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You really can't compare a BMW 4 series (it's a 3 series in a different bodyshell) to an A8, or even an A6 - those are the BMW 7 or 5 series equivalent.
The 5 series / A6 is the equivalent of the Jag XF.
The last generation of BMW 5 series has just gone out of production (so prices for late examples of the 'old' model have just dropped through the floor). Plenty of the Alphabet (BMW employee short-term lease) cars coming onto the market at 6-12 months old, with up to 12k miles on the clock, at extraordinary discounts to original list prices.
£25k would probably buy you a nice 2015/2016 530d, or possibly even a 535d, with nice spec. Avoid MSport hard suspension and the stupidly big wheels (ideally go for Luxury spec), and you've got something that you can do 500 miles a day in, and still get out of feeling as fresh as a daisy. The 530d with the 8-speed auto will return a real 50+mpg on a long run too (I speak from experience).
Here you go ... usedcars.bmw.co.uk/5-Series/3.0TD-530d-Luxury-258-..._
As to the 7 series ... I must admit, I just think they're so huge as to be unwieldy. Minimal extra comfort levels, but a bit of a bloat-barge. Parking one of those must be a nightmare.
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Thanks Rob.
Yep - agreed the 4 series isn't the equivalent of the XF.
I originally started my search for a car by looking at 3 / 4 series and A3 size cars as in reality I don't need a bigger car. However, when I look at how much money a luxury barge costs in comparison to 'lesser' cars it got me thinking that maybe looking at larger cars wasn't such a bad idea. That and the fact the best car I've driven was the XF which was both comfortable and quick.
I'll consider the 5 series as it should be a good choice for many reasons.
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If you can stand what they've done to the looks of their cars (i can't but one man's meat etc), you could do worse than a Lexus hybrid.
Stand to be corrected but don't Lexus share Toyota's 5 year warranty, with possibly longer on the battery/hybrid drive, and second to none customer care in the event of after warranty failure.
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Thanks GB but like you I don't like the look of the thing.
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I wouldn't write off a Mercedes based on your experience with b class and slk. Not sure at moment what your budget will get you into, but as someone who reads much more motoring magazines than is healthy, one thing I can tell you is that the Mercedes ride comfort these days is likely to be second only to the Jaguar. Have a test drive of a couple of potential candidates, ideally without humongous wheels, before deciding.
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Try parking an A8 in any multi storey car park.. and you will soon become more sensible:-)
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Try parking an A8 in any multi storey car park.. and you will soon become more sensible:-)
Good point! Luckily I have a Polo for stuff like that....
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I wouldn't write off a Mercedes based on your experience with b class and slk. Not sure at moment what your budget will get you into, but as someone who reads much more motoring magazines than is healthy, one thing I can tell you is that the Mercedes ride comfort these days is likely to be second only to the Jaguar. Have a test drive of a couple of potential candidates, ideally without humongous wheels, before deciding.
Exactly what I was going to write bbd until my laptop decided to perform a Windows update.
Yep, have a look at an E Class preferably with a 6 cylinder diesel engine.
Won't be quite up there handling wise compared to a 5 series, but it will ride like a limousine - along as you avoid huge wheels. Even an AMG Sport spec will ride well as long as some fool hasn't put 20" wheels on it.
Beautiful interiors too.
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If comfort is a priority, how about a volvo S90?. A matter of personal opinion I know, but I think the big volvo is the most handsome saloon car around at the moment. Only 2.0 engines in either petrol or diesel though no petrol versions currently available on Autotrader. The lower powered diesel has 190bhp, has ample torque (400nm), and according to the honest John review, it's performance is barely any different than the higher powered (235bhp) version. They haven't been around for long yet (2016>), so nothing available under £25k, but there are a few under £30k just now, and that number will presumably increase by the end of the year. In addition to good looks it has a lovely soothing Scandinavian minimalist cabin, with huge amounts of space and exceptionally comfortable seats!.
Plus, it isn't an Audi, BMW, or Mercedes, which is obviously a bonus!
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Thanks - I'll have a gander.
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£24558 will get you a brand new Skoda Superb SE-L executive 190 PS hatch manual. If you must have an auto its another £1200.
The 2.0 TSi SE-L executive petrol with 220 PS and a DSG is cheaper at £24203. No DPF worries if your usage changes.
All Carfile prices.
No worries about repairs for the next 3 years (or longer if you buy the extended warranty).
