Successful affordable sports cars - why did we fall by the wayside?

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Tue 4 May 2021 16:13
Successful affordable sports cars - why did we fall by the wayside? - John F

What a lost opportunity these past few decades have been for our car makers. The successful MGB sold almost 400,000, but the TR6 fewer than 100,000 and the TR7 only a few more than that. (I'm not counting the toy 'Spridgets'.) Then.....zilch. Enter the Toyota MR2 - well over 400,000, then the Mazda MX5, well past a million now. Where did we go wrong?

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Tue 4 May 2021 16:30
Successful affordable sports cars - why did we fall by the wayside? - misar

The Japanese took the classic British formula of small, relatively affordable and fun two seater drop tops and applied it to modern, reliable cars. The Brits either carried on selling the same old unreliable models or put their limited resources into increasingly exotic non-affordable (and still unreliable) new sports cars.

This is covered at length in some of the classic Top Gear episodes and one of James May's "Cars of the People".

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Tue 4 May 2021 16:35
Successful affordable sports cars - why did we fall by the wayside? - elekie&a/c doctor
The original Mazda mx5 prototype was developed in the UK . British manufacturers said it would “never catch on” . Sad really .
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Tue 4 May 2021 16:37
Successful affordable sports cars - why did we fall by the wayside? - _

Where did we go wrong?

When the bean counters were running the show, it all folded up.

BL and successors used already available mechanical components with a few quirks thrown in

If the MBG V8 had become the RV8 earlier, might have lasted longer ..

Or MGR with a KV6 would have been super with 190 horses pulling it along,

Or even a Mustang engined MG?

All down to chasing cheap vlume, yet Mazda and Toyota have both made a go of it.

See what Saic/MG motors china are about to unveil, and it'll look good too.

Edited by _ORB_ on 04/05/2021 at 16:40

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Tue 4 May 2021 16:50
Successful affordable sports cars - why did we fall by the wayside? - pd

Well, we did have the MGF/TF.

It is actually sadly very difficult to make money on these cars and they seem to go in and out of fashion. At the moment they seem out of fashion.

There is really only the MX-5 left and they could only do that by pooling resources with FIAT. The MR2 is no more, even the SLK as was is gone.

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Thu 6 May 2021 11:30
Successful affordable sports cars - why did we fall by the wayside? - barney100

Well, we did have the MGF/TF.

The SLK as I had has morphed into the SLC which looks remarkably like my 2012 SLK looked.

There is really only the MX-5 left and they could only do that by pooling resources with FIAT. The MR2 is no more, even the SLK as was is gone.

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Thu 6 May 2021 12:14
Successful affordable sports cars - why did we fall by the wayside? - Andrew-T

Barney, did you intend to add something ? :-)

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Thu 6 May 2021 14:49
Successful affordable sports cars - why did we fall by the wayside? - Engineer Andy

Barney, did you intend to add something ? :-)

So you spotted the deliberate nistake? :-)

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Tue 4 May 2021 18:00
Successful affordable sports cars - why did we fall by the wayside? - SLO76
As with all things BL they simply didn’t invest or even try to compete. Why bother when there’s another tax payer bailout to be had? The MGB was a good car in the 60’s but by the late 70’s it was desperately dated and there was no replacement on the drawing board.

Imagine where we could’ve been today had we left our UK manufacturers independent instead of under the boot of the unions and government ministers. Left in competition with each other they would’ve been forced to come up with new and competitive products that would’ve driven them forward with possibly a little tax payer assistance to start with rather than the disastrous money pit that was BL.

Car firms should never be controlled by trade unions or politicians, neither of whom know the first thing about running a successful car manufacturer. Nationalisation was a disaster and the lack of investment over the lifespan of the MGB for example compared to Mazda’s MX5 shows it up. The MX5 sells because it deserves to, Britain’s sports cars died because they also deserved to. I do not mourn them.

Edited by SLO76 on 04/05/2021 at 18:01

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Tue 4 May 2021 18:04
Successful affordable sports cars - why did we fall by the wayside? - elekie&a/c doctor
I recently owned a 2005 Mgtf . It drove really well like a go kart . But the build quality was like a 1980s Montego . The interior trim fit was like a C and A suit .
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Wed 5 May 2021 12:03
Successful affordable sports cars - why did we fall by the wayside? - Engineer Andy
I recently owned a 2005 Mgtf . It drove really well like a go kart . But the build quality was like a 1980s Montego . The interior trim fit was like a C and A suit .

