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Litter fine - Ben 10
Hi

Hope someone can advise.
Daughter was on way to work this morning and was approached by a council litter officer and issued a fine for dropping litter.
My daughter says that she had pulled her phone out of her coat pocket and unaware a receipt was dragged out with it which dropped to the floor behind her. As there were strong winds this morning, the winds blew the paper away without her noticing.
This officer approached her and issued a fine.
Where does she stand as she is has been brought up not to litter and she feels that a genuine mistake was made.
Is there an redress as with parking notices or is it only contestable in court?

Regards in anticipation of any replies.

Edited by Ben 10 on 20/11/2016 at 16:12

Litter fine - RT

The appeal process (if there is one) should be outlined on the Fixed Penalty Notice - otherwise I guess it's a matter of not paying and fighting the case when taken to court over non-payment.

www.gov.uk/guidance/fixed-penalty-notices-issuing-...s

Litter fine - Bromptonaut

Does the FPN state the specific legislation the litter officer believes your daughter contravened? How much is the fine if paid promptly?

If dropping needs to be wilfull she may have defence. OTOH if faiure to take care not to drop she may be on s stickier wicket or in realms of mitigation.

Probably worth writing to the Council stating circs etc and suggesting officer might reasonably have exercised discretion and will council consider withdrawing notice in all circs. I'd put it in those terms rather than bandying around word like petty or jobsworth (however tempting).

Whether it's worth time off work and faff of appearing in court with prospect of what may count as a criminal conviction is another question.

Litter fine - Palcouk

This type of Offence/ticket is not dealt with the same way as a motoring ticket. There is no tribunal process, the appeal has to be made in writting to the issueing authority - the procedure should be shown on any ticket.

One ground for appeal, which may be relevent in the circumstances outlined being;

You didn't know an offence had been committed – the test would be whether a reasonable person would have known what had happened

Litter fine - Ben 10
She got in last night and described how intimidating it was especially in front of passing shoppers.

Apparently there were 2 of them dressed in black like a pair of SAS soldiers without the gas masks. They approached her and one cautioned her. They then demanded ID. As she was so taken aback she showed them her driving licence. I thought that this power was over the top in the circumstances.

He said he saw her drop a sweet wrapper as she walked along. She tells me she was unaware until this guy called after her and stopped her. She said the wrapper was in her pocket from a previous week as she couldn't find a bin to put it in and forgot about it. As she walked along she pulled the phone from her coat pocket which she now thinks pulled the wrapper with it. It was the wrapper caught by the wind he saw drop to the ground.

What is startling is that he didn't offer any form of evidence. Like body cam or CCTV footage. It was their decision alone that she committed an offence. If this is a legal matter then what happened to innnovent to proven guilty.

As as Brompt said, if she doesn't pay the fine within 14 days, it could go to court with a 2500 pound fine and a criminal record. As above apart from contacting the company that issues the fines there is no redress.

What astonishes me is that if I walk past these guys in the street and they decide to stop and say I dropped a piece of rubbish, even though I didn't, there is very little I can do to prove them as liars. This is a private company working on behalf of 2 London boroughs.

It is shocking that they can get away with such stuff under new guidelines. If she had discarded a fast food wrapper or bag in front of them I would be the first to say she deserved it. But the way this is operated it appears some unaware individuals are being fined purely for financial reasons on the say so of someone in a uniform. As I said they are dressed all in black with no hiviz whatsoever.

I understand that unless they are arresting you don't have to give your details to the police, so why should these guys have more powers. Or if she had said no, would they have then called the police and had her arrested.

Whatever the reason, this is a murky path our liberties are going down. Where next?

Edited by Ben 10 on 21/11/2016 at 14:12

Litter fine - concrete

Sorry to hear of this unfortunate incident and the upset to your daughter. If you take the case to the ultimate end I suppose that means a magistrates court with your daughter v the local authority. It would always be a question of your word against theirs. Your daughter has admitted the offense, albeit inadvertantly, so it would come down to the magistrate to decide on mitigation. They may be bound by sentencing guidelines but may also have complete discretion to dismiss the case. It is so open ended and impossible to predict. It all depends on how far you are prepared to take this. A really awkward situation and I don't envy the decision you now have to make.