Why buy someones old potentially troublesome exec when you can get a brand new one for less. And when you are in the Superb I can assure you its a very nice place to be and ours is only the SE.
Edited by skidpan on 17/07/2017 at 19:10
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Thanks Skidpan. I know you're a fan of these and I'm certainly not dismissing them but for me there are a couple of boxes not being ticked by your suggestions.
I'd really like a big motor - 3.0L. I know that 220 PS is more than enough and for me it's certainly not about speed (those days are long gone). More about the lazy power of a V6.
I'm not a badge snob by any means and I have looked at Skoda in the past but I'm not convinced that a Skoda offers the same level of "luxury" as some of the brands mentinoned above. I'm not knocking Skoda in anyway - I genunely think they are great cars.
Finally, there's something satisfying about owning a car that originally cost £40k or more and buying it for a fraction of the price, where the first owner takes the big hit in depretiation. I'm wise enough (just about) to realise these cars will be expensive to fix if anything goes wrong and lucky enough that I have the means to sort the issue out if any arises.
As I have the luxury of 7 or 8 months before I need to make a decision I have plenty of time to consider my options and it may well turn out to be a dream on my part anyway.
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I'd really like a big motor - 3.0L. I know that 220 PS is more than enough and for me it's certainly not about speed (those days are long gone). More about the lazy power of a V6.
A modern turbo petrol such as the VAG TSi's will actually have a much more lazy power output than a normally aspirated V6 or even a turbo diesel V6. Check the the figures and you will see what a huge spread of power the TSI's have. My 1.4 TSi is lazy, the 2.0 TSi must but spectacular.
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Check the the figures and you will see what a huge spread of power the TSI's have. My 1.4 TSi is lazy, the 2.0 TSi must but spectacular.
Just looked at the brochure. the 2.0 TSi has 350 nm of torque all the way from 1500 to 4400 rpm. The Audi V6 TDi does have a lot more torque (580 nm) but it peaks at 1750 rpm and in my recent experiences such huge slugs of torque do not make a pleasant driving experience.
Take a test drive, what have you got to loose.
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Just looked at the brochure. the 2.0 TSi has 350 nm of torque all the way from 1500 to 4400 rpm. The Audi V6 TDi does have a lot more torque (580 nm) but it peaks at 1750 rpm and in my recent experiences such huge slugs of torque do not make a pleasant driving experience.
Take a test drive, what have you got to loose.
A very selective reading of the torque curve on the diesel. It might peak at 1750, but it is virtually flat from 1200 to 3300, and still has c 425Nm at 4300rpm.
www.automobile-catalog.com/curve/2015/2095625/audi...l
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Check the the figures and you will see what a huge spread of power the TSI's have. My 1.4 TSi is lazy, the 2.0 TSi must but spectacular.
Just looked at the brochure. the 2.0 TSi has 350 nm of torque all the way from 1500 to 4400 rpm. The Audi V6 TDi does have a lot more torque (580 nm) but it peaks at 1750 rpm and in my recent experiences such huge slugs of torque do not make a pleasant driving experience.
Take a test drive, what have you got to loose.
Too much torque isn't pleasant - how can that be true, it's so easy to get less torque by using less throttle - but not easy to get more if you need it.
Remember that all modern turbo engines, petrol or diesel, have flat torque curves as they're electronically limited across a wide range - and diesels need to be higher geared than petrols to suit their power/torque at lower rpm.
I have the VW equivalent of the Audi V6 TDi in my Touareg, with 580 Nm from 1750-2500, never needing to go above 2,500 in normal use - just 350 Nm would mean the engine working hard at relatively high rpm much more of the time, and far less pleasant.
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Too much torque isn't pleasant - how can that be true,
We had one front wheel drive turbo diesel hatch with "only" 326 nm of torque and it was an absolute pain in first gear. No traction control was fitted and probably no torque limiter and setting off from lights even on a dry road was an absolute pain, totally embarasing when the small petrol htch at the side of us with a fraction of the torque and power pulls away while our wheels were scrabbling for grip. Once you were in second and higher it was great but you were playing catch up by then.
just 350 Nm would mean the engine working hard at relatively high rpm much more of the time, and far less pleasant.
Well I think you need to drive a TSi before suggesting that you need drive it hard at relativly high revs, its simply not true. Even my 1.4 TSi with a "measly" 250 nm between 1500 and 3500 does not need to be driven hard and rareley needs extending beyond 4000 rpm.
