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No probably not, so you have to ask why 'Payday lenders' do.
Their entire business model is to make money by charging people who can't afford their interest rates and who can't possibly go anywhere else. I've never understood the logic of piling a higher charge on someone who simply hasn't got it.
I can see your point though, the only type of person borrowing from these lenders are just feckless scum. After all, it's not like anyone could've defaulted on a loan through losing their job, because PPI sorted that out - actually no wait a minute, it f***ing didn't did it?!
It wouldn't surprise me if many users of such a service are the same people once conned by the PPI racket who simply can't go anywhere else now.
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(Lost their job ripped off by ppi companies )
You're getting soft hearted Jamie ,inevitably some will have fallen on hard times,the vast majority simply can't manage their income ,they insist on smoking and drinking cheap booze ,they buy crap food from expensive take aways ,instead of cooking much cheaper more nutritional food at home .They take the kids to school in taxis instead of walking .Thats why they need to borrow money. Isn't it .
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Well that might be the case where you live and in whatever newspaper you read, as legions of the British press, politicians, establishment and conglomerates do enjoy telling poor people that everythings their fault.
I saw a stat recently which said 33% of adults in this country have less than £1,000 in savings. Those are the people who need to either borrow money or claim benefits even if they're out of work for a few weeks, I can't believe they're all just scumbags.
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(, I can't believe they're all just scumbags.)
No I don't think they all are either ,what I do say is that to many are apathetic ,it's easier to buy a a takeaway for £20 than it is to cook a proper meal for £10 .
It's easier to have an extra 10 minutes in bed and take a taxi to school or work in a morning ,than to get up early walk there ,and save the £5 fare .
Don't believe me ? Look at the number of takeaways in your local area . We have a choice of twenty within a 5 minute car ride .
They spend money needlessly and are in financial trouble as soon as the car or washing machine breaks down ,that's why short term loan companies prosper.
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Don't believe me ? Look at the number of takeaways in your local area . We have a choice of twenty within a 5 minute car ride .
Takeaway food is probably the one thing not commandered by the internet, though I am surprised at the price of pizza.
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(Takeaway food is probably the one thing not commandered by the internet, though I am surprised at the price of pizza.)
Actually you can buy a pizza or a curry online and have it delivered ,the cost delivered is about £10 for one .
I buy mine from a well known supermarket ,morrisons .other supermarkets are available. A pizza costs about £2 ,a good curry about £4 .About a £1 ? To heat it . At least £5 saved .?
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So because you prefer £2 Pizza's then everyone else should do the same?
Life isn't entirely about saving money you know. No point being the richest man in the cemetary.
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(So because you prefer £2 Pizza's then everyone else should do the same?
Life isn't entirely about saving money you know. No point being the richest man in the cemetary.)
Absolutely right ,it's about sensible use of the money you've got ,and not borrowing money that you can't afford to repay ,and this from a man that's just blown £200 for a luxury hotel in the dales for one night for two .
It makes the the t,wife happy but does nothing for me ,an average tasting pint of beer cost £4 tha knows .No take aways for me this week ,bread and dripping only ,perhaps without the dripping ?
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Only yesterday I was told that the two sons of a relative's ex-partner and their girlfriends are all going on holiday to Spain. The point is, not one of them works, so they go courtesy of the benefits system we all pay tax to fund. And yes, they all smoke, drink, have expensive mobile phones etc.
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I'm sure that happens ,but really it needs a new post of its own .this post is about the rights and wrongs of pay day loans .
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Only yesterday I was told that the two sons of a relative's ex-partner and their girlfriends are all going on holiday to Spain. The point is, not one of them works, so they go courtesy of the benefits system we all pay tax to fund. And yes, they all smoke, drink, have expensive mobile phones etc.
Something there does not tally. Benefits for fit single adults are at peunury level.
The basic rates of benefit for 'son and girlfiriend' couple, even if they're concealing the reationship, would be around £130 per week for food, fuel clothing etc etc. Tax credits for kids would push it up some but I'm guessing they're either working the balck economy or fiddling.