Worth noting is the recent suspension of a private enforcement company by Maidstone Borough Council, for over zealous behaviour. Tickets were issued for littering under ridiculous circumstances and the council rightly took notice of complaints. All the details will be online somewhere. It might give you some ammunition to construct a case and launch formal complaints to your local authority for employing such high handed companies. Also get the local newspaper onto it. They may start a crusade for you.

Best of luck. Cheers Concrete

Litter fine - daveyjp

Unfortunately this is what happens when you incentivise these people - they may or may not get a bonus for doing their job, but it is fairly obvious that any 'service' such as this has to be self funding.

If everyone is a good person and drops no litter who pays for the gestapo?

It is no different to private parking companies whose only source of income is the invoices they dish out. Their only job is to keep the £50-100 rolling in, any sense of fairness can't come into their operation as it affects their bottom line so dodgy practices and blatant scamming are the order of the day.

Usual for local council matters is a local Councillors meeting and Chief Exec complaints.

Litter fine - Ben 10
What is disturbing is the lack of evidence needed and on the opinion of one of these guys to get you into a court. But how would a magistrate view making a decision to convict on someone's say so without any evidence. Its a kangaroo court.

They are basing the fact of a criminal record and a 2.5k fine that no one will challenge and risk going to court and just cough up the penalty fine.

Surely there is something wrong here.
Litter fine - galileo
What is disturbing is the lack of evidence needed and on the opinion of one of these guys to get you into a court. But how would a magistrate view making a decision to convict on someone's say so without any evidence. Its a kangaroo court. They are basing the fact of a criminal record and a 2.5k fine that no one will challenge and risk going to court and just cough up the penalty fine. Surely there is something wrong here.

Could be worth a half hour consultation with a solicitor who has experience with the Court involved (considering that robbery with violence offenders receive community service orders or 3 months suspended sentences round here unlikely to have severe penalties in the unlikely event of being found guilty).

Magistrates are, after all, ordinary members of the public (albeit with some training and guidance on the day from a qualified professonal) the basis of English Law is "innocent until proved guilty beyond reasonable doubt" and without CCTV or body cam records, there is no evidence to support the accusation.

Litter fine - Ben 10
Trouble is she's just applied to join the police, and does not want to risk a criminal record. If it were me, I'd be taking it all the way.
I contacted Which legal who were as much help as a chocolate teapot and they suggested CAB.
But as you suggest, maybe some private legal advice but she's only got another week to settle the fine. I thought there might of been a mountain of stuff on tinternet but almost nothing, as I presume these wardens are a relatively new thing.
I did send an email to Surrey Comet but heard nothing. Hopefully they might highlight the situation next week.
Litter fine - Bromptonaut
Trouble is she's just applied to join the police, and does not want to risk a criminal record.

Oh dear. I don't think CAB will give you a definitive answer either, too many variables.

It's like one of those training excercises where you have to answer a question on facts disclosed so far. Then you turn over the page to discover further issues which initial exploration didn't disclose.

If she wants to join the Police then quite frankly she's not good material for a test case where worst outcome is a criminal record. Recruiter might disregard as de minimis but then might not. How lucky does she feel?

In her specific circs I'd pay up while there is still time and possible discount.

Edited by Bromptonaut on 24/11/2016 at 20:59

Litter fine - RT
Trouble is she's just applied to join the police, and does not want to risk a criminal record.

In that case I'd suggest paying up - it's not the fair result but the most practical.

Litter fine - Ben 10
That's what they're banking on. People paying 50-80 within 14 days or face the magistrate.