If you want an engine that needs working hard and reving try one of the N/A petrols from Honda, Mazda and Toyota that are so loved by members of this forum. They need loads of revs and right pedal to make good progress.
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Are all the A8 s made of aluminiun and hence are light weight and never rust, but are expensive to repair.
Understand that the 3 litre tdi alaong with the 1.9 pd tdi were the best engines ever produced by VW.
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Are all the A8 s made of aluminiun and hence are light weight and never rust, but are expensive to repair.
Aluminium cars don't rust but they still corrode. In salty environments they fizz quite happilly. I have one in the garage, its 25 years old in October and its 100% corrosion free but it never gets used in salty conditions and the garage is dehumidified.
As for cost of repair I cannot see any reason for it being more expensive but aluminium welding is a more specialist process than steel and special nasty etch primers are required to prevent the paint falling off in sheets.
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Too much torque isn't pleasant - how can that be true,
We had one front wheel drive turbo diesel hatch with "only" 326 nm of torque and it was an absolute pain in first gear. No traction control was fitted and probably no torque limiter and setting off from lights even on a dry road was an absolute pain, totally embarasing when the small petrol htch at the side of us with a fraction of the torque and power pulls away while our wheels were scrabbling for grip. Once you were in second and higher it was great but you were playing catch up by then.
just 350 Nm would mean the engine working hard at relatively high rpm much more of the time, and far less pleasant.
Well I think you need to drive a TSi before suggesting that you need drive it hard at relativly high revs, its simply not true. Even my 1.4 TSi with a "measly" 250 nm between 1500 and 3500 does not need to be driven hard and rareley needs extending beyond 4000 rpm.
If you want an engine that needs working hard and reving try one of the N/A petrols from Honda, Mazda and Toyota that are so loved by members of this forum. They need loads of revs and right pedal to make good progress.
Neither the A8 or my Touareg are 2wd so high torque through the front axle isn't an issue.
"Rarely needs extending beyond 4,400 rpm" - that in itself isn't leisurely or relaxed - my petrol Subaru needed 4,500 rpm for maximum torque and would rev smoothly up to nearly 7,000 rpm - but relaxing it wasn't!
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Neither the A8 or my Touareg are 2wd so high torque through the front axle isn't an issue.
I have no need or desire to have a 4WD drive car. When I was racing I managed for 12 years towing with a front wheel drive hatch (like most competitors did) but now the paddock if full of inapproriate trucks just for show. Come winter we stick on a set of rims with good winter tyres so are able to keep mobile (providing the roads are not clogged with cars (including 4WD ones) stuck on baldish summer tyres.
"Rarely needs extending beyond 4,400 rpm" - that in itself isn't leisurely or relaxed - my petrol Subaru needed 4,500 rpm for maximum torque and would rev smoothly up to nearly 7,000 rpm - but relaxing it wasn't!
Had a Puma with virtually the same engine charisteristics as that. Great on the right day on the right road but on most days I longed for a turbo diesel. Now I can drive a turbo petrol with virtually the same low down grunt as a diesel but a much wider rev band should I choose to use it I will probably drive no other type of car.
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I have a Skoda Superb Estate Petrol 1.4 TSI 150 DSG.
I swapped from a 2013 Euro 5 Passat Estate 2.0 TDI DSG, (not emissions modified).
I was very doubful about the small engine, but on my test drive before purchase, I could detect no big difference in use.
I have just returned from 3,000 miles European trip in 4 weeks, mainly in Germany on autobahns. I had no problem keeping up and mostly the Skoda was operating at similar revs to the Passat (which I had also driven in Germany).
Because it is automatic, you do not notice lower torque, if needed (rarely) it just changes gear, perhaps on a steep hill (and you barely notice that).
Consumption is around 45 mpg, not much lower than the Passat.
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Just a quick update.
Rob's suggest to look at BMW's got me thinking. The 330d looks incredible value for money 2nd hand. I can see plenty of 2016 cars at aroundf the £23k mark - all with around 10k to 15k miles. That seems a massive drop from the new price in just over a year.
Am I missing something? Are these cars good or not - why so much depreciation?
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I assume you meant 530d, rather than 330d ?
Quite simply, BMW have been heavily discounting for quite a few years now. The current 3 series is available with about 20% off list brand new factory order, and at the end of production the 2010-2016 5 series was available about 23-25% off list (I know that for a certainty because I was very close to ordering one). The discounts on the 'new' 5 series are currently quite small (10% or so), but it's only been out for 4-5 months.
