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Better to stop thinking about how many gears and worrying about which number gear to select.
Drive normally and change up or down according to how the car "feels", the traffic conditions, what you intend to do next, etc. With ever more gears available this approach makes it logical to do block changes, skipping one or more gears. Doing this meant that my transitions (no pun intended) over the years from a 3 speed to a 4 speed to a 5 speed to a 6 speed were totally painless.
Regarding your question "Is it O.K. just to use five of the gears ?" look at it this way. If you spend 2 hours cruising the M6 at 70mph you are unlikely ever to select 1st. If you spend 2 hours below 30mph in city traffic I doubt there would be any point in selecting 6th. And so on ...
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Thanks - good advice - will follow
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Craig describes pretty much what I do - use the gears to keep the engine in its torque band.
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Time and time again I see posts (here and elsewhere) about torque ranges - especially when reviewing large capacity engines versus small, efficient, turbo charged engines ( I suppose I'm thinking of Ford's 1.0 litre and VAG's 1.2 engines). And there's always talk about whether this or that engine has enough power/torque at a particular rev band and how the driver likes low down grunt versus high revs to facilitate a particular style of driving.
And this post here adds another point i.e. how many gears may be useful or effective or desirable.
But for the likes of simpletons like myself it's all pretty academic. I have the small efficient petrol turbocharged type of engine - in a fairly big body (Yeti) and so, ostensibly, there's scope to debate how, with such a combination, I should surely struggle to achieve the performance required and how I must surely be chaning gear all the time in order to keep up with the requirement for power to get up hills or anticipate hazards etc etc.
But it's so easy.... I have a DSG gearbox which selects the right gear for the conditions and that's that. OK, admittedly it's not QUITE that simple - there's Drive and Sport modes which do affect the behaviour of the changes quite a lot - but on the whole it decides if it wants to get into top gear at the earliest opportunity or whether it wants to rev the nuts off itself due to a particularly sharp incline. And very often I'm happy to let it get on with it. I can manually override if I so choose or let it do it's thing. Therefore capacity for low down grunt is something I have no need to yearn for and the number of gears in there is also of limited interest - remember there are two types of DSG - a six and a seven speed - and I'd be happy as Larry with either. If I had an 8 or 9 speed BMW or Mercedes auto box I'm sure they'd be even better.
And having owned a 3 speed Ford Pop and having used 6 speed manuals I think I'd probably opt for the latter but a conventional 5 speed manual is generally fine so long as top gear is such that it doesn't have the engine doing more than 3000rpm at 70mph Both my Hyundai i10's (one auto and one manual) were (are) distinctly unpleasant at speed due to the high gearing. Next car I get will be scrutinized to see what revs it'll be doing at 70mph....the Yeti is a dream and is barely ticking over and the Hyundai is thoroughly unpleasant.
The end.
Edited by KB. on 25/10/2015 at 16:09
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Ah, the 3-speed Ford 100E! Wind the 1172cc side-valve engine up to 25 mph in 2nd, with the gears whining like mad, then into top gear (3rd) and stay there! From what I remember the ratios approximated 1st, 2nd and 4th of a typical 4-speed box in other small cars of the day - hence the 100E's big jump from 2nd to top!
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Sofa Spud thats rings a bell or two,
years ago at work we used to have a Bedford CF pick up 1.8 petrol 4 speed box, 1st would do about 10 mph, second about 20 3rd hardly any different about 25mph at valve bounce point, drop it into top and? droooone, should have had 2 more gears in between, dropped about 4000 rpm between 3rd and 4th, what a nightmare thing it was.
Interesting the enthusiasm on some of the posts for this horribly short torque band of modern Diesels and the never ending shuffling of gears, i detest that sort of engine, nothing frustrates me more, and i wouldn't give you 5 bob for such a contraption, luckily we're all different.
I like the idea of the DSG doing it all for you, great so long as you stay in warranty, not a gearbox i'd dare own outside of cover.
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I'm well into my fourth year now, so well out of warranty. However it gets serviced at the local main dealer and it's had the recall work (new clutch pack and electronic updates etc)....so you would HOPE that an element of goodwill would apply if the clutch pack failed. It also has the extended warranty supplied by the same people that implement Skoda's own extended warranty but that excludes the clutch pack.
