Shock horror, EV is less 'efficient' than ICE car! | Motoring discussion | Back Room Forum

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Tue 1 Jun 2021 20:08

Shock horror, EV is less 'efficient' than ICE car! - badbusdriver

Of course there are particular circumstances here, but (I think) not unusual ones for an EV owner who needs to charge on route.

Reading a road test in the May issue of Top Gear magazine, featuring the VW ID4, Ford Mustang Mach-E and Volvo XC40 Recharge. On the way to the road test location, the Volvo visited an Ionity charger. Doesn't say what the power available was, but working out how much the electricity cost, along with the Volvo's average efficiency of 2.7 miles per kWh, it was apparently the equivalent of an ICE car doing 21mpg!.

Sticking with efficiency, they said that the Ford was, by far, the most efficient, "Coming back across Exmoor, pushed by a tailwind, it was returning nearly five miles per kWh, when neither rival could be tempted above four.

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Tue 1 Jun 2021 20:12

Shock horror, EV is less 'efficient' than ICE car! - movilogo

Energy density of petrol is lot higher than Li-ion battery.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density

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Tue 1 Jun 2021 20:27

Shock horror, EV is less 'efficient' than ICE car! - Wee Willie Winkie

Ionity is the most expensive public charger out there - 69p per kw.

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Wed 2 Jun 2021 00:27

Shock horror, EV is less 'efficient' than ICE car! - focussed

Reading any mainstream media tripe about climate, co2, and electric cars you should be aware that If any article starts with or contains the words "Scientists say" or " A consensus of scientists has advised" you are being conned.

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Wed 2 Jun 2021 17:41

Shock horror, EV is less 'efficient' than ICE car! - Engineer Andy

Reading any mainstream media tripe about climate, co2, and electric cars you should be aware that If any article starts with or contains the words "Scientists say" or " A consensus of scientists has advised" you are being conned.

Rather like the overly used term 'experts'. :-)

As someone who has over my career dealt with many scientists, clinicians and other professionals whose profession has been 'sainted' by the media, especially in recent years/decades, I can safely say that there are at least as many i****s, nasty peices of work, liars/frauds and egomaniacs as in the rest of society, if not more, as their celebrity has increased in the naive/lazy eyes of the media.

One of reasons why I gravitated towards engineering rather than science, despite liking the content of both fields.

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Wed 2 Jun 2021 08:02

Shock horror, EV is less 'efficient' than ICE car! - edlithgow

Energy density of petrol is lot higher than Li-ion battery.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density

Thats only slightly related to efficiency, though.

I note from the graph in your link, that aluminium is the star on a unit volume basis, so my engine should be at its best. briefly, when burning itself.

I do sometimes shove a beer can in the exhaust manifold, but I havn't figured out a way to get them into the intake manifold in a usable form.

Might be a bit abrasive.

Edited by edlithgow on 02/06/2021 at 08:04

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Wed 2 Jun 2021 17:42

Shock horror, EV is less 'efficient' than ICE car! - Engineer Andy

Energy density of petrol is lot higher than Li-ion battery.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density

As also ably demonstrated by Jason of Engineering Explained in a YouTube video.

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Wed 2 Jun 2021 19:45

Shock horror, EV is less 'efficient' than ICE car! - Sofa Spud

Energy density of petrol is lot higher than Li-ion battery.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_density

But nearly all of the energy in the battery can be used to drive an EV, with minimal loss. Only 25 to 30% of the energy in petrol (slightly more in diesel fuel) goes to drive the car, the rest is wasted as heat.

Add to that the amount of energy needed to drive an electric car is roughly the same as is used to manufacture the fuel to drive an equivalent petrol or diesel car.

Edited by Sofa Spud on 02/06/2021 at 19:48

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Wed 2 Jun 2021 21:15

Shock horror, EV is less 'efficient' than ICE car! - Grenache

I remember my electrical engineering lecturer, many years ago, said that in a city of 200,000 people, the electricity lost in the resistance of the cables was worth about £1m per day. (That was in 1978).

With everyone charging their cars up the current will be higher therefore much more loss in the cables. So it's rubbish to talk about 100% efficiency, no such thing!

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Wed 2 Jun 2021 06:43

Shock horror, EV is less 'efficient' than ICE car! - Will deBeast

It annoys me when vehicles are marketed as 'zero emissions'.

Sure, there's nothing coming out of the tailpipe. But what about all the energy and materials taken up in the vehicle's manufacture? Or being shed by its tyres as it moves along? Or at the electricity generating plant? etc.

I'm sure I will move to an EV at some point. But now that I've retired, the lack of commute means that it will be some time before the economics stack up.

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Wed 2 Jun 2021 08:44

Shock horror, EV is less 'efficient' than ICE car! - Oli rag

I've also read that the emissions of ICE vehicles don't include the energy used in converting crude oil to petrol/ diesel, plus the transport to the fuel station etc.

Edited by Oli rag on 02/06/2021 at 08:45

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Wed 2 Jun 2021 21:59

Shock horror, EV is less 'efficient' than ICE car! - Will deBeast

I've also read that the emissions of ICE vehicles don't include the energy used in converting crude oil to petrol/ diesel, plus the transport to the fuel station etc.

