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Wed 23 Dec 2015 15:27

Here in Colchester - Blondie Drink Driver - oldroverboy.

I note that some of the papers are reporting a young lady who had too much to drink in the officers mess and proceeded to crash her bmw, hitting other cars .

Licence gone. Good!

Hefty fine GOOD!

Nobody hurt, but the painful bit is that she is facing a £16000 loss on her car and undoubtedly future insurance premium rises, and also disciplinary proceedings.

Overall, looking at it I think what a good idea it would be if people in these situations had to repay the insurance companies their losses if they have deliberately done a drink-drive.

Just put it clearly at number 1 in the terms and conditions.

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Wed 23 Dec 2015 15:43

Here in Colchester - Blondie Drink Driver - DirtyDieselDogg

But! ORB, it cannot be her fault, since any other female permed with alcohol, cannot be held accountable for their sexual exploits and regrets and accusations of rape, cos hey they were drunk.

Same logic should surely apply.

Edited by DirtyDieselDogg on 23/12/2015 at 15:44

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Thu 24 Dec 2015 11:06

Here in Colchester - Blondie Drink Driver - scot22

Your logic is flawed.

In the case of 'sexual exploits' - it is what is done to them not their decision to take any action. Surely nobody would attempt to defend someone in a drunken stupor being taken advantage of. Obviously not related to motoring but I agree with the law that men who exploit a woman who has lost her self control through alcohol (often bought by the man) should be punished.

As to drunk driving the penalties, as has been said on other threads, should be far greater.

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Thu 24 Dec 2015 11:44

Here in Colchester - Blondie Drink Driver - gordonbennet

I do have some sympathy with DDD's post, we all have to take some responsibility for ourselves our behaviour and the scrapes we get in once we attain adult status, whatever gender we may be.

Infinite variables in everything.

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Thu 24 Dec 2015 12:07

Here in Colchester - Blondie Drink Driver - scot22

I agree GB : there are infinite variables but, as a general rule, I still feel that there are some predatory males (O.K. and females) who should not get away with deplorable behaviour.

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Thu 24 Dec 2015 12:26

Here in Colchester - Blondie Drink Driver - Bianconeri

Let's face it, we live in a society where the majority are not taught that rights come with an equal measure of responsibilities, or where you should respect youself and everyone (nay, everyhing) you share the planet with.

But, seemingly, they are taught that your first thought when something happens is 'who can I blame / sue', that because someone disagrees with you they are are threatening / being offensive, that it's ok to behave like a lout and flout the law as long as you aren't caught.

Merry Christmas

Edited by Bianconeri on 24/12/2015 at 12:27

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Thu 24 Dec 2015 12:41

Here in Colchester - Blondie Drink Driver - gordonbennet

That i couldn't agree more with Scot.

Unfortunately young men in particular who are decent chaps, young gentlemen? and there are still a good number about, are often regarded as boring by a large minority of young women, fortunately there are enough young women not quite so blinkered or bamboozled (nor as confused about who they should be, ie be yourself) who snap these decent young men up to make the world go round.

edit, agreed Bianconeri

Edited by gordonbennet on 24/12/2015 at 12:43

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Thu 24 Dec 2015 14:07

Here in Colchester - Blondie Drink Driver - oldroverboy.

I quoted loosely the local and national press about a drink driving Blondie, equally I am sure there are other hair colours of both sexes who will drink drive and suffer the financial consequences.

In the case mentioned a £16000 loss on her car as not unreasonably the Insurance company will not cover HER OWN personal losses.

That is the severe punishment, perhaps tough, but in my eyes a good thing if it makes one more person think about their potential liabilities.

One of my points was that If Insurance companies were able to recuperate losses paid out in situations like this where the person has drunk driven or similiar then that could be a good thing.

Mind how you go folks..

Personal drink driving limit always big fat ZERO. (which is what the national limit should be!)

Edited by oldroverboy. on 24/12/2015 at 14:12

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Sat 26 Dec 2015 09:02

Here in Colchester - Blondie Drink Driver - carr

Have a heart. She lives in Colchester, she's been punished enough already.

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Sat 26 Dec 2015 16:42

Here in Colchester - Blondie Drink Driver - oldroverboy.

AND, What's wrong with Colchester, We have the lovely A12 , A Borough and County Councils at odds with each other over the traffic circulation plans, which are not the same as what would be sensible.