However, yes, I agree, the expression "skating on thin ice" could be applied. With the benefit of hindsight I'd have taken out the 5 year warranty from new. But the operation of the DSG suits our circumstances and driving style and I've learned to "accommodate" the quirks which I know you're unhappy with....to the extent I'd buy another DSG equipped car. Ideally it would be the six speed in order to reduce likelihood of problems but that means buying a diesel and I think I'm happier not doing that right now.
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In theory DSG is ideal similar smart instant changes to TC boxes on the move, its the failure fear factor puts me off, just aint brave enough, plus my previous job taught me to despise all cars fitted with non torque converter automated clutches.
However, it appears that Volvo lorries are now starting to be fitted with an optional twin clutch gearbox, seeing as we're starting to get some Volvo's among other makes where i work and my present steed has just over 2 years left to run of its 5 year lease, well
I'm hoping, just maybe, that constant uniterrupted acceleration coupled with Volvo seemingly the only maker of automated manual boxes that have the faintest idea what gear to go for at junctions....all i have to do now is come to terms that it will have an electric parking brake and non switchable DRLs, doh
Edited by gordonbennet on 25/10/2015 at 21:43
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I cannot understand those Ex Petrol-head drivers who bemoan and wail about the narrow power band in diesels.
Perhaps coming from an agricultural background I never found this to be the slightest bit noticable, for one the used-to-be "once-upon-a-time" diesel engine had torque far in excess of the comparable sized/HP petrol that allowed it to "lug" from far lower revs.
If I recall correctly the 1.9TDI in the Galaxy comfortably pulled 3rd in most urban driving, without any distress or premature failure.
And once I started driving diesels it was always "up" "up" "up" the gears at the lowest possible engine revs.
Simply driving by ear.
It worked
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I cannot understand those Ex Petrol-head drivers who bemoan and wail about the narrow power band in diesels.
The first diesel I bought was a 1996 Golf TDi 90. Compared to turbo diesels I had driven on the works hire fleet (mostly Cavalier's, Escorts and Mondeo's) it was superb with excellent economy and a smoke screen from the exhaust that was worthy of a Bond film.
But the combination of the power band and gearing made town driving a tiring affair, you never seemed to be in the right gear for any speed and were forever changing to find boost.
Subsequent diesels were much better, the best was probably the 143 PS BMW 2 litre one we had for 5 1/2 years. No lag, no smoke and brilliant performance but the economy was no match for the Golf.
After 19 years back with a turbo petrol now, the 1.4 TSi 140 in a Seat Leon. It has all in gear acceleration on the diesels with no turbo lag and a much wider power band, similar revs at 70 mph with decent economy. No more diesels for me.
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Oddly enough, or not on reflection.
I test drove the 90BHP TDI in the Galaxy and refused to countanance buying one.
A proper "slug" specially in such a bluff heavy vehicle.
The 110BHP on the other hand . . .
(The Variable Vane Turbo in the 110BHP varient really really seemed to make a vast difference, or well more than 20BHP of a difference)
BUT
Having driven one of the early 1.2TSI's from VW, I was properly gobsmacked how diesel like it was to drive.
Wor next car will almost certainly be petrol, and possibly/likely a Toyota hybrid
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Wor next car will almost certainly be petrol, and possibly/likely a Toyota hybrid
It would be a shame to change your username though :)
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Ah, the 3-speed Ford 100E! Wind the 1172cc side-valve engine up to 25 mph in 2nd, with the gears whining like mad, then into top gear (3rd) and stay there! From what I remember the ratios approximated 1st, 2nd and 4th of a typical 4-speed box in other small cars of the day - hence the 100E's big jump from 2nd to top!
In the mid-sixties I bought a 100E from a mate who had modified it - twin SUs, Burgess silencer and best of all, a Morris 1000 gearbox. I was working in Edinburgh at the time, one night, as an experiment, managed to drive from Scotch Corner to Edinburgh in 4th gear via A68 over Carter Bar. (little or no traffic or traffic lights then!)
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I has a Renault Laguna tourer. 1.9tdi with a six speed box.(Old company car days) I did a lot of motorway driving so I found the extra gear useful and it does conserve fuel. I would not be put off by a car having either 5 or 6 speed manual gearboxes, they seem as reliable as any other gearbox. So go for it.
Cheers Concrete
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Thanks everyone for all of the posts. My intention in OP has certainly been met.
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Simply put six gears will give you lower revs on the motorway. Car will have lowe noise levels, and probably more MPG.
My Mazda could easily cope with another gear, but i wouldn't want it in a manual box. Porsche fit a 7 speed manual box.