That's probably true.

When you start to trace components back it get very complicated. The huge energy needed to create aluminium, for instance. Plus mining and transporting the Bauxite. I seem to recall the process uses caustic soda, which has to come from elsewhere. And so on.

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Wed 2 Jun 2021 09:10

Shock horror, EV is less 'efficient' than ICE car! - skidpan

the Volvo's average efficiency of 2.7 miles per kWh, it was apparently the equivalent of an ICE car doing 21mpg!.

Ionity is the most expensive public charger out there - 69p per kw.

At 69p per kWh it would cost me about £8.28 for a 12kWh charge in the Superb iV which would then cover about 30 mile on average until it dropped to zero miles and the petrol engine cut in. £8,28 is about 1.5 gallons at current prices thus the Superb would be doing the equivalent of approx 20 mpg, ouch. But it proves that the magazine is correct using the Ionity charger.

But surely you would only use such a rip off charger in an absolute emergency meaning its a pointless calculation.

On our Octopus Go tariff which at cheap rate is 5p per kWh a full charge costs about 60p. Travel 30 miles on that and it works out at equivalent of 315 mpg.

But I will say what I have said before, there is no way I will be going full electric in the foreseeable future. PHEV's appear to work for us and whilst more expensive that an ICE car they are cheaper than a full electric. The 4 year cost projection I did before I bought the Superb suggested that it would cost about the same over that period as an ICE Superb with the same spec and performance. So far I can se no reason for that calc to be wrong.

Even if I charged the car at the day time rate of 13.45p per kWh a full charge would only cost 161.4 p, again travel 30 miles and its the equivalent of 117 mpg.

Looking in the Aviemore area using the most expensive charger would cost me about £3 for a full charge. Using the above figures that would be the equivalent of about 63 mpg, slightly more than we get using petrol.

Its been said many times before, never let the truth get in the way of a good story.

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Wed 2 Jun 2021 09:59

Shock horror, EV is less 'efficient' than ICE car! - badbusdriver

But surely you would only use such a rip off charger in an absolute emergency meaning its a pointless calculation.

I'm not sure that would be the case. Seems the main concern for folk who have just, or are thinking about going for an EV is range anxiety. So if a traveller is worried about this, or are making a stop anyway, wouldn't they just plug in without giving too much thought to how much the electricity is costing?.

Strikes me that this is a bit like the cost of food in motorway services, Ionic pushing the prices right up because they think either folk won't feel they have a choice (possibly due to poor journey planning granted), or because of them just not considering how much they are paying.

Maybe once more folk start to get their heads round miles per kWh, and the cost of the electricity in relation to that, there might be less 'rip off' prices such as this. But for now, it looks like companies such as Ionic (though I'm sure there are others) are just ripping customers off as much as they feel they can get away with?.

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Wed 2 Jun 2021 10:43

Shock horror, EV is less 'efficient' than ICE car! - John F

One can debate the relative costs of the various sources of energy till the cows come home, but there is no escaping the fact that EVs, especially hybrid ones, weigh around 200kg more than an equivalent ICE car, mainly because batteries weigh far more than liquid fuel tanks, and thus require more energy to move around. But the debate gets more complicated when regenerative braking is considered - how much energy is required to wear down a set of brake pads? Google doesn't seem to know.

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Wed 2 Jun 2021 11:47

Shock horror, EV is less 'efficient' than ICE car! - movilogo

weigh around 200kg more than an equivalent ICE car, mainly because batteries weigh far more than liquid fuel tanks,

Fuel gets burned when used, so weight of car reduces as tank goes near empty. Not a big problem for cars but this a huge problem for electric aircrafts. Fuel weight is considerable in large aircrafts and hence electric aircrafts will be limited to sub 500 mile range in distant future.

Perhaps government should use electrified rail transport more to take trucks off the roads. Electric works very well with trains.

I still see no benefits to general consumers for using EVs. They are more expensive, resale value not guaranteed (because of battery losing capacity and newer EVs are always better), top up takes too long etc.

Alternatively introduce Tuktuk style cheap EV as personal transport which is good for popping up to town centres and range is not a problem in this segment.

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Wed 2 Jun 2021 13:18

Shock horror, EV is less 'efficient' than ICE car! - alan1302

I still see no benefits to general consumers for using EVs. They are more expensive, resale value not guaranteed (because of battery losing capacity and newer EVs are always better), top up takes too long etc.

The cost of EV's comes up a lot - yet people still buy ICE cars that are very expensive so don't think it's enough to put people off...and costs are coming down a lot more now. For most people, if they can charge at home, they would only need to charge somewhere else when on a long trip away on holiday.

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Wed 2 Jun 2021 16:51

Shock horror, EV is less 'efficient' than ICE car! - John F

Fuel weight is considerable in large aircrafts and hence electric aircrafts will be limited to sub 500 mile range in distant future.