My best mate used to own a late model MGTF, but it wasn't reliable nor that well made, and so he PXed it a couple of years after buying it new...for an MX-5. Now on his second one, which is so easy to look after that he maintains it himself (and he's no mechanic).

I've been driven in both and the both handled great and went like the clappers - or at least seemed to, because you were sat so low in the car, rather like a go-kart. Not the most comfortable, even for me at only 5' 10".

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Tue 4 May 2021 18:06
Successful affordable sports cars - why did we fall by the wayside? - Bromptonaut
Imagine where we could’ve been today had we left our UK manufacturers independent instead of under the boot of the unions and government ministers. Left in competition with each other they would’ve been forced to come up with new and competitive products that would’ve driven them forward with possibly a little tax payer assistance to start with rather than the disastrous money pit that was BL.

They were nationalised to save them from Bankruptcy. That they got to that stage and that the unions (arguably) had too big a role in the constituent parts of BMC was entirely down to complacent private sector management.

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Tue 4 May 2021 19:07
Successful affordable sports cars - why did we fall by the wayside? - Terry W

Debating whether it was the unions, management or government that lead to the demise of the UK is academic now. Each had a part to play and together all were woeful.

The very simple fact is that the UK cars (including convertibles) were often well designed at launch, but never updated properly, and built with scant regard for quality and reliability.

So the UK car industry went the way of the mootorcycles a decade or two earlier for much the same reasons.

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Tue 4 May 2021 19:10
Successful affordable sports cars - why did we fall by the wayside? - nick62
Imagine where we could’ve been today had we left our UK manufacturers independent instead of under the boot of the unions and government ministers. Left in competition with each other they would’ve been forced to come up with new and competitive products that would’ve driven them forward with possibly a little tax payer assistance to start with rather than the disastrous money pit that was BL.

They were nationalised to save them from Bankruptcy. That they got to that stage and that the unions (arguably) had too big a role in the constituent parts of BMC was entirely down to complacent private sector management.

Thanks for saving me the time Bromp.

British industry has always had this problem. Management more interested in peerages than managing the company.

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Tue 4 May 2021 19:25
Successful affordable sports cars - why did we fall by the wayside? - Sofa Spud
Imagine where we could’ve been today had we left our UK manufacturers independent instead of under the boot of the unions and government ministers. Left in competition with each other they would’ve been forced to come up with new and competitive products that would’ve driven them forward with possibly a little tax payer assistance to start with rather than the disastrous money pit that was BL.

They were nationalised to save them from Bankruptcy. That they got to that stage and that the unions (arguably) had too big a role in the constituent parts of BMC was entirely down to complacent private sector management.

Thanks for saving me the time Bromp.

British industry has always had this problem. Management more interested in peerages than managing the company.

. . . Management more interested in peerages, selling the company to a foreign buyer or how much the company's land is worth for property development. Or maybe even seeing how long they can go on milking the cash cow without investing in its future.

Edited by Sofa Spud on 04/05/2021 at 19:27

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Tue 4 May 2021 19:48
Successful affordable sports cars - why did we fall by the wayside? - nick62

Exactly SS, in contrast to German industry where companies are still very much family owned and therefore not constrained by institutional shareholders. Miele being a very good example for instance, top quality kit that lasts a lifetime.

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Thu 6 May 2021 14:54
Successful affordable sports cars - why did we fall by the wayside? - Engineer Andy

Exactly SS, in contrast to German industry where companies are still very much family owned and therefore not constrained by institutional shareholders. Miele being a very good example for instance, top quality kit that lasts a lifetime.

Not just that, but British (and American) firms are far more likely to be headed up by financial people than those with a technical background in the product they make.

Those British firms that DO succeed tend to be ones that follow the latter management route, even if some on the board are accountants, etc. Firms need s mix of people from both a technical, finance and sales/marketing background to do well.

I've worked for a couple of the larger engineering consultancies where the CEO wasn't an engineer. This staggered me, given how would they know the sector the company operates in?

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Tue 4 May 2021 20:00
Successful affordable sports cars - why did we fall by the wayside? - SLO76
“ They were nationalised to save them from Bankruptcy. That they got to that stage and that the unions (arguably) had too big a role in the constituent parts of BMC was entirely down to complacent private sector management.”