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Come on guys ,these borrowers are so feckless ,useless .they can't even keep to the simplest of agreements . Again I'd say would you lend them your own money ?
Of course some fit that stereotype.
Many, many more are victims of circumstance.
Most of us here are in relatively secure employment or on pensions. If we get an unexpected bill for the car then savings, overdrafts and credit cards will absorb the shock.
Plenty of folks out there don't have that advantage. Minimum wage insecure jobs, quasi-self employment (like Addison Lee drivers) and recession deny access to financial services. Funnily enough banks don't give overdrafts if you've no secure income and credit cards have useless limits.
Couple of weeks unwaged on the sick and however much you shop at Aldi and cook from basics the there's a gap to payday. No option but Wonga and the like. One more disaster and you cannot keep their payment schedule.
The rest follows.
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(Of course some fit that stereotype.
Many, many more are victims of circumstance.)
Hi bromptonaught ,I think your too generous in your description of the financial responsibility , of many of the borrowers of this type of finance .
I would still say that to many are reckless and careless in their financial dealings .
As an example ,do you remember a few years ago the Tories pushing the right to buy for council tenants ,in theory a great idea .
For years these local authority tenants had paid their rent religiously ,once a fortnight , often in cash at a local rent office .As soon as they had to pay a monthly mortgage they began to default .A friend of mine owns twenty ex council properties that he bought either from auctions or from the owners .In six of the houses he owns ,the original owners rent from him .They could afford the mortgage but didn't seem to want the responsibility of ownership ,and now pay more in rent !
They're like children with to much chocolate
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I still think that as with our Islamic community you're relying on a stereotypes rather than reality at the sharp end. News headlines just today include 'unprcedented' decline in people's real incomes since 2008
It's 30 years since Maggie T sold off Council Houses. My recollection was how quickly the sold off houses acquired new doors/windows etc from very houseproud new owners.
Of course ex council property has always sold at a discount to privately built stuff so subsequent buyers only just able to stretch to a mortgage were likley to be buyers when ex teneants moved on. Plenty of such buyers are now in trouble for same reasons I mentioned yesterday falling incomes, life without resort to the middle class crutch of overdraft and credit cards. If/when interest rates revert to normal there will be many many more.
Sale and rentback are more common than you think (and by no means limited to ex LA tenants).
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My thoughts exactly, Bromp.
As regards the sale of council houses, the evidence is nearby if I look for it, in the New Town of Hemel Hempstead. The sold-on houses are generally better tended - indeed, I bought one some years ago and lived in it for a while before letting it out; I'm glad to say my tenants take a pride in it, which is often not the case.
Currently, social housing from housing associations tends still to be available to buy at a good discount, subject to various conditions.
But of course things have changed during the recession.
I still hate the idea of payday loans and feel the companies are out to exploit their clients, relying on human weakness and the influence of consumerism. I was brought up never to get into debt, apart from taking out a mortgage, and if I couldn't afford something I just didn't have it.
Without wishing to appear arrogant, I would say it's a pity that view isn't more widespread. Is owning a flat-screen TV a basic human right? A smartphone? Going on holiday? A current model of car? For some, apparently, it is, and they get themselves into a terrible financial mess because of it.
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(It's 30 years since Maggie T sold off Council Houses. My recollection was how quickly the sold off houses acquired new doors/windows etc from very houseproud new owners.)
My recollection was how to many of these new owners failed to pay the mortgage ,even though it was less than the rent they had paid previously .
I remember one tenant ,previous owner ,telling me how pleased he was to receive just over £5000 back from the sale of his property to his landlord ,who was then renting it back to him .
He didn't seem to grasp that the only thing he would ever have of any real value had just slipped from his grasp .But he had gained a new second hand car and had a fortnight in Spain .He seemed happy and is still living in the same property 15 years later .
I wonder if he's a wonga user .Does he fit the profile ?
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Just one point MT did not instigate the purchase or selling of Council houses what she did was make the process a lot easier .
