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Tue 4 May 2021 21:00

VW CC - Advanced Driving - DiamondDes

I am a recently passed advanced driver, but I have a few concerns about the doctrines which I would like to share over time to gain the opinions of others.

The first one is :"only indicate when you can see someone else that it will benefit"

My understanding of the reasoning behind this is that:

It prevents one from indicating then absolving oneself of all responsibility thereafter
It prevents indication pollution, where everyone is indicating thus leading to confusion
It forces one to actively identify every car in the vicinity that would benefit and could become a hazard.

The problem i have with this is that I never felt that I was abdicating responsibility, merely informing other road users of my intentions. Ive never been polluted at junctions because I pick out the indications which are most relevant to me and merely make note of the others in case they become more relevant. I do try to identify every other car that could benefit , but unfortunately sometimes I miss one, or rather it emerges later on in the system.

But by far the worse thing is that after 35 years of driving I have stopped habitually indicating at every opportunity and I am now erroneously omitting to indicate at times when it would be clearly useful and safer for other drivers.

Was it really so bad to indicate at every opportunity (change in direction) on the basis someone might benefit. Particularly since now Im missing valuable opportunities to provide information.

Edited by Des Shillingford on 04/05/2021 at 21:18

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Tue 4 May 2021 22:59

VW CC - Advanced Driving - galileo

As I understand it the logic is that it demands good observation, rather than indicate without checking.

You should include pedestrians when deciding if indication is helpful, for example, when approaching a road you intend to turn into. (always, of course, being prepared for whatever the pedestrian may do)

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Tue 4 May 2021 23:21

VW CC - Advanced Driving - DiamondDes

Why cant we strive for good observation and 100% indication of intentions ?

It just strikes me that by not mandating 100% indication (unless you can clearly see it would cause confusion) is leaving too wide an opportunity for error. Ive allready admitted Im now failing to indicate when I should. The doctrine I am trying to follow is leading to less certainty of my actions to other road users. The other day as i approached a roundabout intending to turn left, I saw no one behind me and no one to my right. However I missed a vehicle patiently waiting to enter the roundabout from the same direction I was entering. Had I habitually indicated as before, he would have known my intentions (had a better clue) and moved off earlier. I am admitting to making mistakes , because i think we all make them from time to time. Having said that I seldom indicated and failed to move in that direction.

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Wed 5 May 2021 00:18

VW CC - Advanced Driving - focussed

"Ive allready admitted Im now failing to indicate when I should."

You need to up your game - the key is observation. if you are failing to indicate when you think you should you are probably failing to recognise when you should indicate.

Request an observed drive with your local advanced group's chief observer.

Ex - DSA driving instructor (car) and IAM motorcycle .

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Wed 5 May 2021 07:07

VW CC - Advanced Driving - daveyjp

Interesting you mention roundabouts.

It's a long time since I did my IAM (35 years) and things may have changed, but the advice I was given is to always indicate at roundabouts as they can be too complicated to maintain full observation at all times.

Edited by daveyjp on 05/05/2021 at 07:08

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Wed 5 May 2021 08:15

VW CC - Advanced Driving - Will deBeast

Interesting you mention roundabouts.

It's a long time since I did my IAM (35 years) and things may have changed, but the advice I was given is to always indicate at roundabouts as they can be too complicated to maintain full observation at all times.

Many (mostly older) drivers take that to extremes in my area of the country. They signal right as they enter a roundabout at which they are going straight on. Then switch to a left indication at the very last moment before exiting.

I moved here from an area which does not follow this convention - I've nearly been caught out a few times.

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Wed 5 May 2021 08:49

VW CC - Advanced Driving - focussed

"They signal right as they enter a roundabout at which they are going straight on. Then switch to a left indication at the very last moment before exiting"

That's interesting - the french are well known for doing their own version of that, (signalling left when going straight on etc), absolutely infuriating on busy roundabout.

I wonder if it's an age thing?

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Wed 5 May 2021 11:54

VW CC - Advanced Driving - Bolt

"They signal right as they enter a roundabout at which they are going straight on. Then switch to a left indication at the very last moment before exiting"

That's interesting - the french are well known for doing their own version of that, (signalling left when going straight on etc), absolutely infuriating on busy roundabout.

I wonder if it's an age thing?

No, young drivers do it as well, and more often than the older drivers, annoying tbh but then a lot of drivers take no notice of give way to the right on roundabouts, they just plough straight through in my area, just in a hurry I suspect?

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Wed 5 May 2021 10:32

VW CC - Advanced Driving - barney100

Not ageism again... gets boring.

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Wed 5 May 2021 12:12

VW CC - Advanced Driving - Engineer Andy

Interesting you mention roundabouts.

It's a long time since I did my IAM (35 years) and things may have changed, but the advice I was given is to always indicate at roundabouts as they can be too complicated to maintain full observation at all times.

