomes. The same could be said of many subsidies, such as the solar panels that we all pay through via our tariffs; or the Govt's heatpump subsidies. Imprecise methods but probably the best we have?

Not really the same, given people on modest incomes still cannot afford EVs - and often they aren't worth it because they physically cannot charge them at home (they live in a flat or terrace house with only non-allocated on-road parking with no way of installing charging facilities).

With solar panels, they can be installed in smaller amounts and the costs are far lower than EVs. Heat pumps have the same problems as EVs, and also need huge changes to homes that aren't well insulated already, if they can be at all. My flat block's lease agreement may well prevent them being installed, as may planning restrictions and safety issues (mainly upper floors). I certainly wouldn't wall all the upper floor flats' outdoor units installed outside my flat - the noise! Nowhere else to put them (we have pitched roofs).

We have similar issues trying to get PV panels installed - we'd have to get permission from the freeholder, who could reasonably expect or demand a large percentage of the revenue from them generating electricty.

A LOT of these green subsidies are designed to benefit the well off when many of these technologies were already being adopted by them (hence why the incentives for PV panels were reduced/ended).

All - EVs - Andrew-T

<< A LOT of these green subsidies are designed to benefit the well off when many of these technologies were already being adopted by them (hence why the incentives for PV panels were reduced/ended). >>

At the time my PV panels were installed 10 years ago we were enticed by a high Feed-in tariff - which we still enjoy. But the purpose was to jump-start the PV installation industry so it could cope with the created demand. We still had to buy the installation up front.

All - EVs - alan1302

I still don't understand why both the cars, chargers and electricity (public sites) get subsidies that we ALL have to pay through taxation when it seems patently obvious (no offense intended) that 99% of EV buyers can easily afford the unsubsidised cost of purchasing and running them.

Without the subsidy they are less likely to purchase an EV, if there are no EV's then there won't be any chargers. So the government subsidies them to encourage more sales of EV's which will bring with them a bigger and better charging network.

How would you encourage more people to take up EV's?

All - EVs - Bolt

How would you encourage more people to take up EV's?

bring the price of the cars down, I suspect once most have an EV the price of electric will equal petrol/diesel as more use electric, the government will want there cut of fuel tax on it so even though a subsidy will help sell cars (or not) the price will go up the more is used...that is unless people don`t wait for better range cars to be developed which is happening all the time

to some why buy an EV now when they are being improved all the time and second hand are out of date fairly quickly, unless you have plenty of spare cash to throw away

All - EVs - Andrew-T

To some, why buy an EV now when they are being improved all the time and second hand are out of date fairly quickly, unless you have plenty of spare cash to throw away.

There will always be some who prefer to be ahead of the crowd with new tech, especially when encouraged by tax concessions. They are effectively beta-testers for the crowd. Like those who bought Sinclairs or Amstrads back in the day.

I'm not one of those, I wait for the gamma versions to appear, and maybe get a second-hand one ....

All - EVs - alan1302

How would you encourage more people to take up EV's?

bring the price of the cars down,

That is what the subsidy does...EVs are going to be expensive at the moment comapred to ICE cars - these are all new cars which require a lot of money invested into new manufactuing and that money needs to recouped by the manufactuerer.

All - EVs - mcb100
And the other point is that manufacturers are selling all the EV’s they can get hold of with current supply issues. Market forces are at work.
All - EVs - Terry W

All new cars are expensive - most folk drive s/h cars.

There are ~33m cars on UK roads. ~2.4m new cars are sold each year. If a "new" car is defined as less than 3 years old, only ~7.2m cars are "new" (22%).

EV is subsidised to encourage sales - main benefits - no tax/duty on "fuel", and no road tax. A S/H market can only develop following the sale of new vehicles - no surprise that the S/H market is currently very limited, but will look very different in 5 years time!

Observations about rapid technology change rendering older s/h EV quickly obselete is well founded - prices will likely fall as more modern EVs become available.

As the government seem intent on banning ICE in favour of EV, complaining bitterly about recharging, range, battery longevity, cost of new vehicles, driving experience etc is a futile waste of effort.

They are all issues which can be overcome - some barriers are imagined, some need more infrastructure, some are simply a function of elapsed time.

A rather simplistic analogue - but valid nonetheless. Fibre broadband roll out started in 2008. 13 years later - 95% of households are cabled. Major changes in technology and infrastructure can be implemented in short timescales if the will and money is there.