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There is such a shortage of houses that young people can't afford the deposit to buy one.
Governments should build more affordable houses but they won't .The private builder is in it for profit they are not a soclal service.Often they buy land and sit on it untill prices rise.
I think it is different in Germany Collos, citizens buy a house to live in for the rest of their lives,in the UK it is looked at a way to make money.
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Very true most people in Germany buy houses for the purpose they were designed for in the UK it seems that if you cannot make money out of them its a bad buy.
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Just one point MT did not instigate the purchase or selling of Council houses what she did was make the process a lot easier .
On a point of historial accuracy that is of course true. Some Councils were prepared to sell Council houses before 1980. Requiring them to do so as part of a national scheme was a key part of the 1979 Tory Manifesto and marked the start of a dash to buy.
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I remember one tenant ,previous owner ,telling me how pleased he was to receive just over £5000 back from the sale of his property to his landlord ,who was then renting it back to him . He didn't seem to grasp that the only thing he would ever have of any real value had just slipped from his grasp .
Mortgage less than rent was I suppose possible if the sale was at full discount. However the payments would have risen sharply during Thatcher's monetarist phase as interest rates were jacked up towards 15%.
Also, as now, it was a time when businesses were going bust (also down to high interest rates) and 3million in the dole queue. If as I recall you're in the Yorkshire textiles district then closures etc hit particularly hard as cheap imports flooded the market.
Edited by Bromptonaut on 15/06/2013 at 17:10
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( Mortgage less than rent was I suppose possible if the sale was at full discount. However the payments would have risen sharply during Thatcher's monetarist phase as interest rates were jacked up towards 15%.
Also, as now, it was a time when businesses were going bust (also down to high interest rates) and 3million in the dole queue. If as I recall you're in the Yorkshire textiles district then closures etc hit particularly hard as cheap imports flooded the market. )
Hi bromptonaught as ever your selective in your use of information .I remember the 15% mortgage rate ,it lasted just three months .Relatively high rates lasted just two years before sanity returned to the market .The interest rates weren't a major cause of the failure of former tenants to pay their mortgages .
The failure of West Yorkshire businesses ,textiles ,steel etc were caused in part by high interest rates .But we're largely caused by the failure of privately owned textile and steel companies to reinvest in new , more efficient machinery and better products .The owners and directors of these companies lacked the business skills of their Victorian forefathers .
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Tony,
At least I'm using some facts and not stereotype reinforced by anecdotal evidence.
UK interest rates can be viewed in chart form at:
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/interest-rate
If you set the start date at 1971 and end at 86 you've a reasonable overview of Thatcher monetarist years and immediate preceding. Rates were stable until 71/2 after which they fluctuated wildly following collapse of 'Bretton Woods' and currency in free float.
It's pretty clear that, whatever the semantics of how long 15% lasted, the first Thatcher govt was a period of high rates for an unprecedented peiod of time.
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By playing on our naturally greedy attitudes, at a stroke the Thatcher Govt. disempowered the 'working' classes....by making them financially vulnerable.
If you own your home [mortgaged to the hilt?] you are compelled to be compliant.....to whatever the govt.-of-the-day choses.
The 'good-times' are over.....?
And now, the property market is overflowing with re-possessed homes...especially in the less- financially- affluent areas.
I am not in the least surprised the likes of Wonga are flourishing. All over the country ordinary people are struggling to make ends meet. This happened before, in the '70's.
In many ways I am lucky..I have zero in the way of debt. I owe nothing whatsoever.
But my lifestyle would not suit 95% of this forum, for starters. [pizza? Yuch!]
I once owned property...but such is the fickleness of life, marriages that went wrong, etc...all that was gained pretty much vanished.
When your wife walks out, so does the dreams of property investment.
When three of them walk out, it's a struggle!
But we all start out on these things with the best of intentions.
So, now I rent. I live somewhere I think is nice...I have no worries about having to set aside for a new roof, or a new bathroom. I pay for a service.....and I have a good deal.