An example is that they want to ban traffic on the little inner bit of Head, High St and Queen st, To go from high st to queen st you have to drive past it, do a u turn and then come back, and turn left.

I won't mention the parking charges, which make it worthwhile driving to Ipswich 18 miles away and still saving money on the parking.

One bright spot is that the "Human interface for council services" which is actually in the library is that the people really do their best,

Otherwise, Punishment enough.

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Sat 26 Dec 2015 17:29

Here in Colchester - Blondie Drink Driver - Ethan Edwards

Army nurse..didn't I read she did a tour in Afghanistan? . Probably seen a lot. Might call for a little more understanding and a tad less opprobrium.

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Sat 26 Dec 2015 17:59

Here in Colchester - Blondie Drink Driver - skidpan

Army nurse..didn't I read she did a tour in Afghanistan? . Probably seen a lot. Might call for a little more understanding and a tad less opprobrium.

Why more understanding. She is a danger and lawbreaker. Deserves all she gets.

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Sat 26 Dec 2015 18:32

Here in Colchester - Blondie Drink Driver - Ethan Edwards

Ever heard of ptsd?

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Sat 26 Dec 2015 18:41

Here in Colchester - Blondie Drink Driver - Wolfan

Ever heard of ptsd?

I know of a good remedy for that but it'sbetter to try it before drinking or being tempted to drive.

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Sat 26 Dec 2015 19:34

Here in Colchester - Blondie Drink Driver - RT

Army nurse..didn't I read she did a tour in Afghanistan? . Probably seen a lot. Might call for a little more understanding and a tad less opprobrium.

We should supprt those who "put themselves in danger" for the common good BEFORE it gets to this point.

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Sat 26 Dec 2015 20:15

Here in Colchester - Blondie Drink Driver - oldroverboy.

Army nurse..didn't I read she did a tour in Afghanistan? . Probably seen a lot. Might call for a little more understanding and a tad less opprobrium.

We should supprt those who "put themselves in danger" for the common good BEFORE it gets to this point.

I do not recall that bit but if so I would really be worried as Colchester is a garrison town and many stay here and are normal citizens, otherwise the place would be full of drink driving accidents when in fact it is just merely average for that. My grandfather who was Belgian-British was sent here to recover after being crippled like so many doing his duty for his country. IF the said Blondie was a nurse in action it still doesn't hode the fact that she caused a lot of damage and only by the purest of miracles was nobody seriously hurt. Respect for serving her country yes. Sympathy for her actions Nzo!

Edited by oldroverboy. on 26/12/2015 at 20:16

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Sat 26 Dec 2015 20:42

Here in Colchester - Blondie Drink Driver - Wackyracer

I seem to remember reading an article about there being an increase in the amount of service personnel returning from tours of duty being involved in car accidents. It might have even been on the TV news.

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Sat 26 Dec 2015 23:17

Here in Colchester - Blondie Drink Driver - Ethan Edwards

Yes I'm around Colchester rather a lot myself. However I'm no more concerned there than anywhere else. I'm sure your equally cautious yourself. Just keep your dash cam running and hope for the best.

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Sun 27 Dec 2015 10:42

Here in Colchester - Blondie Drink Driver - John F

Army nurse..didn't I read she did a tour in Afghanistan? . Probably seen a lot. Might call for a little more understanding and a tad less opprobrium.

I agree - this seems to have brought out the worst in one or two rather unpleasant posters. I wonder how many 'there but the grace of g went I...' thoughts there are from us greybeards who occasionally weaved their cautious way back home in the 60's and 70's. The past is a foreign country, we did things differently there, to adapt a phrase.....

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Sun 27 Dec 2015 19:55

Here in Colchester - Blondie Drink Driver - thunderbird

I feel I must comment on the way this thread has degenerated.

Do posters seriously think that persons who have served their country should be considered special cases. I hope not but that is the way it reads.

The law with regards to drink driving is clear and recently there was a long thread about what the penalties should be. Those penalties should appply to one and all with no special circumstances.

Anyone who thinks otherwise needs a dose of reality.

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Sun 27 Dec 2015 20:13

Here in Colchester - Blondie Drink Driver - Bromptonaut

Do posters seriously think that persons who have served their country should be considered special cases. I hope not but that is the way it reads.

In relation to guilt or innocence there should be no exceptions or special cases.

But mitigation (or aggravation) in sentencing is different. There should be room for ptsd, Mental Health, remorse and any multiple of other factors to reduce or for wilful /repeated disregard, intent and lack of remorse to increase.