No denying management were p*** poor too but looking at the pre BL ranges of each and there was far greater effort made. Once competition was slashed via nationalisation the standards fell. My point is that the money should’ve been spent to shore up them as independent firms rather than ruin them by merging them then handing control to the state and the big trade unions.

Without competition you get poor product and service and without fear of bankruptcy and failure firms and staff are not effectively energised to succeed. Nationalisation never works in the long run although it has its place as a necessary evil where effective competition cannot be brought to bear such as the rail network and possibly the buses too where monopolies tend to be the norm.

I believe that the failure of the mass produced British owned car industry was a catalogue of failures involving shortsighted management who looked only to this years balance sheet, greedy intractable trade unions and political interference. I strongly believe that they should’ve been saved but left as they were as independent firms and that had they been left to their own devices post bailout then more may have survived.


Edited by SLO76 on 04/05/2021 at 20:04

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Tue 4 May 2021 20:37
Successful affordable sports cars - why did we fall by the wayside? - badbusdriver

Or even a Mustang engined MG?

Such a thing did actually exist for a while ORB, the XPower SV. It was a kind of hand me down project, which started as a DeTomaso, then became a Qvale, then was made into an MG. But it did use a contemporary Mustang V8, and there are two for sale on Autotrader right now. Good looking machine, but you wouldn't have called it affordable when new, and because they are so rare, used ones are no bargain either.

202103029639172

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Tue 4 May 2021 20:41
Successful affordable sports cars - why did we fall by the wayside? - Bromptonaut
No denying management were p*** poor too but looking at the pre BL ranges of each and there was far greater effort made. Once competition was slashed via nationalisation the standards fell.

BL was nationalised in 1975 after the government encouraged merger between the ailing and failing BMC and Leyland Motors failed to deliver the anticipated gains.

In what way were the brands within BMC either competitive or making an effort?

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Tue 4 May 2021 21:46
Successful affordable sports cars - why did we fall by the wayside? - SLO76
“ In what way were the brands within BMC either competitive or making an effort?”

The cars they produced prior to nationalisation were simply better. Better designed, better made and more competitive. Triumph and Rover are perhaps the best examples of it but I far prefer their efforts pre 75.
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Tue 4 May 2021 21:45
Successful affordable sports cars - why did we fall by the wayside? - Xileno

I always thought the MGF was a car that was so nearly right, I remember seeing it at Earl's Court in 1995. Rover did really well given the pocket-money budget they had, there was some elaborate parts bin raiding, using a Metro floorpan in reverse I seem to remember. But would anyone have known or even cared? The problem was the fragile engine, everyone I met had problems with the cooling system and head gasket. If I had a bigger garage I might even be tempted by one as a restoration project, I am sure they are one car that will appreciate once most have disappeared. There's one parked about a mile away that is looking a bit dog-eared but not beyond saving with a bit of TLC.

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Wed 5 May 2021 11:47
Successful affordable sports cars - why did we fall by the wayside? - Terry W

Failure of UK owned car making has its roots back in the 1950s. In some ways it was the victim of its own success pre-war and the existence of numerous independent brands.

Leaving aside commercial vehicles, car brands included Austin, Morris, Rover, Jaguar, Wolsely, Riley, Triumph, Vanden Plas, Alvis, MG, Land Rover, Standard, (+ probably some others now forgotten)

Government and management failed to recognise (or at least act on) the need for a coherent strategy, over the years from 1952 until 1967 when I think Rover were the last to join the "consortium". In large part they perpetuated separate designs, factories, unique components, dealer networks etc.

This had significant cost and often competed for business - self destructive.

The late 1950s and 1960s were a period of low unemployment, high growth and a lack of skilled workers. This allowed the unions to dominate. IMHO they abused this power and hastened the end of UK owned car making - but it may anyway have foundered.

What should have happened - probably 3 or 4 clearly differentiated brands:

  • utility vehicles which by now may have been 4x4
  • luxury combining Triumph, Rover, Jaguar now competing with BMW, Audi
  • consumer combining Austin, Morris, Riley, Wolseley etc
  • sporting combining elements of MG, TR**, Jaguar etc

All somewhat academic as we now have a vibrant foreign owned car industry (subject to Brexit fallout and EV technologies)

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