Any capital I have, I can use for things other than sticking a [secure??} roof over my head.
I'm too old to re-enter the property market....and probably won't live long enough to reap any benefit anyhow.
But it would be nice to be encouraged to enter into a long-term lease?
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Live is what it is.Pizzas why not they can be healthy.I feel sorry fore the younger generation trying to start in the property market.Big deposit and lots of interest to pay back before you own your house.These pay day loans are like sharks preying on the vunerable similair to what banks do.
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Sorry to resurrect this, but i didn't see the thread till today.
Theres an elephant in the room and as usual no one wants to say, i will.
Housing is in such short supply in this country and as a result way overpriced because unlimited deliberately planned immigration has seen the population rise by around half a million every year for the past 15 years.
Thats not the only reason of course and housing costs have risen sharply in years gone by, but generally in times of high inflation where housing costs and wages the proletariat can realistically earn grow similarly..
Until immigration is substantially stemmed, and no one in the present govts has the wherewithall to even start to slow it, then this problem will only get worse, wages for ordinary people are still at 1997 levels indeed many are earning less than then thanks to their jobs being oversubscribed by immigrants among other things.
Indeed as members of the EU we have little if any control over our own borders anyway.
The big problem with this is that whilst so many people are addicted to valuing everything in their lives by the value of their house(s) then they really can't see anything other than £££signs, so are quite happy to vote turkey like for their very own Christmasses.
Yes this post makes uncomfortable reading doesn't it, almost an 'ism or an 'ist except i'm neither of the two though am a realist.
Until very recently when supposedly middle class or white collar jobs became outsourced and lost forever then unchecked immigration only really affected the working class...who it must be said have and continue to vote in legion for their own destruction even demonstrate for more of the same. When if ever the millions of none jobs are lost if ever we get a govt preppared to actually cut costs to stop the downward spiral, then those who have no idea what has happened will get a rude awakening.
Even those unaffected by the housing or jobs situation cannot have failed to notice that the NHS and education and the police are failing to cope, even the roads can't cope and we have ever faster water shortages in the south east.
You cannot increase the population of a small island/house/tent without massive investment and massive expansion of all services that the increases will need....and until it affects the rich and privelidged who make these decisions and profit from it either by cheap labour or cushy lucrative careers as apparatchiks these things will not change.
Some of us who have worked and serviced the industrial sector watched industry destroyed many years ago, replaced by 'service industries'...was there ever a more inappropriate title. Well reality has come the country cannot survive by you and i charging each other for cleaning our offices or doing each others admin with the govt taking a slice off each payment and adding ever higher costs for each non job, then paying those replaced to do nothing, spending £billions in foreign aid plus fighting ridiculous wars and still importing millions of economically inactive (in nett contributor terms) migrants.
It doesn't add up it never will, Wonga and other parasites exist and grow strong where honour and decency and fair play have long been forgotten.
Edited by gordonbennet on 16/07/2013 at 13:03
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Sorry to resurrect this, but i didn't see the thread till today.
Theres an elephant in the room and as usual no one wants to say, i will.
Housing is in such short supply in this country and as a result way overpriced because unlimited deliberately planned immigration has seen the population rise by around half a million every year for the past 15 years.
Thats not the only reason of course and housing costs have risen sharply in years gone by, but generally in times of high inflation where housing costs and wages the proletariat can realistically earn grow similarly..
While immigration cannot be removed from the equation it's not the main cause of our national overcrowding. Nor is national overcrowding the overwhelming reason for our nation's problems.
Net inward migration (the figure that matters in this context) over the last 15 years runs way below the figure you suggest. It bumps around a bit, peaking at over 200k in 2004 to 2006 then dropping back again. Much of the EU immigration is cyclical as people return home after two years but are replaced by others. There are pressure points in some areas, more your end of the county out to the Fens than mine where there are just pockets - eg Poles renting round Jimmy's end.
Before Eastern European immigration took off the pressure was already there form increasing numbers of households reflecting family breakdown etc.