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Sun 27 Dec 2015 20:31

Here in Colchester - Blondie Drink Driver - galileo

Do posters seriously think that persons who have served their country should be considered special cases. I hope not but that is the way it reads.

In relation to guilt or innocence there should be no exceptions or special cases.

But mitigation (or aggravation) in sentencing is different. There should be room for ptsd, Mental Health, remorse and any multiple of other factors to reduce or for wilful /repeated disregard, intent and lack of remorse to increase.

Bromp, in this case I agree with you. Especially as on a daily basis we hear of those who commit serious crimes of theft, or violence against the person, pleading that they had "a problem with drink/drugs" and therefore usually being given what their victims regard as unduly lenient treatment.

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Mon 28 Dec 2015 08:59

Here in Colchester - Blondie Drink Driver - Bromptonaut

Especially as on a daily basis we hear of those who commit serious crimes of theft, or violence against the person, pleading that they had "a problem with drink/drugs" and therefore usually being given what their victims regard as unduly lenient treatment.

Maybe, just maybe, our politicians are looking for practical rather than populist solutions:

tinyurl.com/qc88by3 (Guardian article on specialist courts)

I was very sceptical of Gove's appointment as Lord Chancellor regarding him as even worse than Grayling. In fact he's proving to be both a pragmatist and a social liberal.

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Sun 27 Dec 2015 22:04

Here in Colchester - Blondie Drink Driver - Avant

These are people who have served, and may still be serving, their country loyally and bravely, sometimes at risk to their lives.

So clearly they have far more good in them than bad. I'm not saying they should necessarily be treated leniently, particularly in the case that ORB started the discussion with; but they clearly need constructive help at the same time as punishment to get them 'back on track'. I would hope that the Services have the resources to see that this happens.

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Sun 27 Dec 2015 22:12

Here in Colchester - Blondie Drink Driver - gordonbennet

Or as is the case in reality which seems to have been the same since time began...once you've fired the politicians bullets for them, or soaked a few up, those same politicians can't get rid of you quickly enough once your usefulness has expired.

Will that change as our political class evolves further down the shoddy road its heading, i doubt it.

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Sun 27 Dec 2015 23:28

Here in Colchester - Blondie Drink Driver - Ethan Edwards

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/1206...l

A truama nurse done a tour in Afghanistan. Yes she did wrong but there could easily be an underlying problem. I'd like to think justice can be fair. Losing her job as well seems to me to be unfair.

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Mon 28 Dec 2015 09:36

Here in Colchester - Blondie Drink Driver - thunderbird

I am sorry but I just don't get this.

If you do wrong you should be punished, end of story. A drunk driver who has served in Afganistan should be treated no differently to a drunk driver who works in Tesco. They could both kill innocent road users and pedestrians and the mess costs exactly the same to clear up so why should there be any difference. They were not forced to join the Army so why is it different to any other job.

The law is the law and should apply to all exactly the same. How would you feel if an MP was given a lenient sentance after drink driving because he argued his job was stressful.

Get a grip on reality please

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Mon 28 Dec 2015 10:10

Here in Colchester - Blondie Drink Driver - scot22

A basic tenet of behaviour management is that you disapprove of the behaviour, not the person. I know few facts of this case but it was clearly wrong behaviour which must have serious consequences as a punishment and deterrent.

That said - if what has been said about her experiences is true then she has been failed by those who should have been looking after her welfare. A subject for another forum but it is a national disgrace how ex servicemen are abandoned by the authorities to fend for themselves ( there are charities but the country should accept responsibility) Sadly our society, as a system, does not priotise people. Fortunately the vast majority of people, as individuals, as caring and compassionate.

The abuse of alcohol is a problem not given the attention it deserves : could this be because of profits and taxation ?

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Mon 28 Dec 2015 11:07

Here in Colchester - Blondie Drink Driver - Wackyracer

Sadly alot of the posts on this thread are going down the route of current thinking where people are no longer responsible for their own actions.

We are talking about a 33 year old woman who was deemed sane enough (and smart enough) to be a medic in the army and now we are saying that she is not capable of making the simple decision not to drink and drive?

Funny how not long ago everyone seemed to want the Scottish lorry driver to be sent to prison for giving false information, I don't recall anyone saying it was the governments fault for that. Maybe he was having a tough time and maybe it was the only way he could have continued to pay his way in life?