I contacted this private company and spoke to a manager. He said they have the powers to caution and demand ID. And admitted without any evidence, apart from their eyes, they will take you to court with no real evidence. He admitted there is no redress like a parking fine. And that majority just pay the fine.

I told him it's like holding a gun to your head, pay the fine or risk ending up in court. He said, well yes. How on earth is this fair. When anyone of us could be set up on the say so of a couple of wannabe coppers.

They should have to provide body cam evidence, otherwise its a rediculous situation. He says I dropped litter. I say I didn't. I refuse to give ID, they call police and possibly have me arrested. What a waste of resources and a waste of court time. Its like something back in the day in E. Germany.

A licence to print money as the alternative is go to court and face a massive fine. A sledgehammer to crack a nut.

So be aware of these jobs worths during Christmas shopping, as we could all pull a phone or wallet out and dislodge a receipt or paper and get mugged for the hell of it.

Thanks for the replies it just makes my blood boil to pay this without a challenge.
Litter fine - piggy
Trouble is she's just applied to join the police, and does not want to risk a criminal record.

In that case I'd suggest paying up - it's not the fair result but the most practical.

+1

Litter fine - daveyjp

The lack of any formal appeal process shows its not really a penalty - its more akin to a bribe to avoid being arrested or being taken to Court.

Litter fine - Ben 10
Exactly.
Litter fine - concrete

I simply find it incredible that there is no appeal procedure. This speaks volumes for our local authorities who are quite prepared to ride roughshod over basic legal rights.

As suggested previously I would complain vigorously to your local council and also to your MP. Surely there is a contact at the council that employs these hienous companies.

My eldest daughter is a police officer. In her wild youth she crossed the line and ended up with a criminal conviction. No threat of prison etc but a fine and other punishment. That was 17 years ago however, but it was discounted by the recruitment officer, simply because of what it was, the length of time since and having been of excellent character since she finally 'grew up'. However, like others, I think the risk is too great and a simple 'pay up and it goes away' is the right thing for your daughter. Goes against the grain, but achieves her purpose. Much sympathy.

Cheers Concrete

Litter fine - Bromptonaut

I simply find it incredible that there is no appeal procedure. This speaks volumes for our local authorities who are quite prepared to ride roughshod over basic legal rights.

As suggested previously I would complain vigorously to your local council and also to your MP. Surely there is a contact at the council that employs these hienous companies.

My eldest daughter is a police officer. In her wild youth she crossed the line and ended up with a criminal conviction. No threat of prison etc but a fine and other punishment. That was 17 years ago however, but it was discounted by the recruitment officer, simply because of what it was, the length of time since and having been of excellent character since she finally 'grew up'. However, like others, I think the risk is too great and a simple 'pay up and it goes away' is the right thing for your daughter. Goes against the grain, but achieves her purpose. Much sympathy.

Cheers Concrete

There is an appeal process; go to court, plead not guilty and defend the charge. Or complain to 'authority' and get chare withdrawn.

Just like Parking was twenty plus years ago.

What's needed is for these administrative offences to be 'de-criminalised' as parking was in nineties/noughties with appeals going to a tribunal.

Litter fine - Vitesse6
Just looked on www.gov.uk/guidance/enforcement-officers-issuing-f...s
Which gives the following information:

Accidental littering
Don’t issue FPNs for accidental littering, for example if something falls from someone’s pocket.

Only issue FPNs where there is evidence of intent to drop litter.

Give offenders the chance to pick up litter before you issue an FPN. Warn them that you will issue an FPN if they don’t
Litter fine - Ben 10
Yes that's the legislation.
But she insists it was accidental yet their opinion is she dropped it. They gave her no option to pick it up.
So in her case these guys did not adhere to those rules and provided no evidence whatsoever.
If it were me I'd be going to court. She is apathetic and feels like paying the pcn to get thevissue closed.
I contacted the leader of Kingston Council by email and he said he presumed these guys would of had body cams but that as it is relatively new they may have not been in possession.
I contacted the local radio station and they want to do an interview.