I fact i've just ordered an auto, i did want 8 or 9 gears but bought another mazda with only six, but i do very few motorway miles and when i do its often towing at a 60mph maximum.
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Simply put six gears will give you lower revs on the motorway. Car will have lowe noise levels, and probably more MPG.
My Mazda could easily cope with another gear, but i wouldn't want it in a manual box. Porsche fit a 7 speed manual box.
I fact i've just ordered an auto, i did want 8 or 9 gears but bought another mazda with only six, but i do very few motorway miles and when i do its often towing at a 60mph maximum.
Not neccesarily, if the designers choose to put the ratios close together then 6th will invariably have the same ratio as 5th in a 5 speeder. This is where we came in, the increasing number of gears is an attempt to mask tiny rev bands where the engine is efficient / has enough power.
I drove a new E class diesel the other day. The 7 speed auto was constantly shifting to cope with the narrow power band.
A four speed box with overdrive on third and top was always a great answer but tends to be nigh on impossible with fwd.
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Simply put six gears will give you lower revs on the motorway. Car will have lowe noise levels, and probably more MPG.
Six gears will probably give you lower revs but its not a given. Some manufacturers stack them closer when adding a 6th, others make 6th a tad higher and 5th a tad lower, idle ones just stick a 6th on top and in some cases that results in a gear that only usable on motorways, a waste of time.
As for noise I would disagree. Most noise at motorway speed is road and wind, very little engine noise gets into the cabin. Having a 6th no difference.
A stupidly high 6th that constantly requires you to drop a gear to pull out or climb a moderate slope will do nothing for your mpg. In truth I would be surprised if having a 6th made any difference to your mpg in the real world on a mixture of roads.
Wifes new Nissan Note DIG-S has a 5 speed box and does about 2800 rpm at 70 mph to give a nice relaxed cruise with sufficient go as to not need to drop gears on the Motorway when pulling out. But the result is the lower ratios are all a bit high meaning 3rd in town can be a pain and 4th is not a great overtaking gear. A 6 speed with the ratio currently used for 5th retained for the new 6th with the other ratios lowered and closed up would definetely improve the car but I doubt it would do anything for MPG. On an out of town run it does over 60 mpg so what's to gain.
My 6 speed Seat Leon TSi 140 PS has gear ratios that are perfectly matched to the engine. The other cars I would say that about have been the Ford Puma 1.7 and the Mk2 Golf GTi which were both 5 speeders. Not relaxing cruisers to be honest, 3500 rpm at 70 mph, but they suited the cars.
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In the cars i'm interested in diesel suv below 200 bhp, extra gears always result in lower revs in top gear.
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In the cars i'm interested in diesel suv below 200 bhp, extra gears always result in lower revs in top gear.
Er, isn't that what happens when you change up in any car? I thought the debate was whether a six speed always has a higher topgear than a five speed. The answer is "not necessarily" and I think that's true irrespective of engine type or bhp.
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>>>"...idle ones just stick a 6th on top and in some cases that results in a gear that only usable on motorways, a waste of time.
As for noise I would disagree. Most noise at motorway speed is road and wind, very little engine noise gets into the cabin. Having a 6th no difference.
A stupidly high 6th that constantly requires you to drop a gear to pull out or climb a moderate slope will do nothing for your mpg. In truth I would be surprised if having a 6th made any difference to your mpg in the real world on a mixture of roads."
Why is it a waste of time?
My Astra has the 1.3 Fiat diesel, with 90hp, but a 6 speed gearbox.
The engine happens to run sweetest just inside the torque peak - about 2100 rpm. Below this there is nowt, but above it there is further turbo torque, so acceleration is possible and available.
For cruising on a motorway, then, the most refined and most economical scenario is to have the engine running at 2100 rpm.
In 5th gear this equates to just shy of 70 mph, so 5th gear, and possibly slightly more revs, is perfect if I want to be sure of remaining utterly legal.
But continental motorways have higher speed limits, and in the UK most of the motorway traffic is doing plenty more than 70 (where it is free-flowing, i.e. "cruising"). So if I stick it in 6th, it does the 2100 rpm at just shy of 80mph - in other words the ideal gear for when I want to run with the pack or want/need to get a bit of a hurry-on.
And yes, although engine noise isn't the biggest factor at those speeds, I can still notice the engine noise (usefully) reduce.
If I choose to cruise at 60mph, then the car is more economical in 5th than in 6th. So what? I know this, and I just leave it in 5th. What's the big deal?