And those discounts feed through into the used car market. If you could buy a brand-new £40k list price 530d for close to £30k, then if you want to sell one that's a year or 2 old, you're going to have to discount compared to the price you can buy the new one for, not what the list price is/was.
I was within a whisker of swapping the 325d touring for a 530d Lux touring a few months ago. Only thing that eventually killed the deal was the knowledge of how much the 5 was going to lose in the next 12-18 months. I may well re-visit the situation in 12 months from now - my car will be 5 years old by then.
In terms of buying a 5 series, the usual things apply - ignore the 'official' service interval, and get intermediate oil changes done (official is roughly every 18k miles, get it done every 9k miles). The ZF 8 speed torque-converter autobox is very reliable and economical. The rear suspension airbags can fail, and can be very expensive to replace (though they are under the standard warranty, which can be extended annually at quite a reasonable cost, in my opinion). Electronics seem very good - the iDrive system is really intuitive, I find. Get one with the big-screen 'Pro Nav' if you can, far better than 'business' or 'business plus' nav.
The 'beast' of the range is the 535d. Rarer, usually highly specced (low spec ones are very difficult to sell, and tend to sit around on dealer forecourts for a long time), and an absolute flying machine. 0-60 is 5.3 seconds, not hugely faster than the 5.8 of the 530d though. Similar fuel economy on a run.
Either the 530d or 535d will average 50mpg on a decent motorway trip with 75 on the cruise control. Local driving will be more like 35mpg though - and, if you use that power a fair bit, possibly more like 30mpg.
Tyres are expensive (big wide runflats) fronts will probably last 30k, rears more like 15k. Worth looking at carefully to use as a negotiating tool on a car with 10-15k miles on it, as it might need new backs relatively soon.
Finally, it might be worth test-driving the 520d. With that ZF autobox, it's still no slouch, but it does have to be said it lacks the refinement of the 30d unit. No escaping the fact that it's a diesel !
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Thanks Rob - I did mean the 330d as the 5 series is bigger than I need really.
Whilst the 320 is probably more than ample I just hanker after a bigger engined car.
I suppose this gets down to the gist of what I'm looking for. A fiarly new car (2 or less years old) with a large engine, comfortable and quickish. Oh, and all for less than £25k.
The 330d ticks most of those boxes for me. I did consider the E class coupe but having had a couple of Mercs in the past I'd just like a change. Not had a BMW before so that counts in it's favour.
I'd only consider a car with 18" wheels and if possible without 'sports' suspension. Sadly most 2nd hand BMWs seem to have this selected as standard (I know you can order new without if need be) so the search may take a while to throw up a suitable car. As I said before I'm in no rush and I'm going to leave it until the end of the year before making a real effort to look.
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The 3 series is a lot smaller than the 5 series. You really do notice the difference in cabin comfort and even in noise insulation.
My only gripe with the 3 series (and I've had my 325d 3 1/2 years now) is rear legroom. Also, the transmission tunnel in the centre takes up a lot of space. Put 3 big blokes in the back, and they're a bit like sardines !
But I still love driving it. It can be civilised and just knock out 450 miles in a day, or I can put it on the twisty roads and chuck it about like a hooligan.
In terms of suspension, the standard MSport suspension is not that bad. I had a 320d saloon as a loan car a few months ago which was on 18" wheels with MSport suspension, and it didn't feel too crashy. The adaptive suspension is a lot better and smoother - my car has it, and even with the 19" wheels it isn't at all bad. BMW have thankfully gone away from the ridiculously horrible hard suspension they were fitting to cars a few years ago.
Even when I got mine in December 2013 (so they were quite new out) discounts were decent. My car was an ex-Press BMW GB car. 3k miles, 6 months old. The list price was a frankly insane £43.5k (it has virtually every extra fitted). It cost me £29k.
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We usually get some snow in winter.RWD cars - such as Mercedes either have plonkers as drivers, too much power or unsuitable tyres as they appear undriveable by the majoirty of drivers in snow.. (Not that FWD cars are a lot better but at least with care you can start off:-)
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We usually get some snow in winter.RWD cars - such as Mercedes either have plonkers as drivers, too much power or unsuitable tyres as they appear undriveable by the majoirty of drivers in snow.. (Not that FWD cars are a lot better but at least with care you can start off:-)
Agreed. I've got a set of winter wheels and tyres for the 3 series, and they make a huge difference. Pirelli Sottozero tyres, I seem to recall. They go on in November, and they stay on until early April.
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