People who do wrong should be punished for what they did, Why should their career dictate what the punishment should be?

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Mon 28 Dec 2015 11:48

Here in Colchester - Blondie Drink Driver - Bromptonaut

Why should their career dictate what the punishment should be?

It's a bit more nuanced than that. Nobody is suggesting that just becuase she's army/nurse she should get a 'let off'.

There's a starting point for sentence. If there are mitigating factors, in this case possible PTSD, then if the bench are satisfied eg by medical evidence, they can reduce the sentence.

The idea that justice should be tempered with mercy in that kind of way isn't exactly revolutionary or a preserve of liberal/left thinkers like myself.

Murder ranges from mercy killing to terrorism. Would you send both to jail for 'whole of life'?

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Mon 28 Dec 2015 12:10

Here in Colchester - Blondie Drink Driver - scot22

Yes, people are responsible for their own actions. However, external factors can affect people's ability to make correct decisions.

I find the generally lenient attitude towards exceeding speed limits ( and possible consequences ) inconsistent with some views here.

Nobody has suggested excusing her actions. Surely we should try to seek ways to prevent drink driving as well as dealing with culprits. Prison doesn't work by itself.

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Mon 28 Dec 2015 12:27

Here in Colchester - Blondie Drink Driver - Wackyracer

I'm sure that if she did have a case where PTSD or other factors could have been a contributor then her legal representative would have tried to reduce her punishment accordingly.

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Mon 28 Dec 2015 12:23

Here in Colchester - Blondie Drink Driver - Bianconeri

There isn't one of us who knows whether she is suffering from PTSD or nor.

What does concern me is that in today's society there always seems to be a bandwagon to jump on to excuse an individual's actions plus plenty keen to point out where the bandwagon is and why it's important to consider it and give a convenient get out for ducking responsibilities.

Been in the army, might have PTSD. Might not.

Does any of us know?

Here, someone who had the privelige of having a license to drive a car abused that privelige and now does not. Plenty of folks who lose their license also lose their job as a consequence. Cause and effect.

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Mon 28 Dec 2015 12:39

Here in Colchester - Blondie Drink Driver - galileo

Or as is the case in reality which seems to have been the same since time began...once you've fired the politicians bullets for them, or soaked a few up, those same politicians can't get rid of you quickly enough once your usefulness has expired.

Will that change as our political class evolves further down the shoddy road its heading, i doubt it.

Summed up years ago by Kipling:

For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` Chuck him out, the brute! "
But it's " Saviour of 'is country " when the guns begin to shoot;

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Mon 28 Dec 2015 16:33

Here in Colchester - Blondie Drink Driver - FP

There is some muddled thinking in this thread, probably because it's an emotive subject and - I have to say - the use of the word "blondie" in the title sets up certain prejudices.

I think we need to separate (as does the law) the offence and the appropriate punishment. In this case it was not a question of "one size fits all".

The punishment, as decided by due legal process, took into account the circumstances of the offence and the personal situation of the convicted. If PTSD is relevant it will have been considered; likewise for someone's employment and any other relevant factors.

We don't have all the information. We do know that a court somewhere decided the hefty punishment the female in question received was appopriate. We are simply not in a position to say whether it was too harsh or too lenient and voicing our own prejudices about how someone should be treated brings unhelpful emotion into scrutinising the case, which is why a courtroom is the right place to deal with this sort of thing and the tabloid press and informal discussions are not.

As for ORB's last point (losses recouped from a deliberate drunk driver), I like it a lot, but I can foresee huge problems in establishing "deliberate", which requires a fairly detailed examination of someone's state of mind and thinking processes before the consumption of alcohol. We are looking at a complex and costly addition to the legal process.

Edited by FP on 28/12/2015 at 16:37

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Mon 28 Dec 2015 16:47

Here in Colchester - Blondie Drink Driver - RT

As for ORB's last point (losses recouped from a deliberate drunk driver), I like it a lot, but I can foresee huge problems in establishing "deliberate", which requires a fairly detailed examination of someone's state of mind and thinking processes before the consumption of alcohol. We are looking at a complex and costly addition to the legal process.

Any such legal action would be civil, not criminal, and only has to establish the "balance of probability" that the person deliberately drank alcohol and then deliberately drove - any evidence that either wasn't deliberate would need to show that drinks were spike or physical force used to make them drive.

The danger is that once established, the same policy might be applied to own damage if successfully prosecuted for careless/dangerous driving.