The real problem housing wise is three and a half decades of laissez faire let the market rule new building and Nimby councils blocking needed development. There are some signs of the Nimby problem being tackled as the Growth and Infrastructure Act 2013 allows governmment to take over planning functions of failing councils. How that power will be used remains to be seen but I suspect in practice it will favour governments friends rather than the real need.
Government now needs to step in while borrowing costs are low with a massive expansion of public housing, replacing all the properties sold off and as many again. Meanwhile, if developers won't develop land they're holding then a tax charge of say 5% of value annually should be applied.
Wonga is a symptom of general insecurity - a massive chunk of the population are one missed paycheck from disaster. For others it's a missed shift. Until we rebuild trade unions outwith the public sector the screwing down of labour rates will continue.
Edited by Bromptonaut on 16/07/2013 at 13:51
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Slight thread drift! A massive chunk of the population are a 1% rise in BOBR away from losing their homes.
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( Government now needs to step in while borrowing costs are low with a massive expansion of public housing, replacing all the properties sold off and as many again. )
Socialist rubbish ! The most liberating thing that's happened to a working man , or woman in the last 40 years is the opportunity to own his own property .
Why would any sane person want to live in social housing rather than be a house owner ,councils in many areas are now moving tenants from homes they have occupied , and paid for, for forty years and more ,into smaller flats and houses ,often away from friends and families .
When you take out a mortgage it usually lasts for 25 years ,tenants pay rent until they die . house owners have a great asset to pass onto their children and grandchildren.
many tenants prefer to rent from private landlords ,rather than local councils ,they prefer to live alongside people who care about their homes and environment ,rather than live on sink hole local authority estates .
I appreciate that there is a desperate need for more housing in the uk ,but social housing is not the way forward ,private developers should be encouraged by the government , to build more homes ,particularly by underwriting a mortgage for the first 10 years for first time buyers .If a home buyer defaults ,then the property can be sold on to another first time buyer .
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I'm not going to get drawn into what I suspect is the deeper agenda here, but will just make a few relevant points:
The belief that home-ownership is the right way to go is, by and large, a British obsession. Most people in continental Europe are quite happy to rent.
I don't see why there can't be a mixture of social housing (often involving a very favourable purchase option, which can be a real help in getting started as a home-owner), private landlords and private ownership.
Just for the record, my own experience spans pretty much all the options: living in social housing, private renting, home ownership and being a private landlord.
Edited by FP on 18/07/2013 at 19:29
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(The belief that home-ownership is the right way to go is, by and large, a British obsession. Most people in continental Europe are quite happy to rent.)
Why ? A mortgage lasts 25 or 30 years ,then you own a valuable asset , that will benefit your children with carefull planning .
Rent , you pay for ever with no asset .i don't believe it's possible to make a case for renting ,unless of course your a landlord ,whether in Europe or the uk.
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(The belief that home-ownership is the right way to go is, by and large, a British obsession. Most people in continental Europe are quite happy to rent.) Why ? A mortgage lasts 25 or 30 years ,then you own a valuable asset , that will benefit your children with carefull planning . Rent , you pay for ever with no asset .i don't believe it's possible to make a case for renting ,unless of course your a landlord ,whether in Europe or the uk.
Because for a significant number of people mortgage borrowing is impossible.
Apart from affordability other factors include precarious employment, a need for mobility, health and age.
A house is somewhere to live. Treating it as an investment with appreciating value is a peculiarly British habit. It's now driving our politics and planning to extent that new development is blocked for numby type reasons that boil down to 'the vlaue of my property will be reduced.
Renting and investing spare cash in equities is an equally valid route to benefitting your kids.
Sink estates which you mention earlier are not inevitable. Most are in developments knocked up in the sixties following massive political corruption between major builders, certain of MacMillan's ministers and local councillors bought off with drink and lunches. Substandard, leaky, reliant on ever bust lifts of course they became sinks - nobody with a choice would touch the places.
Now if we look at suburban social housing. Houses with gardens. Different model altogether yes?
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