Quite right - given there are so many possibilities that another vehicle or pedestrian may be using the roundabout out of your field of view at any one time, it hurts no-one and can significantly benefit others by signalling in such situations.

One of the few times I think it doesn't benefit anyone by signalling is if you are moving back into the inside after overtaking on a dual carriageway/motorway, and you're far enough ahead from the vehicle you're overtaking that they shouldn't have to take any action should you re-enter their lane again.

You would need to signal if a vehicle was rapidly approaching yours from the rear (but had room to not to need to overtake you if you are about to move left) so they don't pull out needlessly.

Essentially 'defensive driving'.

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Wed 5 May 2021 23:16

VW CC - Advanced Driving - Andrew-T

<< One of the few times I think it doesn't benefit anyone by signalling is if you are moving back into the inside after overtaking on a dual carriageway/motorway, >>

Another time is signalling right when joining from a slip road, when you have no alternative and no new info is being imparted by warning other drivers. Nearly everyone does it though. All it can mean is 'Let me in', for which it may help - or not.

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Thu 6 May 2021 08:03

VW CC - Advanced Driving - RT

<< One of the few times I think it doesn't benefit anyone by signalling is if you are moving back into the inside after overtaking on a dual carriageway/motorway, >>

Another time is signalling right when joining from a slip road, when you have no alternative and no new info is being imparted by warning other drivers. Nearly everyone does it though. All it can mean is 'Let me in', for which it may help - or not.

But it does draw attention for drivers already on the mainline who may be half awake.

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Thu 6 May 2021 09:22

VW CC - Advanced Driving - Andrew-T

<< But it does draw attention for drivers already on the mainline who may be half awake. >>

Well, maybe - if they are awake enough. For most of us it would be a more useful signal if it meant that the BMW/Merc/Audi driver was immediately heading for the fast lane :-)

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Wed 5 May 2021 20:31

VW CC - Advanced Driving - DiamondDes

Agreed thank you. I'm now going to incorporate this into my driving . That complexity so to speak is what contributed to my mistake.

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Wed 5 May 2021 07:27

VW CC - Advanced Driving - mcb100

I’m not a fan of ‘one size fits all’ solutions, so it seems to me that the answer to your predicament is to retain and continue to improve the aspects of the training with which you’re happy, and if you feel that your perceived occasional lack of indications is simply lowering your standard of driving then revert back to what you did previously.
The net result is still a positive in that your observation will be improved, and you’ll have the reassurance that you haven’t missed an opportunity to exercise the indicator stalk.

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Wed 5 May 2021 07:39

VW CC - Advanced Driving - edlithgow

Or (IOW?) just indicate anyway.

(Jeez! Are you sure it isn't Institute of Anal Motorists?)

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Wed 5 May 2021 08:52

VW CC - Advanced Driving - focussed

Or (IOW?) just indicate anyway.

(Jeez! Are you sure it isn't Institute of Anal Motorists?)

Maybe with the car IAM brigade but definitely not when I did my motorcycle advanced test, the emphasis was heavily on making progress and getting overtakes in whenever possible.

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Wed 5 May 2021 09:48

VW CC - Advanced Driving - daveyjp

Making safe progress is also key consideration for car drivers.

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Thu 6 May 2021 03:38

VW CC - Advanced Driving - edlithgow

Making safe progress is also key consideration for car drivers.

Yeh, IIRC my dad got failed for not overtaking when he could have, which put me off going in for it a bit. Being obliged to overtake seems odd, somehow, though I get that they have to be able to assess your performance in this manouvre.

I would also have had to (temporarily) suppress my coasting habit. Since I started doing this as a "reward" for passing my test, this put me off a bit more.

Daresay it would have done me good though.

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Wed 5 May 2021 20:35

VW CC - Advanced Driving - DiamondDes

Yes very welcome and wise response. Thank you.

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Wed 5 May 2021 09:22

VW CC - Advanced Driving - Andrew-T

Two other points come to mind: [1] if an indicator has not been set, it cannot be showing accidentally (if the car hasn't cancelled it); [2] indications should be unambiguous - e.g. showing a left-turn intention two junctions too soon.

I too avoid signalling if I can see no worthwhile recipient. But perhaps we should not start discussing headlamp flashing - that is a can of worms in traffic.

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Wed 5 May 2021 09:51

VW CC - Advanced Driving - Sofa Spud

I always indicate, out of habit. I'm pretty sure that's what the guidance was when I did my HGV training many years ago.

One danger from headlamp flashing is that "I'm letting you go in front of me'" can be mistaken by the other driver as meaning "it is clear for you to pull out".

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Wed 5 May 2021 13:47

VW CC - Advanced Driving - Andrew-T

One danger from headlamp flashing is that "I'm letting you go in front of me'" can be mistaken by the other driver as meaning "it is clear for you to pull out".