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Mon 28 Dec 2015 16:55

Here in Colchester - Blondie Drink Driver - skidpan

The armed forces of today are all people who have willingly joined up, they are not forced to do it. Before they joined they should have considered the possibility of having to serve in a war zone and the stress that would inevitably bring with it.

So lets not start giving them special treatment.

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Mon 28 Dec 2015 17:17

Here in Colchester - Blondie Drink Driver - Bromptonaut

The danger is that once established, the same policy might be applied to own damage if successfully prosecuted for careless/dangerous driving.

It already is. My LV policy will not pay for damage to my car in an accident were I to be convicted of DUI at time. Presumably 'Blondie' had a similar term in her own insurance.

As an aside the selfies and other pictures of her used to illustrate the Telegraph report linked above were presumably 'lifted' from her Facebook (or other social media account). I doubt she consented to their use.

A warning to all of us about what we share and how we set security.

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Mon 28 Dec 2015 17:37

Here in Colchester - Blondie Drink Driver - oldroverboy.

The danger is that once established, the same policy might be applied to own damage if successfully prosecuted for careless/dangerous driving.

It already is. My LV policy will not pay for damage to my car in an accident were I to be convicted of DUI at time. Presumably 'Blondie' had a similar term in her own insurance.

Ditto!

I am also with LV, I am sure that if others check their policies (please do!) they will find similiar conditions.

Additionally SWMBO would be very cross with me..

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Mon 28 Dec 2015 17:52

Here in Colchester - Blondie Drink Driver - FP

"My LV policy will not pay for damage to my car in an accident were I to be convicted of DUI at time."

But it will pay for third-party losses, I assume.

The suggestion on the table is that the insurer could come after the driver for any pay-outs as a result of deliberate drink-driving.

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Mon 28 Dec 2015 16:52

Here in Colchester - Blondie Drink Driver - oldroverboy.

Recours des assureurs RC des véhicules automobiles

En cas de dommages commis par un conducteur en état d’ébriété ou dans l’incapacité de conduire, ou résultant d’un délit de chauffard, les assureurs RC des véhicules automobiles sont tenus de recourir contre la personne responsable de l’accident. L’ampleur du recours tient compte du degré de culpabilité et de la situation économique de celle-ci.

Insurers must recover losses from the person responsible allowing for the degree of guilt and the economic situation of that person.

copied from the other thread on drink driving in switzerland

If it is enshrined in mororing law I am sure it will come here.

Food for thought!

Will it act as a deterrent?

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Mon 28 Dec 2015 18:49

Here in Colchester - Blondie Drink Driver - skidpan

It already is. My LV policy will not pay for damage to my car in an accident were I to be convicted of DUI at time.

The clause was on my Aviva policy and is now on my More Than policy. The clause also includes drugs.

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Tue 29 Dec 2015 20:05

Here in Colchester - Blondie Drink Driver - jamie745

They will pay for damage you cause to other peoples cars though and if insurance companies stopped paying for that and the drunk driver forced to 'pay up' there would be anarchy, because people would never get their payouts because the drunks haven't got it. People would stop bothering with insurance altogether.

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Tue 29 Dec 2015 21:28

Here in Colchester - Blondie Drink Driver - galileo

They will pay for damage you cause to other peoples cars though and if insurance companies stopped paying for that and the drunk driver forced to 'pay up' there would be anarchy, because people would never get their payouts because the drunks haven't got it. People would stop bothering with insurance altogether.

Quite right, Jamie, unfortunately there are already many who don't bother with insurance, because they can't afford the premiums, they have stolen the vehicle or it is a 'pool car' used randomly by feral scrotes (as featured on reality Police programmes).

If caught, fines are usually about a tenth of the premium they would have had to pay, based on the Magistrates' sentencing guidelines based on income (in most cases, benefits).

Until there is severe punishment for ' No Insurance' these yobs and joyriders will calculate, correctly, it is the optimal way to drive.

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Tue 29 Dec 2015 21:41

Here in Colchester - Blondie Drink Driver - jamie745

Well such is the way of things that you can't really argue with their logic. Points on a licence they dont have and fines they can't pay are insignificant compared to the vast cost of gaining licences, paying for insurance - particularly in some of the northern cities - and running a car in a safe legal manner. If they did do it they'd be the only one and the next scrote would nick the car. It's a vicious cycle which shows no sign of stopping.

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