My car's 6th is a gear that is only usable on motorways. Great! -it fits the bill perfectly, with all the advantages in all the right places.
Most certainly not "a waste of time".
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The E class diesel certainly doesn't have what i would call a narrow power band. The least power version has a 7 speed auto, the more powerfull diesel 9 speeds.
If the box was changing then it was to provide maximum economy not performance. Max torque from 1400 to 2800 rpm with 177ps from 3200 to 3800 rpm is enough even for the weight of an E class.
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Simply put six gears will give you lower revs on the motorway. Car will have lowe noise levels, and probably more MPG.
My Mazda could easily cope with another gear, but i wouldn't want it in a manual box. Porsche fit a 7 speed manual box.
I fact i've just ordered an auto, i did want 8 or 9 gears but bought another mazda with only six, but i do very few motorway miles and when i do its often towing at a 60mph maximum.
Hello xtrailman, do you use a vehicle with an autobox for towing? I am not a mechanical engineer, but two questions spring to mind.
1. I thought that autoboxes were not tough enough for towing.
2. Manual gears give much more control, espescially when the ground conditions are not good.
Obviously I am behind the curve on this, but very interested as I am contemplating buying a caravan and a vehicle to tow it. I was only looking at manual diesels. Should I include autos in my search? Any comments appreciated. Cheers Concrete
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Autos are great for towing provided they are man enough. Often the auto version of a model has a lower towing limit than the manual, perhaps because it is torque limited or would potentially have insufficient cooling at the higher limit.
I tow a smallish 1200kg caravan with a manual Outlander diesel; it's a good towcar, stiff at the back, 1700kg+, and more than enough power.
However I avoid reversing, particularly uphill. Reverse is too high (low reduction if you prefer) a gear to let the clutch in fully and slipping the clutch while shoving 1200kg up a slope risks generating a lot of heat in the clutch and DMF. An auto enables you to creep as slowly as you like without worry.
I will qualify that by saying a TC auto - I wouldn't personally want to tow with a dual clutch auto or any sort of automated manual, which is why I didn't buy the automatic Outlander. CVTs I would look at case by case.
Occasionally I tow a heavy trailer for a friend, using an automatic Range Rover V8 - the perfect towcar, short of a big Landcruiser. If you have your own oil well of course.
Incidentally - as this thread is about 6 speed manuals - I rarely use 6th while towing. Otherwise, I don't find 6 gears a nuisance. I block change a lot, and can usually find one I like.
Edited by Manatee on 28/10/2015 at 17:42
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Thanks manatee, gives me something to think about now. Cheers Concrete
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Concrete.
I have only towed with manual cars todate, but i'm getting on in years now so i've recently ordered my first ever auto.
I read a lot of posts on forums and autos are very very popular with caravanners.
Its impossible to generalise all models but just each model in turn, fact is an auto of the same model with the same engine, can have a higher or lower tow limit that its manual equivalent.
The Mazda CX-5 has a towing limit of 2000kg for a braked trailer in auto and manual when fitted with the diesel engine. Auto transmissions also vary a lot, so it pays to investigate any model you have an interest in.
Auto AWD sport is also the heaviest CX-5 at just over 1700kg.
The CX-5 has a Mazda auto with a TC that operates below 5mph, then a sort of double clutch after that. One of the best autos is the ZF 8 speed fitted into the RWD BMW.
PS i do most of my towing in 6th gear guided by the shift changer in the manual car, but the car has upto 420nm of torque, with a lot low down, towing i'm often at 1500rpm.
Edited by xtrailman on 29/10/2015 at 18:29
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I borrowed a work trailer for a run to Belfast last night.
A 3m by 2m wide IW, it weighs about 800kg empty and is plated at 2000kg, a nice match for the Octavia, if a trifle wide.
Anyway the DSG "drove" the same as I ud ave done, in terms of gear selection and revs used.
Even coming back fully loaded, stayed mostly in 6th at about 1500rpm doing 50mph, only dropping to 5th on inclines, and never exceeded 2000rpm unless I was accellerating away from a junction.
Quite faultless the DSG, for towing, cept for the lack of fine control when reversing.
m
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That fine control problem with the DSG why I don't think we will ever have another. The 7 speed in our Roomster is amazingly good 99% of the time but the flaw is fatal. I can drive around its other foibles but it is impossible smoothly to inch up to a wall for example.
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