All - EVs - Wee Willie Winkie

Yes, that price is at home. Octopus Go tariff gives 4 hours at night at a rate of 5p per kWh. Okay, I can only get around 28kWh during that time, but a theoretical full tank is,still just £2.50.

I'm under no illusions attractive pricing like this will last forever, but I'm making hay whilst the sun shines, so to speak.

All - EVs - misar

At least with an ICE the running of the heater is free has the combustion heats the water jacket and it sustains until the journey is over. Also the other electrics are generated by the alternator replenishing the 12v battery. I do not know what the demand on the EVs battery is but it must be quite a lot in winter running the above. The energy coming from the grid.

The ICE vehicle heater is only "free" in the sense that it uses waste heat from the engine that would otherwise be discarded. But the waste heat is there because the ICE is not 100% efficient in converting the fuel (which you paid for) into the motion of the vehicle. Likewise extra fuel is used in driving the alternator. The energy coming from the filling station.

Conversely all EVs have regen braking which uses energy otherwise wasted as heat when conventionally braking the vehicle to recharge the battery. The recovered energy provides electricity towards running the electronics/lighting and possibly even helps to heat (or cool) the vehicle.

All - EVs - sammy1

""""Conversely all EVs have regen braking which uses energy otherwise wasted as heat when conventionally braking the vehicle to recharge the battery. The recovered energy provides electricity towards running the electronics/lighting and possibly even helps to heat (or cool) the vehicle."""

Yes of course you have to brake but the act of braking is also"" loosing"" the energy that you used to get the speed in the first place > OK you are recovering energy by using the brakes but you do not recover it all.

All - EVs - Bolt

OK you are recovering energy by using the brakes but you do not recover it all.

It isn`t actually using the brakes, starting braking starts a motor/generator to use momentum of the car to turn the generator to produce electricity, it is the generator that does the braking rather than the brakes, unless you need to brake harder for a junction, in effect the brakes are only an emergency stop or you need to slow down faster than the generator is able to

All - EVs - sammy1

""""As the government seem intent on banning ICE in favour of EV, complaining bitterly about recharging, range, battery longevity, cost of new vehicles, driving experience etc is a futile waste of effort."""

How is it a futile waste of effort. The subsides on offer have been reduced and it is largely company perks that are selling EVs. IF the product was cheaper, gave a reasonable range, had a charging infrastructure that was readily available etc. NO it is all about customer confidence in the produce which is failing to deliver. Having seen Panorama in the week about mining for cobalt in the Congo and the local population scratching a living digging the ore manually from quarries I do not think I would buy an EV on principle. Next door to this operation is the multi-billion conglomerate that is Glencore supplying cobalt to Tesla. Glencore's operation surrounded by a Mexican type wall to keep the locals out. The local nuns who help support the community have resorted to buying some shares in Tesla with a view to attend the shareholders meetings to get the company to help. So far without success!. To their credit Tesla say they are reducing the cobalt they use in their smaller vehicles.

The fact that hybrids will continue to 2035 with ICE and a battery is a bit of an anomoly

All - EVs - alan1302

Having seen Panorama in the week about mining for cobalt in the Congo and the local population scratching a living digging the ore manually from quarries I do not think I would buy an EV on principle.

The other day you said you were interested! LOL

All - EVs - sammy1

Having seen Panorama in the week about mining for cobalt in the Congo and the local population scratching a living digging the ore manually from quarries I do not think I would buy an EV on principle.

The other day you said you were interested! LOL

Now sitting on the fence with quite a lot of the motoring fraternity! The MINI is a cheeky little thing though

All - EVs - Bolt

Having seen Panorama in the week about mining for cobalt in the Congo and the local population scratching a living digging the ore manually from quarries I do not think I would buy an EV on principle.

The other day you said you were interested! LOL

Now sitting on the fence with quite a lot of the motoring fraternity! The MINI is a cheeky little thing though

Tesla make cobalt free batteries and working on new ones to replace the batteries they use on the other cars, which knowing tesla will be fairly quick.

All - EVs - mcb100
Whereas cobalt is used to remove sulphur from crude oil. 500grams is used every 80,000 gallons of petrol produced, if the sulphur isn’t removed we get acid rain.
All - EVs - RT
Whereas cobalt is used to remove sulphur from crude oil. 500grams is used every 80,000 gallons of petrol produced, if the sulphur isn’t removed we get acid rain.

There are several, perhaps many, different grades of crude oil - the level of sulphur varies and not all grades are used for petrol refining.