The main danger from a headlamp flash is that it may be acted upon by several drivers, probably in conflicting movements. At least an indicator cannot usually be misinterpreted.

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Wed 5 May 2021 10:27

VW CC - Advanced Driving - barney100

I was told don't indicate to the sheep in the fields. I indicate when it would benefit other road users but if there are non about what's the point?

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Wed 5 May 2021 10:54

VW CC - Advanced Driving - Terry W

The principle that one should only indicate if there is someone to see it seems sound. But it assumes that you consistently observe your surroundings and act accordingly.

This could be a flawed assumption . It may be better to indicate irrespective of whether other road users can see it - that way it is unlikely you would fail to indicate when you should.

Even advanced drivers are not infallible!!

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Wed 5 May 2021 11:50

VW CC - Advanced Driving - Cris_on_the_gas

The fundamental difference is for the DSA test we are taught Mirror, Signal, Manoeuvre. Whereas Advanced Driving/Riding uses Police Roadcraft IPSGA . (information, Position, Speed, Gear, Acceleration). Within Information which runs through all the others comes 3 parts, Take, Use, Give.

The argument is that you are supposed to take in information and decide if another road user would benefit from a signal. As stated it does check that Observation has been done. Would you go into an empty room and say Hello !

When doing my IAM/RoSPA tests on cars and bikes the examiner would say that you will not be criticised for giving a signal. However blantantly signalling by habit was discouraged. It shows that you have not applied IPSGA and would result in a lower pass.

Although the system of Advanced Driving/Riding is based on Police Roadcraft and has been well proven to reduce the risk of crashing but is not perfect. That is why like the Highway code it is continuously updated to reflect changing traffic conditions.

Despite what many believe there is no such thing as a perfect driver/rider or a perfect drive/ride. However by using advanced techniques this does help to reduce risk and make driving/riding more enjoyable. The use of signals is a very small part of advanced driving but does show that the driving/riding is being done systematically.

I remember my IAM observer telling me the best interpretation of another road users signal is that the bulbs working !

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Wed 5 May 2021 12:13

VW CC - Advanced Driving - mcb100

I've not seen a copy of Roadcraft since 1983, so I'm a bit out of touch(!), but is there still an insistence on pull/push steering?

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Wed 5 May 2021 13:14

VW CC - Advanced Driving - daveyjp

Push pull isn't a requirement to pass your basic driving test. Power steering on everything means it no longer serves the purpose it once did.

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Wed 5 May 2021 13:52

VW CC - Advanced Driving - mcb100

Still being taught by ADI's, unfortunately. I accompany my daughter most days on L plates in the run up to her test and wince at the pull/push but I'm reluctant to interfere and potentially cause confusion before she has an examiner alongside.

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Wed 5 May 2021 13:59

VW CC - Advanced Driving - Trilogy.

I passed my IAM test in 1990 - definitely worthwhile. Not all who pass agree with all the methods. I still indicate sometimes when there's no one to tell, but do my best not to do so. Increased observation, road positioning, courtesy and planning ahead were the greatest assets I took away from the system.

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Wed 5 May 2021 13:54

VW CC - Advanced Driving - Andrew-T

I remember my IAM observer telling me the best interpretation of another road users signal is that the bulbs working !

The trickiest 'signal' is the absence of one, followed by an unexpected turn to left or right.

Quite a few drivers follow the routine Mirror (maybe - can't tell) - Manoeuvre - Oh, Signal, sorry! But if traffic permits, many drivers take (small) roundabouts too fast to make useful signals either way.

Edited by Andrew-T on 05/05/2021 at 13:55

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Wed 5 May 2021 14:44

VW CC - Advanced Driving - John F

I too was taught in 1967 to only indicate if there was someone there to see it. I suppose in those days the light bulbs didn't last as long. As for roundabouts, my pet hate is cars exiting with the right indicator still flashing - especially annoying for breathless cyclists like me entering said roundabout who have to needlessly brake.

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Thu 6 May 2021 00:05

VW CC - Advanced Driving - edlithgow

I don't always indicate if I don't think its likely to be useful, mostly because I''ve had to replace one set of column switches and may not be able to get another one.

That is a real world concern.

Obsessing about the correct application of The Official Secrets Act to my driving intentions, "Need To Know, 007" stylee, usually isn't, unless I'm being followed by SMERSH thugs, in which case I'd probably be driving the Aston Martin.

Maybe Institute of Absurd Motorists?

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Thu 6 May 2021 09:18

VW CC - Advanced Driving - wantstolearn

I passed advanced in 2005. It was definitely worthwhile. However I always signal my intentions. That way you don't miss signalling when it might be needed.

Obviously followed criteria till passed. Then reverted to what I believe to be safer.

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