A battery can be recharged with a laser. I'm not a science fiction fan so I'm probably not the first to envisage a system of static floating wind farms cum tracking lasers strung like a necklace along the roaring forties beaming up power in the distant future.

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Wed 2 Jun 2021 17:12

Shock horror, EV is less 'efficient' than ICE car! - skidpan

One can debate the relative costs of the various sources of energy till the cows come home, but there is no escaping the fact that EVs, especially hybrid ones, weigh around 200kg more than an equivalent ICE car, mainly because batteries weigh far more than liquid fuel tanks, and thus require more energy to move around. But the debate gets more complicated when regenerative braking is considered - how much energy is required to wear down a set of brake pads?

This was pretty much my belief until 2 weeks ago. It was based mostly on a colleagues experience with an Auris tourer hybrid, on a business trip it was no more economical than the much quicker better driving Leon 1.4 TSi I had at the time. He hated the Auris but loved the company car tax he paid (compared to his previous diesel).

So when we returned from Scotland which is a 430 mile drive with zero miles in the battery since we were unable to charge I expected to match the 1.4 TSI Superb but not to get better economy since it would be at best a "Self Charging Hybrid". The PHEV is as you say over 200kg heavier and has an auto box. The Superb 1.4 TSi averaged about 47 mpg on its first Scotland trip, the PHEV with virtually the same miles on it did 54 mpg for that return trip. The 1.4 TSI improved over the years, hopefully the PHEV will do the same.

As for regenerative "braking" it does not necessarily involve using the brakes. During those 430 miles I braked very little, after all, most of the journey is on motorways with the exception of the last 80 miles which is on the pretty decent A9. But the car reported that 14% of that trip was covered using electrical power, 60 miles. Deduct that 60 miles form the trip total and its 370 miles. We used just under 8 gallons for the return trip according to Mr Casio which would be 47 mpg for those 370 miles.

So it looks like regenerative braking does work, I am no longer a sceptic.

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Thu 3 Jun 2021 09:00

Shock horror, EV is less 'efficient' than ICE car! - oldtyke

Rare poster but frequent reader.

I can’t really comment about the efficacy or true cost relativity of EV to ICE other than to say EV is at early stage of its product cycle and therefore not near critical mass where much bigger production/sales savings are manifested( even though battery costs are substantially lower).

As a long term Hybrid owner though there are a couple of misconceptions that keep occurring related to extra weight/ comparative ICE efficiency and most effective vehicle use.

We are currently on our sixth and seventh hybrids following a long line of mainly petrols but also a few diesels.

For quick comparison we have had five Toyota RAV4s:

1st Generation 5 door petrol manual 126 bhp 1310kg weight 32mpg

2nd Generation 5 door diesel manual 114 bhp 1442kg weight 38mpg

2nd Generation 5 door petrol auto 147 bhp 1377kg weight 30mpg

3rd Generation 5 door diesel manual 134 bhp 1585kg weight 38mpg

5th Generation 5 door hybrid CVT 222bhp 1654kg weight 50mpg

Increasing battery or other material weight doesn’t necessarily mean less efficient.

Another often repeated claim is that Hybrids are most efficient as town/ urban cars.

All our cars for the last 20yrs have been used in a rural area, perhaps 5/10% in town, the latest RAV4 hybrid is achieving 50mpg on that basis plus a new Yaris hybrid achieving 65mpg.

Can’t see us moving to EV in our lifetime tbh even without considering charging infrastructure, range anxiety, dealer support etc.

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Thu 3 Jun 2021 18:37

Shock horror, EV is less 'efficient' than ICE car! - badbusdriver

As a long term Hybrid owner though there are a couple of misconceptions that keep occurring related to extra weight/ comparative ICE efficiency and most effective vehicle use.

A previous shape Toyota Yaris hybrid is lighter in weight than a Fiesta 1.0 Ecoboost auto (T/C). The current Yaris hybrid is also lighter, though not by as much, and while the current Honda Jazz is heavier than the Fiesta, it's only by around 50kg. Not too much of a penalty given how much more spacious a Jazz is than a Fiesta.

But I guess just as comparing 2 outwardly similar ICE cars can reveal a surprisingly large weight difference, so it follows that if a hybrid version of a lightweight car is made, it isn't going to be that heavy.

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Fri 4 Jun 2021 09:07

Shock horror, EV is less 'efficient' than ICE car! - skidpan

5th Generation 5 door hybrid CVT 222bhp 1654kg weight 50mpg

I drove the RAV 4 before deciding on the Superb iV last October.

Actually quite liked the car but the mirrors were huge and would have needed folding in to get the car into the garage, there was no height adjustable passenger seat (not even an option) and to get leather you needed to buy a hugely expensive top spec car.

We also found the economy fell well below our expectations. Our 1/2 hour test drive was taken in a well run in still warm car with the display showing 50% battery approx. When we got back to the the dealership the display showed 38 mpg. I did the exact same route in our previous Superb 1.4 TSi strait after the test drive and the dash (which was accurate) showed 46 mpg for the route.

When I did my calcs on a spreadsheet the 3 year cost of the RAV 4 was excellent but not quite the car for us.

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